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Tory Leadership candidates

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Nimrod103
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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#232460

Postby Nimrod103 » June 28th, 2019, 7:58 am

Lootman wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:It looks like Boris Johnson is backtracking on the commitment made by all the candidates at the urging of Sajid Javid that there would be an independent inquiry into Islamophobia in the Conservative party.

I suspect that that will happen about the same time that Corbyn takes seriously his party's structural antisemitism.

And at least Jews don't plant bombs in London, so the literal meaning of the word "phobia" really doesn't apply in the same way.


I thought a phobia was an irrational fear. Fear of Islam is not irrational.

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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#232472

Postby SteMiS » June 28th, 2019, 9:01 am

Nimrod103 wrote:
Lootman wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:It looks like Boris Johnson is backtracking on the commitment made by all the candidates at the urging of Sajid Javid that there would be an independent inquiry into Islamophobia in the Conservative party.

I suspect that that will happen about the same time that Corbyn takes seriously his party's structural antisemitism.

And at least Jews don't plant bombs in London, so the literal meaning of the word "phobia" really doesn't apply in the same way.

I thought a phobia was an irrational fear. Fear of Islam is not irrational.

No, you're confusing it with Christianity and why there is no such thing as Christianophobia

ursaminortaur
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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#232505

Postby ursaminortaur » June 28th, 2019, 10:52 am

SteMiS wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:
Lootman wrote:I suspect that that will happen about the same time that Corbyn takes seriously his party's structural antisemitism.

And at least Jews don't plant bombs in London, so the literal meaning of the word "phobia" really doesn't apply in the same way.

I thought a phobia was an irrational fear. Fear of Islam is not irrational.

No, you're confusing it with Christianity and why there is no such thing as Christianophobia


Christianophobia is a valid term being used to describe hatred and persecution of Christians. In the past you obviously had the persecution of Christians because of their faith by the Romans etc but even today Christians are persecuted in various countries because of their faith.

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/christianophobia

an irrational animosity towards or hatred of Christians, or Christianity in general. It is also used to describe the phenomenon of intolerance and discrimination against Christians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anti-cultural,_anti-national,_and_anti-ethnic_terms

These discriminatory attitudes are similar in nature to various religion-based hostile movements, such as Christianophobia and Anti-Catholicism, based on the mixture of xenophobia and ideological/political opposition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Current_situation_(1989_to_present)

According to Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, Christians are the most persecuted group in the contemporary world.[219] The Holy See has reported that over 100,000 Christians are violently killed annually because of some relation to their faith.[220] According to the World Evangelical Alliance, over 200 million Christians are denied fundamental human rights solely because of their faith.[221] Of the 100–200 million Christians alleged to be under assault, the majority are persecuted in Muslim-dominated nations.[222] Paul Vallely has said that Christians suffer numerically more than any other faith group or any group without faith in the world. Of the world's three largest religions Christians are allegedly the most persecuted with 80% of all acts of religious discrimination being directed at Christians[223] who only make up 33% of the world's population.[224]

Every year, the Christian non-profit organization Open Doors publishes the World Watch List – a list of the top 50 countries which it designates as the most dangerous for Christians. The 2018 World Watch List has the following countries as its top ten: North Korea, Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, Pakistan, Eritrea, Libya, Iraq, Yemen, Iran


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1474225X.2013.764271?journalCode=rjsc20

Christianophobia: A Faith under Attack


There was even a debate in parliament on Christianophobia in 2007 though I don't think it is much a problem in this country

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7125521.stm

Mr Pritchard, Conservative MP for The Wrekin, Shropshire, has called a Westminster debate on Christianophobia for Wednesday.

SteMiS
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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#232543

Postby SteMiS » June 28th, 2019, 1:30 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:Christianophobia is a valid term being used to describe hatred and persecution of Christians.

Sorry, I should have been clearer with my slightly tongue in cheek quip

SteMiS wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:I thought a phobia was an irrational fear. Fear of Islam is not irrational.

No, you're confusing it with Christianity and why there is no such thing as Christianophobia

On Nimrod103's definition, there can be no such thing as Christianophobia, because fear of Christianity wouldn't be irrational...

