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Brexit other options

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Gadgeisbackagain
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Brexit other options

#214196

Postby Gadgeisbackagain » April 10th, 2019, 5:53 pm

We seem to be hearing about:

a. Leaving without a deal (now a rank outsider)
b. Staying in, presumably back again as we previously were. uninvolved and hardly part of the club or the decision making going on.
c. A Customs union fudge and an exit that leaves us weakened and unable to do trade deals.

It seems to me that there are at least two other sensible options.

1. Remain but get 100% involved.

Stay in but get properly wedded to the EU ideology. Ditch the pound and join the Euro Zone for a start and then work on better collaboration all round to build a triumvirate consisting of France, Germany, AND the UK driving Europe forward.

Make sure we have the right size seat at the table as befits the UK. This is, in my view, what we should have been doing all along.

Drive the Euro Sceptics out of power in the two dominant political parties and get behind what we are actually involved in.

In a nutshell, drive the coach and horses or get off and walk.

2. Get Off the Coach and Walk Option:

Leave the EU but first deal with the lingering issues remaining from our Empire of these useless pieces of territory that have caused so much aggravation in these negotiations. Sort them out now and for our future. These are, of course, Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, and The Falklands.

A single structured approach IMHO would suffice for all of them.

Do a deal to hand them over to the obvious rightful owners: Ireland, Spain and Argentina. Making sure that where the place is strategic (Gibralter and the Falklands) the handover includes a right in perpetuity for NATO or the UK to have an airbase situated there.

As for the UK citizens living there today, advise them that the handover is taking place with an agreed timeframe.
They say they want to remain UK citizens. Fine. This is where the UK is.

So offer all of them the opportunity to relocate and settle in the UK.
Give them a decent sum of money to make it affordable for them to do so.
I would suggest around half a million pounds per household will suffice.

If they choose not to move here and accept this offer, then they are in effect opting out of their UK rights and would become nationals of Ireland, Spain or Argentina respectively and become their problem going forward..

This will make political life so much simpler for the newly independent UK.
We could, for example, leave the EU and put our border where it should be.
Around our own island.

Of course, this option will probably cause the Scots, Welsh and the Cornish to want to split away.
But this will be inevitable if we leave the EU anyway.

Gadge

johnhemming
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Re: Brexit other options

#214200

Postby johnhemming » April 10th, 2019, 5:57 pm

Gadgeisbackagain wrote:b. Staying in, presumably back again as we previously were. uninvolved and hardly part of the club or the decision making going on.

Actually we normally got decisions that the UK government was happy with.

We were participants even if people pretended we were not.

ursaminortaur
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Re: Brexit other options

#214205

Postby ursaminortaur » April 10th, 2019, 6:08 pm

johnhemming wrote:
Gadgeisbackagain wrote:b. Staying in, presumably back again as we previously were. uninvolved and hardly part of the club or the decision making going on.

Actually we normally got decisions that the UK government was happy with.

We were participants even if people pretended we were not.


Yes - It is often claimed that the Single Market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest creation. Also the EU expansion to take in the ex-communist eastern european states was very much pushed for by the UK. Both things which seem to upset the hardline brexiteers.

SteMiS
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Re: Brexit other options

#214235

Postby SteMiS » April 10th, 2019, 8:36 pm

Gadgeisbackagain wrote:We seem to be hearing about:

b. Staying in, presumably back again as we previously were. uninvolved and hardly part of the club or the decision making going on.

It's one of the urban myths perpetuated by the Eurosceptics that the UK was somehow not part of the decision making in the EU.

In contrast, the EU was basically run by the big three; Germany, France and the UK. Nothing happened without their say so. Try listening to someone like Michael Duggan, Professor of European Law at the University of Liverpool; a man who has spent his academic career studying the EU.

Gadgeisbackagain wrote:Leave the EU but first deal with the lingering issues remaining from our Empire of these useless pieces of territory that have caused so much aggravation in these negotiations. Sort them out now and for our future. These are, of course, Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, and The Falklands.

A single structured approach IMHO would suffice for all of them.

Do a deal to hand them over to the obvious rightful owners: Ireland, Spain and Argentina.

