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Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

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Nimrod103
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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234651

Postby Nimrod103 » July 7th, 2019, 5:52 pm

SteMiS wrote:
richfool wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
So Remain MP's voting against Leaving with May's deal were duplicitous thwarters of the people's will, but Leave MP's voting against Leaving on May's deal were what ...full bloodedly pursuing a genuine Leave? No double standards there... A vote against was a vote against, and every MP who voted against it had exactly the same effect on the result.

The truth is having steadfastly ignored Parliament and her own party May negotiated a deal which was never going to pass, and then put a gun to her head and begged them not to make her pull the trigger. The idea that MP's should have passed any old deal put before them is risible, and ignores, as many MP's do, the duty of care MP's owe both the country and their constituents.

May's deal wasn't really a proper Brexit. It was Brexit in name only, which is why many Brexit MP's voted against it. They were as you say, trying to ensure a duty of care to the country and their constituents by ensuring a proper Brexit.

Leaving the EU means no longer being a member. May's deal would have resulted in the UK no longer being a member. It's a simple matter of legality. Your attempt to define it as something else is just your opinion. However there is no mandate in the referendum for that opinion. If Vote Leave wanted to specify the type of Brexit it was campaigning for then it should have been explicit and set it out in a manifesto. It didn't.


Was it not all set out in the Governments expensive booklet?

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234656

Postby XFool » July 7th, 2019, 6:14 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
SteMiS wrote:Leaving the EU means no longer being a member. May's deal would have resulted in the UK no longer being a member. It's a simple matter of legality. Your attempt to define it as something else is just your opinion. However there is no mandate in the referendum for that opinion. If Vote Leave wanted to specify the type of Brexit it was campaigning for then it should have been explicit and set it out in a manifesto. It didn't.

Was it not all set out in the Governments expensive booklet?

So the Leaver's manifesto was in the government's pro Remain booklet?

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234664

Postby SteMiS » July 7th, 2019, 7:01 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
SteMiS wrote:
richfool wrote:May's deal wasn't really a proper Brexit. It was Brexit in name only, which is why many Brexit MP's voted against it. They were as you say, trying to ensure a duty of care to the country and their constituents by ensuring a proper Brexit.

Leaving the EU means no longer being a member. May's deal would have resulted in the UK no longer being a member. It's a simple matter of legality. Your attempt to define it as something else is just your opinion. However there is no mandate in the referendum for that opinion. If Vote Leave wanted to specify the type of Brexit it was campaigning for then it should have been explicit and set it out in a manifesto. It didn't.


Was it not all set out in the Governments expensive booklet?

No it wasn't. This is just a Brexiteer urban myth. If you don't believe me, read the leaflet...

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234690

Postby Wizard » July 7th, 2019, 7:47 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Wizard wrote:
XFool wrote:Oh, right. ;)

As has been shown multiple times on this board, if every ERG member had voted for May’s deal in the third meaningful vote it would still not have passed. But Remainers feel it necessary to repeat this untruth, while in the same breath expressing utter dismay at what they describe as Leave lies during the referendum campaign in 2016. No hypocrisy there then.


May lost the third meaningful vote by 58 votes with 34 Conservatives and the 10 DUP members voting against her deal.
Of the 34 Conservatives about half a dozen were remain/second referendum supporting MPs.

https://ig.ft.com/brexit-exit-deal-vote/

How MPs voted on May's withdrawal deal defeat
.
.
.
The remaining 34 diehard naysayers - who believe Mrs May’s deal leaves Britain tied too closely to the EU - were mostly made up of other ERG figures, including Bernard Jenkin, Owen Paterson, Steve Baker and Theresa Villiers. Mr Jenkin said he would rather push for a long extension than endure the prime minister’s deal, which gave the EU “draconian” control over Britain. Mr Baker said the deal was “finished” at last, and concluded: “We must move on.”

But there were also half a dozen Europhile Tory MPs who rebelled because they want a second referendum instead. They include Jo Johnson, Justine Greening, Sam Gyimah, Phillip Lee and Dominic Grieve.


https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-29/division/B6052BBD-43BE-4A30-8365-E3A8B108009E/UnitedKingdom%E2%80%99SWithdrawalFromTheEuropeanUnion?outputType=Party

On their own the non-remain Conservatives (34 - 6 = 28) wouldn't have quite been enough to produce a win for May if instead of voting against they had voted with the Government but if that solidarity had also got the DUP onside then they would have won (that would even be the case if the FT article is underestimating the number of remain/second vote supporting Conservative MPs eg if instead of 6 there were 12)

Hence although your statement that if every ERG member had voted for May's deal it still wouldn't have passed is true that isn't the fault of remain supporters it is the fault of leavers in both the ERG and DUP not being prepared to support her deal.

My bold.

You assume everyone that is not a remain Tory who voted against the May deal is an ERG member, that is wrong, some of the most extreme leavers are not ERG members, such as Bill Cash. As for the DUP, I do not think any DUP members are part of the ERG, so that is simply irrelevant here.

But despite that you agree I am right. I did not say it was the fauly of remainers, I said saying the deal did not pass because some ERG members voted against it was an often repeated untruth on this forum by remain supporters. So I am not really sure what you post is seekjng to achieve.