BobbyD
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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#232577

Postby BobbyD » June 28th, 2019, 3:46 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:I thought a phobia was an irrational fear. Fear of Islam is not irrational.


Do go on...

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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#232578

Postby BobbyD » June 28th, 2019, 3:49 pm

Boris CENSORED by BBC over shock insult to the French in Brexit film to avoid Macron fury
BORIS JOHNSON was censored by the BBC after he insulted the French in a Brexit documentary.

The frontrunner for Prime Minister reportedly accused the French of being “turds” over Brexit. The former Foreign Secretary’s remark was supposed to be a feature in a TV documentary, the Daily Mail reported. However, the Foreign Office begged for the comment to be cut out the show, insiders have claimed.


- https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... ews-update

I do hope they have camera's following Boris when he sets off to Brussels...

Wizard
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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#232711

Postby Wizard » June 29th, 2019, 11:37 am

BobbyD wrote:
Boris CENSORED by BBC over shock insult to the French in Brexit film to avoid Macron fury
BORIS JOHNSON was censored by the BBC after he insulted the French in a Brexit documentary.

The frontrunner for Prime Minister reportedly accused the French of being “turds” over Brexit. The former Foreign Secretary’s remark was supposed to be a feature in a TV documentary, the Daily Mail reported. However, the Foreign Office begged for the comment to be cut out the show, insiders have claimed.


- https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... ews-update

I do hope they have camera's following Boris when he sets off to Brussels...

Most Brits (myself included!) would not benefit from the coverage without sub-titles, as Johnson is fluent in French the negotiations would likely not be in English. Though if others preferred he could conduct them in Italian, Latin or Ancient Greek.

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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#232718

Postby XFool » June 29th, 2019, 11:47 am

Wizard wrote:
BobbyD wrote:I do hope they have camera's following Boris when he sets off to Brussels...

Most Brits (myself included!) would not benefit from the coverage without sub-titles, as Johnson is fluent in French the negotiations would likely not be in English. Though if others preferred he could conduct them in Italian, Latin or Ancient Greek.

You mean he can be duplicitous in five languages, instead of honest in one? Bonza!

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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#232812

Postby Nimrod103 » June 29th, 2019, 10:48 pm

BobbyD wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:AIUI, as reported (please correct if wrong) the neighbour set up a listening device to record private conversations. Presumably these were of a sophisticated type to listen through presumably largely sound-proof walls. He/she then sent the tapes to the Guardian, before going to the police.
Whole thing sounds like a set-up by one of the newspapers (Guardian?) who may have provided the equipment.


You presume quite a lot.


I presume I might have been correct in my presumptions. The builder says the flats were essentially soundproof, and the neighbour was lying if he said he recorded it on his phone against the wall. As reported in the Telegraph
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... lls-thick/

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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#232866

Postby XFool » June 30th, 2019, 10:04 am

Nimrod103 wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:AIUI, as reported (please correct if wrong) the neighbour set up a listening device to record private conversations. Presumably these were of a sophisticated type to listen through presumably largely sound-proof walls. He/she then sent the tapes to the Guardian, before going to the police.
Whole thing sounds like a set-up by one of the newspapers (Guardian?) who may have provided the equipment.

You presume quite a lot.

I presume I might have been correct in my presumptions. The builder says the flats were essentially soundproof, and the neighbour was lying if he said he recorded it on his phone against the wall. As reported in the Telegraph
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... lls-thick/

Don't forget to read all the accompanying Comments - for that full Telegraph Entertainment Experience. :)

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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#232930

Postby ursaminortaur » June 30th, 2019, 3:10 pm

So we have a choice between "F*** business" Johnson and Hunt who thinks businesses going bust is worth it to achieve brexit. So much for the Tories being the party of business.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/30/jeremy-hunt-i-would-tell-bust-businesses-no-deal-brexit-was-worth-it

Jeremy Hunt has said he would willingly tell businesses that go bust because of a no-deal Brexit that their sacrifice was a necessary one, and that he will actively pursue such a course if a new departure plan looks impossible at the start of October.