Wow, there really is nothing sacrosanct between some Eurosceptics and their promised land, even historic undertakings given to those who look to us to protect them or their democratic rights. All are expendable. What a diminished and sorry country we would become...

JoyofBrex8889
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Re: Brexit other options

#214303

Postby JoyofBrex8889 » April 11th, 2019, 8:13 am

So much wrong with the OP I hardly know where to start.

Rightful owners?

Learn some history mate.

XFool
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Re: Brexit other options

#217425

Postby XFool » April 26th, 2019, 10:13 am

What an amusing thread.

Whatever the practicality of the details, the OP seems to have pointed up the issues pretty starkly. 'Get real!'

As for listening to "Michael Duggan, Professor of European Law at the University of Liverpool; a man who has spent his academic career studying the EU", surely he's some kind of expert and therefore must be plain 'rong'?

My, how far we have come from the initial promised land of Easy Brexit, flowing with milk and honey and opportunity - the Sunny Uplands! :)

Gadgeisbackagain
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Re: Brexit other options

#236082

Postby Gadgeisbackagain » July 12th, 2019, 7:27 am

I am def not a euro sceptic. See my option one. Stay in and get fully involved.
This has always been my preferred option in Europe.

My kids are half french, 2 of my grandkids live in Europe and speak French all day at creche, and I have massive benefited from being in Europe.

Option 2 in the event of option one not being possible.
Get fully out. Hopefully that makes my position clearer......

Also, regardless of the history of these useless bits of far off land and all the politics they bring.
Its time to get shot of them somehow imho.

Gadge

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Re: Brexit other options

#236258

Postby Wizard » July 12th, 2019, 5:21 pm

I completely agree holding on to the Falklands, Gibraltar and NI is ridiculous. Hand Gibraltar back to Spain, it was taken by conquest. Hand NI back to the Republic of Ireland, the division is a ridiculous artificial one. Hand the Falklands back to either France (I believe they were actually the first people to colonise them), or Spain (which I believe held them prior to GB occupying them).

These places cause us nothing but trouble and expense. Treat the current citizens reasonably, but we have no obligation to retain them, especially as we would be handing all three back to upstanding Western European democracies.

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Re: Brexit other options

#236267

Postby ursaminortaur » July 12th, 2019, 5:51 pm

Wizard wrote:I completely agree holding on to the Falklands, Gibraltar and NI is ridiculous. Hand Gibraltar back to Spain, it was taken by conquest. Hand NI back to the Republic of Ireland, the division is a ridiculous artificial one. Hand the Falklands back to either France (I believe they were actually the first people to colonise them), or Spain (which I believe held them prior to GB occupying them).

These places cause us nothing but trouble and expense. Treat the current citizens reasonably, but we have no obligation to retain them, especially as we would be handing all three back to upstanding Western European democracies.


Except of course the populations of Gibraltar and the Falklands don't want to be handed over to Spain or France (and as far as I am aware neither France or Spain want to be drawn into a conflict with Argentina over the Falklands/Malvinas). And in NI the GFA means that NI could only be reunited with the Republic of Ireland if both the populations of NI and the ROI agree in referendums and currently it is far from certain that they would. Without that agreement it is unlikely that the ROI would want to accept a forced re-unification because of the threat of Unionist/Loyalist violence that would unleash even if Britain had washed its hands of NI.

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Re: Brexit other options

#236269

Postby BobbyD » July 12th, 2019, 5:59 pm

Wizard wrote:I completely agree holding on to the Falklands, Gibraltar and NI is ridiculous. Hand Gibraltar back to Spain, it was taken by conquest.


Cool, presumably we get the US and Calais back?

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Re: Brexit other options

#236273

Postby ursaminortaur » July 12th, 2019, 6:25 pm

BobbyD wrote:
Wizard wrote:I completely agree holding on to the Falklands, Gibraltar and NI is ridiculous. Hand Gibraltar back to Spain, it was taken by conquest.


Cool, presumably we get the US and Calais back?


Although Gibraltar was captured by Anglo-Dutch fleet in 1704 it was ceded to Britain in the treaty of Utrecht in 1713 as part of the deal which allowed Philip of France to take the Spanish throne (The main part of the deal being that Philip who was also in line to be French King had to renounce that claim).

