Page 3 of 3

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 12th, 2019, 9:08 am
by johnhemming
Wizard wrote:Exactly, so I assume you are in agreement that making a claim to know what motivated most leave voters is not credible?

To make a claim that immigration motivated the majority of people who voted leave (which is about a quarter of the voters) would require evidence from an opinion poll or something.

It doesn't really help.

a) Some leave voters were motivated by immigration as an issue
b) Some leave voters were not motivated by immigration as an issue.

Each category had a substantial number in it. The balance between the two I cannot myself suggest.

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 12th, 2019, 9:20 am
by Wizard
johnhemming wrote:
Wizard wrote:Exactly, so I assume you are in agreement that making a claim to know what motivated most leave voters is not credible?

To make a claim that immigration motivated the majority of people who voted leave (which is about a quarter of the voters) would require evidence from an opinion poll or something.

It doesn't really help.

a) Some leave voters were motivated by immigration as an issue
b) Some leave voters were not motivated by immigration as an issue.

Each category had a substantial number in it. The balance between the two I cannot myself suggest.

Completely agree! So statements by posters claiming to know the balance between a) and b) based on chatting to a few people down the pub last Thursday are unhelpful at best.

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 12th, 2019, 12:34 pm
by GoSeigen
johnhemming wrote:
Wizard wrote:Exactly, so I assume you are in agreement that making a claim to know what motivated most leave voters is not credible?

To make a claim that immigration motivated the majority of people who voted leave (which is about a quarter of the voters) would require evidence from an opinion poll or something.

It doesn't really help.

a) Some leave voters were motivated by immigration as an issue
b) Some leave voters were not motivated by immigration as an issue.

Each category had a substantial number in it. The balance between the two I cannot myself suggest.


The key argument of Brexiters, especially "no second referendum" Brexiters is that there was no variation at all in why people voted. They all just wanted to Leave the EU. As long as that happens they will all be happy. e.g. That's why the ERG are happy to back May's leave deal.

Oh wait....

GS

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 12th, 2019, 4:48 pm
by Itsallaguess
Lanark wrote:
The elephant in the room with Brexit is immigration.

Most voters don't really care about NI or the customs arrangements or the single market, the people who voted for Brexit were primarily voting for lower immigration.

Now since 2016 both Labour and the Conservatives have announced they will increase immigration post brexit.

Theres a lot of bleating "Oh we couldnt possibly have a second referendum that wouldnt be upholding result of the first one, what about democracy" well as both the major parties have already turned their back on lowering immigration, I really don't see the difference.
If we are going to have higher immigration anyway we may as well stay in the EU and keep all the other benefits.


No mention at all of the word 'uncontrolled' anywhere in that lot that I can see, other than within the links you've provided to the Labour and Conservative articles, which both parties seem to be wanting to address, to give much more prominence to skilled immigration, rather than the 'uncontrolled' immigration that the UK is currently exposed to...

Your complete lack of recognition that, where immigration was an issue with Brexit voters, it was predominantly regarding uncontrolled immigration, speaks volumes, I think...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 12th, 2019, 6:26 pm
by SteMiS
Itsallaguess wrote:
Lanark wrote:
The elephant in the room with Brexit is immigration.

Most voters don't really care about NI or the customs arrangements or the single market, the people who voted for Brexit were primarily voting for lower immigration.

Now since 2016 both Labour and the Conservatives have announced they will increase immigration post brexit.

Theres a lot of bleating "Oh we couldnt possibly have a second referendum that wouldnt be upholding result of the first one, what about democracy" well as both the major parties have already turned their back on lowering immigration, I really don't see the difference.
If we are going to have higher immigration anyway we may as well stay in the EU and keep all the other benefits.

No mention at all of the word 'uncontrolled' anywhere in that lot that I can see, other than within the links you've provided to the Labour and Conservative articles, which both parties seem to be wanting to address, to give much more prominence to skilled immigration, rather than the 'uncontrolled' immigration that the UK is currently exposed to...

Your complete lack of recognition that, where immigration was an issue with Brexit voters, it was predominantly regarding uncontrolled immigration, speaks volumes, I think...

I won't speak for you because clearly you know your own motivation better than me, but the idea that Brexit voters in general were just against the concept of uncontrolled immigration than the actual presence of immigrants is (in my opinion obviously) just revisionism.

