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The EU is stupid

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Stonge
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The EU is stupid

#200533

Postby Stonge » February 11th, 2019, 12:42 pm

As a remain voter, I have come to the conclusion that the EU should agree to all the demands of the leavers.

This would solve all the 'problems' of a leaving agreement and benefit both the EU and the UK enormously.

How is the present chaos better for us and them?

Perhaps the leavers were right after all in their suspicion of the EU's political attitudes and stupid leadership.

8-)

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200544

Postby ursaminortaur » February 11th, 2019, 1:22 pm

Stonge wrote:As a remain voter, I have come to the conclusion that the EU should agree to all the demands of the leavers.

This would solve all the 'problems' of a leaving agreement and benefit both the EU and the UK enormously.

How is the present chaos better for us and them?

Perhaps the leavers were right after all in their suspicion of the EU's political attitudes and stupid leadership.

8-)


Unfortunately the EU hasn't got any unicorns to give the brexiteers and they can't supply ever replenishing cake :)

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200545

Postby mosschops » February 11th, 2019, 1:23 pm

Most of their stances are dictated by E.U. law, or by the law of underlying member states. There isn’t that much room on their side for movement in a lot of places and the positions they have taken were pretty inevitable.

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200553

Postby SteMiS » February 11th, 2019, 1:45 pm

Stonge wrote:As a remain voter, I have come to the conclusion that the EU should agree to all the demands of the leavers.

What demands did you have in mind? Can the Leavers even agree on what they want?

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200556

Postby vrdiver » February 11th, 2019, 1:55 pm

SteMiS wrote:
Stonge wrote:As a remain voter, I have come to the conclusion that the EU should agree to all the demands of the leavers.

What demands did you have in mind? Can the Leavers even agree on what they want?


The sticky issue of the backstop comes to mind.

If the EU gets its way, we will have to stay in the CU until such time as a "borderless border" can be sorted out; however long it takes to develop and deploy all that remote, non-intrusive electronic tracking and checking technology etc. Presumaby all paid for by the UK, as we would be the ones pushing for its implementation so as to exit the backstop.

If the Leavers get their way and the backstop is time-limited (an interesting concept for a backstop that is meant to be there until an agreed better solution is available) then we end up either with a hard border or a sea border, should we unilaterally revoke the backstop before a solution is agreed that negates its necessity.

It seems to come down to how the UK feels about treating NI and which side of the border NI really wants to be, and how we settle that argument. Would have been nice to have had this little chat before declaring A50...

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200567

Postby Nimrod103 » February 11th, 2019, 2:44 pm

vrdiver wrote:
SteMiS wrote:
Stonge wrote:As a remain voter, I have come to the conclusion that the EU should agree to all the demands of the leavers.

What demands did you have in mind? Can the Leavers even agree on what they want?


The sticky issue of the backstop comes t, o mind.

If the EU gets its way, we will have to stay in the CU until such time as a "borderless border" can be sorted out; however long it takes to develop and deploy all that remote, non-intrusive electronic tracking and checking technology etc. Presumaby all paid for by the UK, as we would be the ones pushing for its implementation so as to exit the backstop.

If the Leavers get their way and the backstop is time-limited (an interesting concept for a backstop that is meant to be there until an agreed better solution is available) then we end up either with a hard border or a sea border, should we unilaterally revoke the backstop before a solution is agreed that negates its necessity.

It seems to come down to how the UK feels about treating NI and which side of the border NI really wants to be, and how we settle that argument. Would have been nice to have had this little chat before declaring A50...


It depends if what you describe is really how the backstop will work.
Given that we cannot trust Brussels, what is to stop them saying 'No electronic or remote control will work, it has to be a gate with guards at the border'? We have already said no installation at the border.
We are forced to stay in the CU.
Brexit game over. Tory Party game over.
May will have been checkmated, because she has not negotiated, because she is a Remainer.

