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XFool
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Re: Trump

#236857

Postby XFool » July 15th, 2019, 5:49 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
XFool wrote:
BobbyD wrote:

Hey look! He could be right - our recent ex-ambassador there seemed to agree. :)

Trump has now doubled-down on his racist tweets by suggesting the congresswomen he abused should apologise to him.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-tweet-racist-aoc-ilhan-omar-israel-tlaib-pressley-democrats-response-a9005166.html

Donald Trump has suggested the congresswomen who were targets of a series of racist tweets he posted should apologise to “the Office of the President”.

OK. Fair enough. Why don't they?

"Mr President. we wish to publicly apologise for the chaotic, inept and unprofessional state of the current administration of our government, which is bringing our country disrespect and scorn around the world. Mr President, what are YOU going to do about it?"

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Re: Trump

#236947

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » July 16th, 2019, 8:36 am

Yes Trump is a moron. His recent tweets relating to "the squad" i.e. AOC et al, reinforce that view.

However, I believe there's an agenda here:

1. He's rallying his base, up for 2020, i.e. traditional (and white) America against socialism/multiculturalism etc.

2. More shrewdly. He's aggravating fractures in the Dems between people like AOC, who want to impeach DJT asap, and more moderate Dems like NP who don't. Nancy wants to avoid an impeachment attempt since it will generate even more publicity up to 2020, and it will backfire anyway, since it's basically impossible to impeach a POTUS.

Does anyone agree with my analysis, i.e. a more intelligent+manipulative Trump, versus a more stupid, impulsive one?

Matt

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Re: Trump

#236952

Postby Quint » July 16th, 2019, 9:38 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:Yes Trump is a moron. His recent tweets relating to "the squad" i.e. AOC et al, reinforce that view.

However, I believe there's an agenda here:

1. He's rallying his base, up for 2020, i.e. traditional (and white) America against socialism/multiculturalism etc.

2. More shrewdly. He's aggravating fractures in the Dems between people like AOC, who want to impeach DJT asap, and more moderate Dems like NP who don't. Nancy wants to avoid an impeachment attempt since it will generate even more publicity up to 2020, and it will backfire anyway, since it's basically impossible to impeach a POTUS.

Does anyone agree with my analysis, i.e. a more intelligent+manipulative Trump, versus a more stupid, impulsive one?

Matt

I think you have it right.

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Re: Trump

#236959

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » July 16th, 2019, 10:32 am

ursaminortaur wrote:Donald Trump has suggested the congresswomen who were targets of a series of racist tweets he posted should apologise to “the Office of the President”.
.
.
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Having earlier complained about the response to his post, he launched a renewed attack on a group he described as “Radical Left Congresswomen”, widely assumed to refer to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib and Ayanna Pressley.

Shortly before 7am in Washington DC, Mr Trump tweeted: “When will the Radical Left Congresswomen apologize to our Country, the people of Israel and even to the Office of the President, for the foul language they have used, and the terrible things they have said. So many people are angry at them & their horrible & disgusting actions!”

He followed it up 48 minutes later by adding: “If Democrats want to unite around the foul language & racist hatred spewed from the mouths and actions of these very unpopular & unrepresentative Congresswomen, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I can tell you that they have made Israel feel abandoned by the US.”

We have Donald's son-in-law in explanation of the frequent mentions of a particular country in the Middle East.

A lot of Trump's crap is choreographed by Jared. Follow the mentions of the term "the kid" in here.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/s ... ition-team

Matt

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Re: Trump

#236967

Postby GoSeigen » July 16th, 2019, 10:58 am

ursaminortaur wrote:
Shortly before 7am in Washington DC, Mr Trump tweeted: “When will the Radical Left Congresswomen apologize to our Country, the people of Israel and even to the Office of the President, for the foul language they have used, and the terrible things they have said. So many people are angry at them & their horrible & disgusting actions!”


This truly is Political Correctness gone mad! People should be free to say what they like.

GS

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Re: Trump

#236968

Postby SalvorHardin » July 16th, 2019, 11:01 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:Does anyone agree with my analysis, i.e. a more intelligent+manipulative Trump, versus a more stupid, impulsive one?

Definitely. Trump is using the Democrats' own playbook against them. There's a split in the Democratic party, between the sensible wing of the party and the socialist wing, and he's intent on widening that split. Sooner or later the candidates for the Democratic nomination will have to choose sides and you can be sure that Trump will throw petrol on that particular fire. All of this is what they call "Battlefield Preparation" for the 2020 elections.

For years the Democrats have increasingly relied upon identify politics. Sub-divide America into numerous groups, then assemble a coalition of some of these groups whilst defining those who aren't part of their coalition as evil. The 1% vs. the 99% garbage is a big part of this (does anyone seriously think that those in the [2%,3%] bracket are as badly off as those in the [99%,100%] bracket?). Trump is pulling something similar.