Let me quote one Brexiteer on these boards - " I voted Brexit because i'd prefer to live in a Country where we don't need to pander to others because we are somehow racist, whenever we speak up about immigration. I'd prefer to have neighbours that talk to me because they want to, not because they feel embarrassed when I initiate a conversation on the stairs. I voted Brexit because it was easy, for me, to get into the schools that I wanted to when I was young, because I was bright. Good luck with that now. I voted Brexit because when I go for lunch, I pass more people speaking in a foreign language than I do English.".

Plenty of other comments during the referendum about scrounging foreigners, people coming just for benefits, Big Issue sellers, immigrants causing housing shortages, shortages of school places, congestion, immigrants making it difficult to get a doctors appointment, suppressing wages, taking jobs That's not about the potential impact of uncontrolled immigration, it's about the perception of actual immigration. It's a perception some on the Leave side were only too happy to play up to.

I can understand why a reasonable Brexit voter (which I presume you are) might be embarrassed about these sort of views, held by a significant number of people supporting their cause, but held they were...

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 12th, 2019, 6:43 pm
by Itsallaguess
SteMiS wrote:
I won't speak for you because clearly you know your own motivation better than me, but the idea that Brexit voters in general were just against the concept of uncontrolled immigration than the actual presence of immigrants is (in my opinion obviously) just revisionism.


Not a debate I want to enter into - we've all been round those houses before, and nothing new will come from it.

What I did want to acknowledge was that Lanark simply using the word 'immigration' to describe both what 'most people' were bothered about if they voted to Leave, and also when saying that 'both parties have said that they'll increase immigration post Brexit', doesn't at all tell the whole story without considering the use of the words 'uncontrolled' and 'controlled'...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 12th, 2019, 7:02 pm
by ursaminortaur
Itsallaguess wrote:
SteMiS wrote:
I won't speak for you because clearly you know your own motivation better than me, but the idea that Brexit voters in general were just against the concept of uncontrolled immigration than the actual presence of immigrants is (in my opinion obviously) just revisionism.


Not a debate I want to enter into - we've all been round those houses before, and nothing new will come from it.

What I did want to acknowledge was that Lanark simply using the word 'immigration' to describe both what 'most people' were bothered about if they voted to Leave, and also when saying that 'both parties have said that they'll increase immigration post Brexit', doesn't at all tell the whole story without considering the use of the words 'uncontrolled' and 'controlled'...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


Unfortunately the word "uncontrolled" has often been used in a perjorative sense to give the impression that such immigration was an uncontrolled flood. Whereas in reality the levels of "uncontrolled" immigration from the EU has consistently been lower than the controlled immigration from other parts of the world.

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 13th, 2019, 3:48 pm
by gnawsome
Whereas in reality the levels of "uncontrolled" immigration from the EU has consistently been lower than the controlled immigration from other parts of the world.


The proportion of EU population being somewhat smaller than RoW population - is that not to be anticipated?

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 13th, 2019, 4:26 pm
by djbenedict
gnawsome wrote:
Whereas in reality the levels of "uncontrolled" immigration from the EU has consistently been lower than the controlled immigration from other parts of the world.


The proportion of EU population being somewhat smaller than RoW population - is that not to be anticipated?


Not when you consider that the people of the EU are richer (on average), closer (on average) and freely entitled to come to the UK, surely?

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 13th, 2019, 4:28 pm
by chas49
gnawsome wrote:
Whereas in reality the levels of "uncontrolled" immigration from the EU has consistently been lower than the controlled immigration from other parts of the world.


The proportion of EU population being somewhat smaller than RoW population - is that not to be anticipated?


Well, not necessarily. It was always open to the government (of any hue) to severely limit (or control) immigration from the RoW so that it was less than the uncontrolled immigration from the EU. So, if controlled immigration was greater than uncontrolled, that says more about the controls than the respective populations, I think.

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 13th, 2019, 5:16 pm
by BobbyD
chas49 wrote:Well, not necessarily. It was always open to the government (of any hue) to severely limit (or control) immigration from the RoW so that it was less than the uncontrolled immigration from the EU. So, if controlled immigration was greater than uncontrolled, that says more about the controls than the respective populations, I think.


Yeah, but we didn't have a superstar like May in charge of controlling controlled immigr... erm...