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200572

Postby richfool » February 11th, 2019, 2:56 pm

Ursaminotaur wrote:Unfortunately the EU hasn't got any unicorns to give the brexiteers and they can't supply ever replenishing cake

They ought to be able to and with icing on top, on what we are paying them. ;)

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200574

Postby richfool » February 11th, 2019, 3:00 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
vrdiver wrote:
SteMiS wrote:What demands did you have in mind? Can the Leavers even agree on what they want?


The sticky issue of the backstop comes t, o mind.

If the EU gets its way, we will have to stay in the CU until such time as a "borderless border" can be sorted out; however long it takes to develop and deploy all that remote, non-intrusive electronic tracking and checking technology etc. Presumaby all paid for by the UK, as we would be the ones pushing for its implementation so as to exit the backstop.

If the Leavers get their way and the backstop is time-limited (an interesting concept for a backstop that is meant to be there until an agreed better solution is available) then we end up either with a hard border or a sea border, should we unilaterally revoke the backstop before a solution is agreed that negates its necessity.

It seems to come down to how the UK feels about treating NI and which side of the border NI really wants to be, and how we settle that argument. Would have been nice to have had this little chat before declaring A50...


It depends if what you describe is really how the backstop will work.
Given that we cannot trust Brussels, what is to stop them saying 'No electronic or remote control will work, it has to be a gate with guards at the border'? We have already said no installation at the border.
We are forced to stay in the CU.
Brexit game over. Tory Party game over.
May will have been checkmated, because she has not negotiated, because she is a Remainer.

I thought I heard that the EU have said to Ireland, that in the event of a No Deal Brexit, the EU would find some alternative solution to avoid Ireland having to have a hard border?! But yet they won't agree to that in the current agreement with May.

ursaminortaur
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Re: The EU is stupid

#200578

Postby ursaminortaur » February 11th, 2019, 3:06 pm

richfool wrote:
Ursaminotaur wrote:Unfortunately the EU hasn't got any unicorns to give the brexiteers and they can't supply ever replenishing cake

They ought to be able to and with icing on top, on what we are paying them. ;)


The EU budget is relatively small less than 1% of the EU GDI and is mostly spent on investment with the EU administration being smaller than that of many EU cities. In comparison national budgets of members tend to be about 50 times larger averaging around 46% of their GDI. The US federal budget in comparison is 21% of US GDP.

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200613

Postby Nimrod103 » February 11th, 2019, 5:11 pm

richfool wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:
vrdiver wrote:
The sticky issue of the backstop comes t, o mind.

If the EU gets its way, we will have to stay in the CU until such time as a "borderless border" can be sorted out; however long it takes to develop and deploy all that remote, non-intrusive electronic tracking and checking technology etc. Presumaby all paid for by the UK, as we would be the ones pushing for its implementation so as to exit the backstop.

If the Leavers get their way and the backstop is time-limited (an interesting concept for a backstop that is meant to be there until an agreed better solution is available) then we end up either with a hard border or a sea border, should we unilaterally revoke the backstop before a solution is agreed that negates its necessity.

It seems to come down to how the UK feels about treating NI and which side of the border NI really wants to be, and how we settle that argument. Would have been nice to have had this little chat before declaring A50...


It depends if what you describe is really how the backstop will work.
Given that we cannot trust Brussels, what is to stop them saying 'No electronic or remote control will work, it has to be a gate with guards at the border'? We have already said no installation at the border.
We are forced to stay in the CU.
Brexit game over. Tory Party game over.
May will have been checkmated, because she has not negotiated, because she is a Remainer.

I thought I heard that the EU have said to Ireland, that in the event of a No Deal Brexit, the EU would find some alternative solution to avoid Ireland having to have a hard border?! But yet they won't agree to that in the current agreement with May.


Evidence, if any more were needed, that Brussels cannot be trusted. Why haven't they put that alternative solution in writing to the UK Govt?

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200622

Postby vrdiver » February 11th, 2019, 5:43 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
richfool wrote:I thought I heard that the EU have said to Ireland, that in the event of a No Deal Brexit, the EU would find some alternative solution to avoid Ireland having to have a hard border?! But yet they won't agree to that in the current agreement with May.