Wizard
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Re: Brexit other options

#236274

Postby Wizard » July 12th, 2019, 6:26 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Wizard wrote:I completely agree holding on to the Falklands, Gibraltar and NI is ridiculous. Hand Gibraltar back to Spain, it was taken by conquest. Hand NI back to the Republic of Ireland, the division is a ridiculous artificial one. Hand the Falklands back to either France (I believe they were actually the first people to colonise them), or Spain (which I believe held them prior to GB occupying them).

These places cause us nothing but trouble and expense. Treat the current citizens reasonably, but we have no obligation to retain them, especially as we would be handing all three back to upstanding Western European democracies.


Except of course the populations of Gibraltar and the Falklands don't want to be handed over to Spain or France (and as far as I am aware neither France or Spain want to be drawn into a conflict with Argentina over the Falklands/Malvinas). And in NI the GFA means that NI could only be reunited with the Republic of Ireland if both the populations of NI and the ROI agree in referendums and currently it is far from certain that they would. Without that agreement it is unlikely that the ROI would want to accept a forced re-unification because of the threat of Unionist/Loyalist violence that would unleash even if Britain had washed its hands of NI.

Well if Spain and France don't want the Falklands abd Argentina do, that answer is easy.
As the OP said give residents the option to stay under new management or receive assistance to relocate, that seems perfectly reasonable to me.
NI is a thornier issue I agree and probably requires some new discussions with the Republic, but I am sure an answer can be found as ultimately I am sure they would favour a unified Ireland. The alternative is to let a few hundred willing to turn to violence dictate the solution, that seems wrong to me.

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Re: Brexit other options

#236275

Postby Wizard » July 12th, 2019, 6:27 pm

BobbyD wrote:
Wizard wrote:I completely agree holding on to the Falklands, Gibraltar and NI is ridiculous. Hand Gibraltar back to Spain, it was taken by conquest.


Cool, presumably we get the US and Calais back?

Why?

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Re: Brexit other options

#236399

Postby dspp » July 13th, 2019, 11:30 am

Wizard wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
Wizard wrote:I completely agree holding on to the Falklands, Gibraltar and NI is ridiculous. Hand Gibraltar back to Spain, it was taken by conquest. Hand NI back to the Republic of Ireland, the division is a ridiculous artificial one. Hand the Falklands back to either France (I believe they were actually the first people to colonise them), or Spain (which I believe held them prior to GB occupying them).

These places cause us nothing but trouble and expense. Treat the current citizens reasonably, but we have no obligation to retain them, especially as we would be handing all three back to upstanding Western European democracies.


Except of course the populations of Gibraltar and the Falklands don't want to be handed over to Spain or France (and as far as I am aware neither France or Spain want to be drawn into a conflict with Argentina over the Falklands/Malvinas). And in NI the GFA means that NI could only be reunited with the Republic of Ireland if both the populations of NI and the ROI agree in referendums and currently it is far from certain that they would. Without that agreement it is unlikely that the ROI would want to accept a forced re-unification because of the threat of Unionist/Loyalist violence that would unleash even if Britain had washed its hands of NI.

Well if Spain and France don't want the Falklands abd Argentina do, that answer is easy.
As the OP said give residents the option to stay under new management or receive assistance to relocate, that seems perfectly reasonable to me.
NI is a thornier issue I agree and probably requires some new discussions with the Republic, but I am sure an answer can be found as ultimately I am sure they would favour a unified Ireland. The alternative is to let a few hundred willing to turn to violence dictate the solution, that seems wrong to me.


So letting violence dictate an outcome in the Falklands is OK, but not in Northern Ireland. Or is it OK in both cases. Or in none. Please be clear.

Going against the wishes of the inhabitants is OK. Or is it not OK ? Please be clear.

Do you have any principles ? Or are you that Boris Johnson chap ?

- dspp

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Re: Brexit other options

#236401

Postby Wizard » July 13th, 2019, 11:51 am

dspp wrote:
Wizard wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
Except of course the populations of Gibraltar and the Falklands don't want to be handed over to Spain or France (and as far as I am aware neither France or Spain want to be drawn into a conflict with Argentina over the Falklands/Malvinas). And in NI the GFA means that NI could only be reunited with the Republic of Ireland if both the populations of NI and the ROI agree in referendums and currently it is far from certain that they would. Without that agreement it is unlikely that the ROI would want to accept a forced re-unification because of the threat of Unionist/Loyalist violence that would unleash even if Britain had washed its hands of NI.