Trump has even got some Democrats refusing to condemn the recent attack on an ICE facility in Tacoma, by a Democrat supporter who believed the nonsense about concentration camps that they've been pushing, something which hasn't exactly been heavily covered by the media. That isn't going to play at all well in middle America for the Democrats.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/a ... -coverage/

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... omb-attack

Meantime America's economy is booming, growing at a rate that the EU can only dream of, and those of us who invest there are doing very nicely :D

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Re: Trump

#236971

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » July 16th, 2019, 11:21 am

SalvorHardin wrote:Meantime America's economy is booming, growing at a rate that the EU can only dream of, and those of us who invest there are doing very nicely :D

Sure, the only fly on the ointment being that it's Federal Purse empties itself every 6 months or so, and apparently the US then has to raise it's debt ceiling fairly often:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1UA250

Whilst I'm no expert in these matters; however I believe it's comparable with permanently increasing one's overdraft.

Perhaps it's not all roses over there?

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Re: Trump

#236974

Postby BellaHubby » July 16th, 2019, 11:28 am

GoSeigen wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
Shortly before 7am in Washington DC, Mr Trump tweeted: “When will the Radical Left Congresswomen apologize to our Country, the people of Israel and even to the Office of the President, for the foul language they have used, and the terrible things they have said. So many people are angry at them & their horrible & disgusting actions!”


This truly is Political Correctness gone mad! People should be free to say what they like.

GS

In the vast majority of countries, people are free to say what they like. And we are free to judge Trump's comments as moronic. It is sad to see a president of the USA so lacking in class.

BH

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Re: Trump

#237161

Postby BobbyD » July 17th, 2019, 1:29 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:Yes Trump is a moron. His recent tweets relating to "the squad" i.e. AOC et al, reinforce that view.

However, I believe there's an agenda here:

1. He's rallying his base, up for 2020, i.e. traditional (and white) America against socialism/multiculturalism etc.

2. More shrewdly. He's aggravating fractures in the Dems between people like AOC, who want to impeach DJT asap, and more moderate Dems like NP who don't. Nancy wants to avoid an impeachment attempt since it will generate even more publicity up to 2020, and it will backfire anyway, since it's basically impossible to impeach a POTUS.

Does anyone agree with my analysis, i.e. a more intelligent+manipulative Trump, versus a more stupid, impulsive one?

Matt


I think point 2 is off. He is refocusing coverage of the Dems around 'The Squad', in much the same way that the conservatives like to talk about Corbyn rather than Labour. He has made them the story, and he has got the rest of the Dems to step behind them. Far from creating factions within the Dems he is getting them all to unite with their most extreme representatives in the centre of the frame, and that is the picture many people will carry with them in to the next elections. He's substituting the opponent he is facing for the opponent he would rather face, going through the photo album and pasting squad heads over all the pics of Nancy and Joe.

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Re: Trump

#237167

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » July 17th, 2019, 6:18 am

BobbyD wrote:I think point 2 is off. He is refocusing coverage of the Dems around 'The Squad', in much the same way that the conservatives like to talk about Corbyn rather than Labour. He has made them the story, and he has got the rest of the Dems to step behind them. Far from creating factions within the Dems he is getting them all to unite with their most extreme representatives in the centre of the frame, and that is the picture many people will carry with them in to the next elections. He's substituting the opponent he is facing for the opponent he would rather face, going through the photo album and pasting squad heads over all the pics of Nancy and Joe.

Yes, you're right.

He confirmed that here:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 1919102976

TBF As an presidential challenger he has more to fear from someone like Kamala Harris (or even AOC, but she is too young to stand) than the likes of NP or JB.

However, he has nothing to fear, IMHO, he'll win 2020. History has revealed that the only presidents to fail to get a 2nd term are those presiding over an economic recession at the time of election (e.g. Carter, Bush senior).

Matt

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Re: Trump

#237169

Postby BobbyD » July 17th, 2019, 6:40 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
TBF As an presidential challenger he has more to fear from someone like Kamala Harris (or even AOC, but she is too young to stand) than the likes of NP or JB.


If Biden were a better campaigner he'd be the perfect anti-Trump candidate. Old white dude without the race-baiting xenophobia, delusional flights of fancy, suspicious connections and 3am twitter rants. Same, same, same, different.

Would like to see Delaney pick up speed. Harris would be a bad bet. AOC if she could stand would be a liability, there's a reason Trump is promoting her and it's not because she is politically dangerous in a national poll, it's because even being associated with her is going to hurt you in a national poll.

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Re: Trump

#237223

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » July 17th, 2019, 10:51 am

BobbyD wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
TBF As an presidential challenger he has more to fear from someone like Kamala Harris (or even AOC, but she is too young to stand) than the likes of NP or JB.