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 13th, 2019, 5:18 pm
by BobbyD
djbenedict wrote:
gnawsome wrote:
Whereas in reality the levels of "uncontrolled" immigration from the EU has consistently been lower than the controlled immigration from other parts of the world.


The proportion of EU population being somewhat smaller than RoW population - is that not to be anticipated?


Not when you consider that the people of the EU are richer (on average), closer (on average) and freely entitled to come to the UK, surely?


Perhaps we could settle this Brexit mess by getting the EU to tow Europe further off the UK's coast so as to make immigration from the EU as logistically complicated as it is from the resat of the world? Then we could remain, and recognise the full four freedoms.

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 13th, 2019, 5:39 pm
by Wizard
BobbyD wrote:
djbenedict wrote:
gnawsome wrote:
The proportion of EU population being somewhat smaller than RoW population - is that not to be anticipated?


Not when you consider that the people of the EU are richer (on average), closer (on average) and freely entitled to come to the UK, surely?


Perhaps we could settle this Brexit mess by getting the EU to tow Europe further off the UK's coast so as to make immigration from the EU as logistically complicated as it is from the resat of the world? Then we could remain, and recognise the full four freedoms.

Or, people could stop trying characterise everyone that voted leave as having done so only because of immigration. You could tow the UK into the Indian Ocean or tow it across the channel and create a land border with France, it would not change my view (and I suspect that of many others) that it would still be better for the UK to leave the EU.

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 13th, 2019, 10:52 pm
by gnawsome
djbenedict wrote:
gnawsome wrote:
Whereas in reality the levels of "uncontrolled" immigration from the EU has consistently been lower than the controlled immigration from other parts of the world.


The proportion of EU population being somewhat smaller than RoW population - is that not to be anticipated?


Not when you consider that the people of the EU are richer (on average), closer (on average) and freely entitled to come to the UK, surely?


But remember that theRoW have a greater imperative in many cases

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 14th, 2019, 12:18 am
by BobbyD
gnawsome wrote:
djbenedict wrote:
gnawsome wrote:
The proportion of EU population being somewhat smaller than RoW population - is that not to be anticipated?


Not when you consider that the people of the EU are richer (on average), closer (on average) and freely entitled to come to the UK, surely?


But remember that theRoW have a greater imperative in many cases


...and lots of other parts of the ROW to go to...

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 14th, 2019, 9:27 am
by Stonge
Immigration after Brexit will not be a problem. Nobody will want to come here, to a failed state.

8-)

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 14th, 2019, 11:09 am
by mike
Stonge wrote:Immigration after Brexit will not be a problem. Nobody will want to come here, to a failed state.

In an interview in El Pais, Mark Rutte tended to confirm this as he opined in resonse to the "statement-question" Some people think that the EU will be weakened by the departure of the United Kingdom.
It is the UK that will be weakened. It is already weakening; it is on the wane compared to two or three years ago. It is going to become a middling economy stuck in the Atlantic Ocean. It is neither the US nor the EU. It is too small to appear on the world stage on its own.

Google/Guardian translation, but my Spanish is reasonable and seems a fair translation

Nick Gutteridge (The Sun) does state this interview is aimed at domestic NL policies where anti-EU parties are over 33% in the polls.

Re: The EU is stupid

Posted: February 14th, 2019, 12:21 pm
by SteMiS
mike wrote:
Stonge wrote:Immigration after Brexit will not be a problem. Nobody will want to come here, to a failed state.

In an interview in El Pais, Mark Rutte tended to confirm this as he opined in resonse to the "statement-question" Some people think that the EU will be weakened by the departure of the United Kingdom.
It is the UK that will be weakened. It is already weakening; it is on the wane compared to two or three years ago. It is going to become a middling economy stuck in the Atlantic Ocean. It is neither the US nor the EU. It is too small to appear on the world stage on its own.

Google/Guardian translation, but my Spanish is reasonable and seems a fair translation

Nick Gutteridge (The Sun) does state this interview is aimed at domestic NL policies where anti-EU parties are over 33% in the polls.

Thanks for the link. It's a fair translation, however what you also do get, during the interview, is a sense of regret that the UK is leaving. Rutter opines that Holland will (have to) become the most powerful voice in favour of free trade and the opening up of markets once the UK leaves, together with the Scandanavian and Baltic states; a role he clearly saw the UK previously occupying.