Evidence, if any more were needed, that Brussels cannot be trusted. Why haven't they put that alternative solution in writing to the UK Govt?


Or perhaps they haven't put it in writing to the UK government because they didn't say it?

If it's "evidence", please show where they said it. Other people saying that's what they should do, doesn't count...

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200623

Postby BobbyD » February 11th, 2019, 5:46 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:Given that we cannot trust Brussels


We can't? It's Downing Street which has been whispering one thing to Peter then telling Paul the exact opposite 5 minute later, pursuing cake it knows is unavailable to placate parts of its own party, ducking votes it knows it can't win, running down the clock to create a false dichotomy between its deal and the No Deal Monster, and then backing amendments which are fundamentally at odds with that deal.

It's no wonder the EU wants a clearly defined binding backstop. I wouldn't trust May as far as I could throw her, and I find it reassuring to see that one of the big three power blocks in the world is no less gullible.

The EU on the otherhand have been consistent, and remarkably patient throughout the process.

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200627

Postby Itsallaguess » February 11th, 2019, 6:09 pm

vrdiver wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:
richfool wrote:
I thought I heard that the EU have said to Ireland, that in the event of a No Deal Brexit, the EU would find some alternative solution to avoid Ireland having to have a hard border?!

But yet they won't agree to that in the current agreement with May.


Evidence, if any more were needed, that Brussels cannot be trusted. Why haven't they put that alternative solution in writing to the UK Govt?


Or perhaps they haven't put it in writing to the UK government because they didn't say it?

If it's "evidence", please show where they said it. Other people saying that's what they should do, doesn't count...


Here's a video showing Varadkar and Juncker saying just that....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ljJhZZo5s

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200637

Postby anticrank » February 11th, 2019, 6:50 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
vrdiver wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:


Evidence, if any more were needed, that Brussels cannot be trusted. Why haven't they put that alternative solution in writing to the UK Govt?


Or perhaps they haven't put it in writing to the UK government because they didn't say it?

If it's "evidence", please show where they said it. Other people saying that's what they should do, doesn't count...


Here's a video showing Varadkar and Juncker saying just that....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ljJhZZo5s

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


If we Brexit without a deal that provides for a frictionless border in Ireland, then a hard border will be required under EU law. EU member states are required to enforce border controls on third country trade. So, if the EU decides to keep the border in Ireland frictionless in the event of a no-deal Brexit, it will have to ignore its own rules to do so.

It should be obvious why this can't form the basis of a solution on which the UK and the EU can shake hands.

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200639

Postby GJHarney » February 11th, 2019, 6:51 pm

I have to say I still don't understand what May's goals were, although I accept that they could well have been to try and keep us as a type of EU vassal state given the nature of how her 'deal' turned out.

I have never understood why the government didn't very quickly following the 2016 referendum (re)apply for EFTA membership (without the EEA single market option). That would have been quick and straight forward, and it would have given us guaranteed tariff-free access to the EU after we left, along with ready -made trade deals with just about everyone else in the world (but ones that we would the be free to negotiate our own trade deals when we were ready to do so). At a stroke we would have had economic certainty for exporters and importers, but politically it would have cut the legs off the main EU leverage in their negotiations.

Yes, EFTA minus EEA would not have covered regulatory compliance issues, but then had we have had 2 years from the Article 50 trigger to just talk about those as the immediate post-Brexit priority (and if necessary with a regulatory transition periods agreed) then it would have been a walk in the park compared to the embarrassing mess May and her negotiators have left us in currently.

Given current choices I would prefer a WTO no deal to May's deal, but it could have been so much better had we have had a government in power with any nous over the last 2 years.

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200641

Postby Itsallaguess » February 11th, 2019, 6:55 pm

anticrank wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
vrdiver wrote:
Or perhaps they haven't put it in writing to the UK government because they didn't say it?

If it's "evidence", please show where they said it. Other people saying that's what they should do, doesn't count...


Here's a video showing Varadkar and Juncker saying just that....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ljJhZZo5s


If we Brexit without a deal that provides for a frictionless border in Ireland, then a hard border will be required under EU law. EU member states are required to enforce border controls on third country trade.