If Biden were a better campaigner he'd be the perfect anti-Trump candidate. Old white dude without the race-baiting xenophobia, delusional flights of fancy, suspicious connections and 3am twitter rants. Same, same, same, different.

Would like to see Delaney pick up speed. Harris would be a bad bet. AOC if she could stand would be a liability, there's a reason Trump is promoting her and it's not because she is politically dangerous in a national poll, it's because even being associated with her is going to hurt you in a national poll.

Well regardless, I think DJT is gonna win in 2020.

BTW I chat online to someone from Tennessee from time to time. She's very upbeat up about Pete Buttigieg. Personally I don't think the US is ready for a gay man as POTUS.

Why don't you rate Harris?

Matt

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Re: Trump

#237285

Postby BobbyD » July 17th, 2019, 4:40 pm

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:[Why don't you rate Harris?


For starters, electability. The democrats shouldn't need a great candidate to beat Trump. He is very popular with a fairly fixed proportion of the population, and very unpopular with everybody else. Trump will deliver Dems votes of colour and Liberal votes, they need a compelling but inoffensive candidate to pick up the other votes required. Vanilla in electoral terms in the US is White male. If you run a non-white woman against Trump then you are playing to Trump's strengths. You are already guaranteed to crush votes of colour and liberal votes, but you'll spend the whole election trying to unpaint yourself as the party of ethnic minorities and immigrants, or worse embracing the description, as Trump hammers on the theme remorselessly and defines the election in his most favourable terms.

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Re: Trump

#237301

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » July 17th, 2019, 5:49 pm

BobbyD wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:[Why don't you rate Harris?


For starters, electability. The democrats shouldn't need a great candidate to beat Trump. He is very popular with a fairly fixed proportion of the population, and very unpopular with everybody else. Trump will deliver Dems votes of colour and Liberal votes, they need a compelling but inoffensive candidate to pick up the other votes required. Vanilla in electoral terms in the US is White male. If you run a non-white woman against Trump then you are playing to Trump's strengths. You are already guaranteed to crush votes of colour and liberal votes, but you'll spend the whole election trying to unpaint yourself as the party of ethnic minorities and immigrants, or worse embracing the description, as Trump hammers on the theme remorselessly and defines the election in his most favourable terms.

Hmm.

Yeah - you take a completely opposite view on it to me! Like I said earlier I'm pretty sure he'll win 2020. For the reason I iterated earlier i.e

History has revealed that the only presidents to fail to get a 2nd term are those presiding over an economic recession at the time of election (e.g. Carter, Bush senior).

My view is unless the economy tanks real bad soon, he's back in. For the Dems to stand any chance at all against the Trump Economic Boom they really need someone very new, very different, very strong. In a nutshell I think they need another Obama really. They need radical not bland, it has to come close to a revolution[*], IMHO, for him not to get his second term.

Matt

* i.e. why I thought AOC (age excepting) is the closest.
Last edited by TheMotorcycleBoy on July 17th, 2019, 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump

#237303

Postby XFool » July 17th, 2019, 5:56 pm

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:Yes Trump is a moron. His recent tweets relating to "the squad" i.e. AOC et al, reinforce that view.

However, I believe there's an agenda here:

1. He's rallying his base, up for 2020, i.e. traditional (and white) America against socialism/multiculturalism etc.

2. More shrewdly. He's aggravating fractures in the Dems between people like AOC, who want to impeach DJT asap, and more moderate Dems like NP who don't. Nancy wants to avoid an impeachment attempt since it will generate even more publicity up to 2020, and it will backfire anyway, since it's basically impossible to impeach a POTUS.

Does anyone agree with my analysis, i.e. a more intelligent+manipulative Trump, versus a more stupid, impulsive one?

Yes.

I've no idea if Trump actually is 'racist', the point is he is quite happy to resort to racist type language to appeal to many of his support base (likely some of them are racist) and to further his agenda and split the country. He just doesn't care, as he has amply demonstrated on many previous occasions.

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Re: Trump

#237306

Postby BobbyD » July 17th, 2019, 6:09 pm

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:[Why don't you rate Harris?


For starters, electability. The democrats shouldn't need a great candidate to beat Trump. He is very popular with a fairly fixed proportion of the population, and very unpopular with everybody else. Trump will deliver Dems votes of colour and Liberal votes, they need a compelling but inoffensive candidate to pick up the other votes required. Vanilla in electoral terms in the US is White male. If you run a non-white woman against Trump then you are playing to Trump's strengths. You are already guaranteed to crush votes of colour and liberal votes, but you'll spend the whole election trying to unpaint yourself as the party of ethnic minorities and immigrants, or worse embracing the description, as Trump hammers on the theme remorselessly and defines the election in his most favourable terms.

Hmm.