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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#232931

Postby BobbyD » June 30th, 2019, 3:15 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:Jeremy Hunt has said he would willingly tell businesses that go bust because of a no-deal Brexit that their sacrifice was a necessary one, and that he will actively pursue such a course if a new departure plan looks impossible at the start of October.


With the "womble Business" Tories standing against Comrade Corbyn's Labour party the next election is beginning to feel more like an intelligence test than a method of governmental selection. Correct answer c) Almost literally anybody else.

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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#233068

Postby paullidd » July 1st, 2019, 9:15 am

XFool wrote:
Wizard wrote:
BobbyD wrote:I do hope they have camera's following Boris when he sets off to Brussels...

Most Brits (myself included!) would not benefit from the coverage without sub-titles, as Johnson is fluent in French the negotiations would likely not be in English. Though if others preferred he could conduct them in Italian, Latin or Ancient Greek.

You mean he can be duplicitous in five languages, instead of honest in one? Bonza!


He's also fluent in several dialects of bullsh!t.

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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#233150

Postby ursaminortaur » July 1st, 2019, 1:53 pm

It seems 31st October would come early under a Hunt premiership with him threatening to adopt a no deal brexit by the end of September.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-live-updates-boris-johnson-tory-leadership-jeremy-hunt-no-deal-eu-corbyn-latest-a8982331.html

Jeremy Hunt says he will abandon talks with EU early and let UK crash out if it refuses to renegotiate
In dramatic ramping up of his no-deal Brexit threat, foreign secretary pledges new withdrawal plan by end of August - and to give EU just three weeks to accept it



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/jul/01/tory-leadership-latest-news-boris-johnson-hunt-proposes-6bn-no-deal-bail-out-for-farmers-and-fishing-industry-live-news?page=with:block-5d19deee8f082cc21811b63f#block-5d19deee8f082cc21811b63f

Hunt says he would decide on 30 September whether or not Brexit deal possible

It would be unlikely that either candidate will be able to find anyone in the EU to negotiate with before 31st October since the EU is busy replacing the commission and making appointments to other EU institutions but pulling the decision date on whether to leave without a deal even further forward makes it pretty much impossible.

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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#233165

Postby BobbyD » July 1st, 2019, 2:39 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:It seems 31st October would come early under a Hunt premiership with him threatening to adopt a no deal brexit by the end of September.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-live-updates-boris-johnson-tory-leadership-jeremy-hunt-no-deal-eu-corbyn-latest-a8982331.html

Jeremy Hunt says he will abandon talks with EU early and let UK crash out if it refuses to renegotiate
In dramatic ramping up of his no-deal Brexit threat, foreign secretary pledges new withdrawal plan by end of August - and to give EU just three weeks to accept it



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/jul/01/tory-leadership-latest-news-boris-johnson-hunt-proposes-6bn-no-deal-bail-out-for-farmers-and-fishing-industry-live-news?page=with:block-5d19deee8f082cc21811b63f#block-5d19deee8f082cc21811b63f

Hunt says he would decide on 30 September whether or not Brexit deal possible

It would be unlikely that either candidate will be able to find anyone in the EU to negotiate with before 31st October since the EU is busy replacing the commission and making appointments to other EU institutions but pulling the decision date on whether to leave without a deal even further forward makes it pretty much impossible.


October? pah September. September is for wimps, we'll leave in August...

Which one of them is going to get back to promising we will leave by March 29th 2019 first?

dionaeamuscipula
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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#233167

Postby dionaeamuscipula » July 1st, 2019, 2:42 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
It would be unlikely that either candidate will be able to find anyone in the EU to negotiate with before 31st October since the EU is busy replacing the commission and making appointments to other EU institutions but pulling the decision date on whether to leave without a deal even further forward makes it pretty much impossible.


I note that Hunt has joined Raab in admitting that an emergency budget will be required.

Hunt seems to be trying to take member votes off Johnson by sounding more and more like him on Brexit. I'm not sure that is a winning strategy.

I'm not sure his cunning plan of using no-deal brexit as a negotiating stance is a winning strategy either.

In fact the more I hear from Hunt the more convinced I am that (since it can't be Gove) it has to be Johnson, especially if his premiership ends in a rapid election defeat and we can usher in Prime Minister Swinson.