Well if Spain and France don't want the Falklands abd Argentina do, that answer is easy.
As the OP said give residents the option to stay under new management or receive assistance to relocate, that seems perfectly reasonable to me.
NI is a thornier issue I agree and probably requires some new discussions with the Republic, but I am sure an answer can be found as ultimately I am sure they would favour a unified Ireland. The alternative is to let a few hundred willing to turn to violence dictate the solution, that seems wrong to me.


So letting violence dictate an outcome in the Falklands is OK, but not in Northern Ireland. Or is it OK in both cases. Or in none. Please be clear.

When did I advocate violence in the Falklands? Please be clear.

dspp wrote:Going against the wishes of the inhabitants is OK. Or is it not OK ? Please be clear.

In the cases above, yes it is OK given the historical basis of the 'ownership' of those places and their geographical dislocation.

dspp wrote:Do you have any principles ? Or are you that Boris Johnson chap ?

Yes and no.

dspp
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Re: Brexit other options

#236408

Postby dspp » July 13th, 2019, 12:07 pm

Wizard wrote:
dspp wrote:
Wizard wrote:Well if Spain and France don't want the Falklands abd Argentina do, that answer is easy.
As the OP said give residents the option to stay under new management or receive assistance to relocate, that seems perfectly reasonable to me.
NI is a thornier issue I agree and probably requires some new discussions with the Republic, but I am sure an answer can be found as ultimately I am sure they would favour a unified Ireland. The alternative is to let a few hundred willing to turn to violence dictate the solution, that seems wrong to me.


So letting violence dictate an outcome in the Falklands is OK, but not in Northern Ireland. Or is it OK in both cases. Or in none. Please be clear.

When did I advocate violence in the Falklands? Please be clear.

dspp wrote:Going against the wishes of the inhabitants is OK. Or is it not OK ? Please be clear.

In the cases above, yes it is OK given the historical basis of the 'ownership' of those places and their geographical dislocation.

dspp wrote:Do you have any principles ? Or are you that Boris Johnson chap ?

Yes and no.


In case you haven't noticed Argentina invaded the Falklands, and continues to insist on sovereignty much against the wishes of the inhabitants. You appear to support force determining the outcome.

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Re: Brexit other options

#236411

Postby Wizard » July 13th, 2019, 12:14 pm

dspp wrote:
Wizard wrote:
dspp wrote:
So letting violence dictate an outcome in the Falklands is OK, but not in Northern Ireland. Or is it OK in both cases. Or in none. Please be clear.

When did I advocate violence in the Falklands? Please be clear.

dspp wrote:Going against the wishes of the inhabitants is OK. Or is it not OK ? Please be clear.

In the cases above, yes it is OK given the historical basis of the 'ownership' of those places and their geographical dislocation.

dspp wrote:Do you have any principles ? Or are you that Boris Johnson chap ?

Yes and no.


In case you haven't noticed Argentina invaded the Falklands, and continues to insist on sovereignty much against the wishes of the inhabitants. You appear to support force determining the outcome.

Again, please show me where I have supported force with regard to the Falklands.

dspp
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Re: Brexit other options

#236474

Postby dspp » July 13th, 2019, 4:56 pm

Wizard wrote:
dspp wrote:
Wizard wrote:When did I advocate violence in the Falklands? Please be clear.


In the cases above, yes it is OK given the historical basis of the 'ownership' of those places and their geographical dislocation.


Yes and no.


In case you haven't noticed Argentina invaded the Falklands, and continues to insist on sovereignty much against the wishes of the inhabitants. You appear to support force determining the outcome.

Again, please show me where I have supported force with regard to the Falklands.


Wizard wrote:"Well if Spain and France don't want the Falklands abd Argentina do, that answer is easy.
As the OP said give residents the option to stay under new management or receive assistance to relocate, that seems perfectly reasonable to me."


Relocation under duress, in the face of the last invader, is anything but peaceful. It is certainly not "perfectly reasonable".
- dspp


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