So, if the EU decides to keep the border in Ireland frictionless in the event of a no-deal Brexit, it will have to ignore its own rules to do so.

It should be obvious why this can't form the basis of a solution on which the UK and the EU can shake hands.


I'm not trying to suggest how solving that particular conundrum might play out - I've simply provided a video to show where both Varadkar and Juncker seem to be saying there won't be a hard border under any circumstances - even in the case of no deal...

Do you know why they should find themselves in the position of saying such a thing, if it's actually impossible to implement their position on the subject?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200649

Postby anticrank » February 11th, 2019, 7:13 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
anticrank wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:


Here's a video showing Varadkar and Juncker saying just that....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ljJhZZo5s


If we Brexit without a deal that provides for a frictionless border in Ireland, then a hard border will be required under EU law. EU member states are required to enforce border controls on third country trade.

So, if the EU decides to keep the border in Ireland frictionless in the event of a no-deal Brexit, it will have to ignore its own rules to do so.

It should be obvious why this can't form the basis of a solution on which the UK and the EU can shake hands.


I'm not trying to suggest how solving that particular conundrum might play out - I've simply provided a video to show where both Varadkar and Juncker seem to be saying there won't be a hard border under any circumstances - even in the case of no deal...

Do you know why they should find themselves in the position of saying such a thing, if it's actually impossible to implement their position on the subject?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


Because, it's not impossible. But, if the border remains frictionless in the event of a no-deal Brexit, that will be because the EU has decided, under the circumstances, to break (or ignore) its own laws.

The impossibility is having a legally sound and effective frictionless border that has NI outside the EU's customs and regulatory domain. The EU will not agree to anything short of a legally sound solution (until the impossible is proven possible).

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200652

Postby BobbyD » February 11th, 2019, 7:28 pm

anticrank wrote:If we Brexit without a deal that provides for a frictionless border in Ireland, then a hard border will be required under EU law. EU member states are required to enforce border controls on third country trade.


Moreover it will have to do the same for all third parties or it will be breaching its WTO commitments.

Now, you might argue that on December 11th this year the WTO will cease to have any teeth, and as things stand you would be right, but then our 'WTO exit' actually becomes not only a No Deal exit, but a no rules exit and the UK finds itself all on its own in the playground after all the teachers have gone home.

Fun, fun, fun!!!

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200655

Postby GeoffF100 » February 11th, 2019, 7:31 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
vrdiver wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:Evidence, if any more were needed, that Brussels cannot be trusted. Why haven't they put that alternative solution in writing to the UK Govt?

Or perhaps they haven't put it in writing to the UK government because they didn't say it?

If it's "evidence", please show where they said it. Other people saying that's what they should do, doesn't count...

Here's a video showing Varadkar and Juncker saying just that....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ljJhZZo5s

No, Junker said they could trust him, not that there would not be a hard border, if there was a no deal. WTO rules would require a hard border in that event. Barnier said it was obvious that there would have to be a hard border, if there was a no deal. He then backed off, but that does not alter the legal position. I saw a news report that suggested that the EU had told Dublin that the RoI would be kicked out of the Single Market if it did not put up a hard border, if there was no deal.

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Re: The EU is stupid

#200660

Postby Itsallaguess » February 11th, 2019, 7:38 pm

GeoffF100 wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
vrdiver wrote:
Or perhaps they haven't put it in writing to the UK government because they didn't say it?

If it's "evidence", please show where they said it. Other people saying that's what they should do, doesn't count...

Here's a video showing Varadkar and Juncker saying just that....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ljJhZZo5s


No, Junker said they could trust him, not that there would not be a hard border, if there was a no deal.


You must be watching a different video to the one I linked to Geoff - please watch again from 22-seconds in - the question was specifically regarding trusting the EU not to put up a hard border in the event of a no-deal Brexit...

I won't get into a debate regarding the why's and why-nots of possibilities - vrdriver asked for evidence that they'd said it, and I've provided a video to both Varadkar and Juncker saying just that....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


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