DM

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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#233168

Postby BobbyD » July 1st, 2019, 2:53 pm

dionaeamuscipula wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
It would be unlikely that either candidate will be able to find anyone in the EU to negotiate with before 31st October since the EU is busy replacing the commission and making appointments to other EU institutions but pulling the decision date on whether to leave without a deal even further forward makes it pretty much impossible.


I note that Hunt has joined Raab in admitting that an emergency budget will be required.

Hunt seems to be trying to take member votes off Johnson by sounding more and more like him on Brexit. I'm not sure that is a winning strategy.

I'm not sure his cunning plan of using no-deal brexit as a negotiating stance is a winning strategy either.

In fact the more I hear from Hunt the more convinced I am that (since it can't be Gove) it has to be Johnson, especially if his premiership ends in a rapid election defeat and we can usher in Prime Minister Swinson.


DM


Doomed, doomedier, doomediest.

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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#233176

Postby zico » July 1st, 2019, 3:14 pm

Hunt seems to be trying to take member votes off Johnson by sounding more and more like him on Brexit. I'm not sure that is a winning strategy.


Actually, I think Hunt is being very clever here. He's established himself as someone with a personality, and somebody more reliable than Johnson, but his big minus is that he wasn't as Brexity as Johnson, so aping Johnson's strategy, but selling himself as the more reliable person to get a good deal seems a good plan. He'll probably still lose of course, but his strategy gives him the best shot.

I'm not sure his cunning plan of using no-deal brexit as a negotiating stance is a winning strategy either.


Well, renegotiation is probably all wish-fulfilment fantasy anyway (unless people really believe that it is a man's job to deal with the foreign chappies to get them to see things our way, and a woman just couldn't cut it) so Hunt's idea of 30th Sept to decide on no-deal might fool people into thinking his date is better than Johnson's 31st Oct date, because it's a month earlier!

In fact the more I hear from Hunt the more convinced I am that (since it can't be Gove) it has to be Johnson, especially if his premiership ends in a rapid election defeat and we can usher in Prime Minister Swinson.


I voted for "future PM Swinson" today. Having being the floatiest of floating voters all my adult life, I actually joined the LibDems shortly after the Brexit vote, just to give a bit of money and support to the only party clearly saying in 2016 that Brexit was a bad thing and wouldn't work out well for us (what amazing clairvoyance skills they had), though I certainly wouldn't say I'm a strident party activist. I saw the Davey v Swinson debate on Sky this morning where they both talked sense, but Swinson was more succinct and direct, with a bit of passion to her, and also more likely to appeal to the younger vote in the next General Election. Whichever of them wins, they'll be better people than the Conservative and Labour leaders in my view.

In the latest GE opinion polls (link attached) Conservatives are generally slightly ahead of Labour, but both Brexit Party and Lib Dems breathing down their necks.
Traditionally, minor parties fall away in support when it comes to the actual vote, but we live in interesting times, and it seems almost certain there'll be a GE with Brexit still undecided. My previous statement will probably hold true even if we don't have a GE until 2022!

https://www.markpack.org.uk/155623/voti ... scorecard/

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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#233183

Postby BobbyD » July 1st, 2019, 3:36 pm

zico wrote:In the latest GE opinion polls (link attached) Conservatives are generally slightly ahead of Labour, but both Brexit Party and Lib Dems breathing down their necks.
Traditionally, minor parties fall away in support when it comes to the actual vote, but we live in interesting times, and it seems almost certain there'll be a GE with Brexit still undecided. My previous statement will probably hold true even if we don't have a GE until 2022!

https://www.markpack.org.uk/155623/voti ... scorecard/


Normally it's clear which are the minor parties...

zico
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Re: Tory Leadership candidates

#233185

Postby zico » July 1st, 2019, 3:45 pm

Normally it's clear which are the minor parties


Very true! I honestly wouldn't be surprised at any UK political developments now (except for Boris Johnson getting an acceptable new deal agreed with the EU before 31st Oct, that's the one thing that I really don't think will happen). If the 2 "historically main" parties continue in their current vein, they could easily become the minor parties, followed by splits in both into separate new parties.


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