Yeah - your take a completely different view on it to me. Like I said earlier I'm pretty sure he'll win 2020. For the reason I iterated earlier i.e

History has revealed that the only presidents to fail to get a 2nd term are those presiding over an economic recession at the time of election (e.g. Carter, Bush senior).

My view is unless the economy tanks real bad soon, he's back in. For the Dems to stand any chance at all against the Trump Economic Boom they really need someone very new, very different, very strong. In a nutshell I think they need another Obama really. They need radical not bland, it has to come close to a revolution[*], IMHO, for him not to get his second term.

Matt

* i.e. why I thought AOC (age excepting) is the closest.


I'm not saying Trump won't win, I'm saying that he is very reliant on a relatively small proportion of the electorate, the Dems job is to turn the rest of the electorate's dislike of him in to votes, you don't do that by going hard left you do it by moving to the centre. You find a candidate most people find less embarrassing than Trump, and give them the choice.

Look how tight the range both Trump's approval and disapproval ratings are. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/tr ... l-ratings/

Trump really could shoot someone on 5th Street without losing too many votes, but equally he is highly unlikely to gain many unless you run a candidate who people think will do them harm, like say AOC. You beat Trump with reliability, stability and moderation. Take the empty ground, don't do what most political parties do and see their opponents move to the extreme as an opportunity to move away from the centre themselves.

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Re: Trump

#237504

Postby zico » July 18th, 2019, 12:47 pm

"Send her back" made an appearance at Trump's latest rally yesterday. Trump may have gained in the short-term by forcing the Democrats to stand behind 4 more extreme members of their party, but will Americans really be comfortable with the idea that non-white US citizens criticising the USA should be "repatriated"? If they really are comfortable enough to re-elect Trump on this kind of platform, the USA is a long way from the country it professes itself to be.

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Re: Trump

#237530

Postby staffordian » July 18th, 2019, 1:56 pm

zico wrote:"Send her back" made an appearance at Trump's latest rally yesterday. Trump may have gained in the short-term by forcing the Democrats to stand behind 4 more extreme members of their party, but will Americans really be comfortable with the idea that non-white US citizens criticising the USA should be "repatriated"? If they really are comfortable enough to re-elect Trump on this kind of platform, the USA is a long way from the country it professes itself to be.

I came to that conclusion a few years ago. First Obama sticking his oar into our Brexit debate, after previously appealing to base nationalistic instincts with his bullying posturing towards BP and their compensation over the Gulf oil spill.

And now, of course, the last few years with Trump, from his 2016 campaign to his years as POTUS.

Whilst one might expect such bullying racist mysogonistic behaviour from a thin skinned egotistic failed businessman, the fact that Republicans condone and suport such behaviour and a good percentage of US voters are happy to support it is quite reveling and disturbing IMHO.

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Re: Trump

#237583

Postby BobbyD » July 18th, 2019, 4:39 pm

zico wrote:"Send her back" made an appearance at Trump's latest rally yesterday. Trump may have gained in the short-term by forcing the Democrats to stand behind 4 more extreme members of their party, but will Americans really be comfortable with the idea that non-white US citizens criticising the USA should be "repatriated"? If they really are comfortable enough to re-elect Trump on this kind of platform, the USA is a long way from the country it professes itself to be.


Again look at his approval and disapproval... It's not something all Americans will stand behind, but if the Dems don't run a moderate unifying candidate it is something enough Americans will stand behind. If you move past the people who agree with it, the people who find it distasteful, or embaraasing, to those who are outraged enough to vote on the back of it, they already vote Dem, he isn't alienating anybody who was a potential Trump 2020 voter, but he is locking in and whipping up his base with such rhetoric.

Coincidentally the second series of NPR's Bundyville podcast dropped this week covering the anti-government resistance, far right violence, Christian identity, white secession, a suicide bombing... https://longreads.com/bundyville/ I think it's a fair bet that a lot of the people who turn up in the investigation would be die hard Trump voters.

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Re: Trump

#237587

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » July 18th, 2019, 4:54 pm

I know several Yanks from online chatting. There's one guy originally from TX, but he's worked in various parts of the States since. He's actually in emigrated to Ireland now. But anyway, briefly he said this of the States right now:

The big problem is that half of the country want to progress, and embrace modern values and the other half want to return to the Fifties.

I used to "debate" in some Stateside political forums (a power tool + arboriculture site) and the attitudes, racist, selfish, parochial, misogynist etc. that I was exposed to really were off the scale. They (especially the Rednecks) are fiercely patriotic, even the nice moderates that I kept in touch with, will rarely except even the most objective criticism of the country and their values. So when DJT hugs the Stars and Stripes at rallies (although I'm sure he's being a little OTT), I can imagine that the swing voters will notice and reflect on "how well the economy is doing".

Matt


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