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234695

Postby Wizard » July 7th, 2019, 7:56 pm

BobbyD wrote:
Wizard wrote:
XFool wrote:Oh, right. ;)

As has been shown multiple times on this board, if every ERG member had voted for May’s deal in the third meaningful vote it would still not have passed. But Remainers feel it necessary to repeat this untruth, while in the same breath expressing utter dismay at what they describe as Leave lies during the referendum campaign in 2016. No hypocrisy there then.


So Remain MP's voting against Leaving with May's deal were duplicitous thwarters of the people's will, but Leave MP's voting against Leaving on May's deal were what ...full bloodedly pursuing a genuine Leave? No double standards there... A vote against was a vote against, and every MP who voted against it had exactly the same effect on the result.

The truth is having steadfastly ignored Parliament and her own party May negotiated a deal which was never going to pass, and then put a gun to her head and begged them not to make her pull the trigger. The idea that MP's should have passed any old deal put before them is risible, and ignores, as many MP's do, the duty of care MP's owe both the country and their constituents.

I am not sure why you have quoted me as part of your post, what you have written has nothing to do with what I said. Instead you try to put words in my mouth to make me look unreasonable. A bit too transparent I am afraid.

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234706

Postby ursaminortaur » July 7th, 2019, 8:36 pm

Wizard wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
Wizard wrote:As has been shown multiple times on this board, if every ERG member had voted for May’s deal in the third meaningful vote it would still not have passed. But Remainers feel it necessary to repeat this untruth, while in the same breath expressing utter dismay at what they describe as Leave lies during the referendum campaign in 2016. No hypocrisy there then.


May lost the third meaningful vote by 58 votes with 34 Conservatives and the 10 DUP members voting against her deal.
Of the 34 Conservatives about half a dozen were remain/second referendum supporting MPs.

https://ig.ft.com/brexit-exit-deal-vote/

How MPs voted on May's withdrawal deal defeat
.
.
.
The remaining 34 diehard naysayers - who believe Mrs May’s deal leaves Britain tied too closely to the EU - were mostly made up of other ERG figures, including Bernard Jenkin, Owen Paterson, Steve Baker and Theresa Villiers. Mr Jenkin said he would rather push for a long extension than endure the prime minister’s deal, which gave the EU “draconian” control over Britain. Mr Baker said the deal was “finished” at last, and concluded: “We must move on.”

But there were also half a dozen Europhile Tory MPs who rebelled because they want a second referendum instead. They include Jo Johnson, Justine Greening, Sam Gyimah, Phillip Lee and Dominic Grieve.


https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-29/division/B6052BBD-43BE-4A30-8365-E3A8B108009E/UnitedKingdom%E2%80%99SWithdrawalFromTheEuropeanUnion?outputType=Party

On their own the non-remain Conservatives (34 - 6 = 28) wouldn't have quite been enough to produce a win for May if instead of voting against they had voted with the Government but if that solidarity had also got the DUP onside then they would have won (that would even be the case if the FT article is underestimating the number of remain/second vote supporting Conservative MPs eg if instead of 6 there were 12)

Hence although your statement that if every ERG member had voted for May's deal it still wouldn't have passed is true that isn't the fault of remain supporters it is the fault of leavers in both the ERG and DUP not being prepared to support her deal.

My bold.

You assume everyone that is not a remain Tory who voted against the May deal is an ERG member, that is wrong, some of the most extreme leavers are not ERG members, such as Bill Cash. As for the DUP, I do not think any DUP members are part of the ERG, so that is simply irrelevant here.

But despite that you agree I am right. I did not say it was the fauly of remainers, I said saying the deal did not pass because some ERG members voted against it was an often repeated untruth on this forum by remain supporters. So I am not really sure what you post is seekjng to achieve.


The XFool comment you were responding to was

Plus the ERG?


from

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=18381&start=20#p234311

which is correct since the failure of the third vote on May's deal was because of votes against it by opposition parties, Tory remainers, the DUP PLUS the ERG.

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234710

Postby Wizard » July 7th, 2019, 8:46 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Wizard wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
May lost the third meaningful vote by 58 votes with 34 Conservatives and the 10 DUP members voting against her deal.
Of the 34 Conservatives about half a dozen were remain/second referendum supporting MPs.

https://ig.ft.com/brexit-exit-deal-vote/

How MPs voted on May's withdrawal deal defeat
.
.
.
The remaining 34 diehard naysayers - who believe Mrs May’s deal leaves Britain tied too closely to the EU - were mostly made up of other ERG figures, including Bernard Jenkin, Owen Paterson, Steve Baker and Theresa Villiers. Mr Jenkin said he would rather push for a long extension than endure the prime minister’s deal, which gave the EU “draconian” control over Britain. Mr Baker said the deal was “finished” at last, and concluded: “We must move on.”

But there were also half a dozen Europhile Tory MPs who rebelled because they want a second referendum instead. They include Jo Johnson, Justine Greening, Sam Gyimah, Phillip Lee and Dominic Grieve.


https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-29/division/B6052BBD-43BE-4A30-8365-E3A8B108009E/UnitedKingdom%E2%80%99SWithdrawalFromTheEuropeanUnion?outputType=Party

On their own the non-remain Conservatives (34 - 6 = 28) wouldn't have quite been enough to produce a win for May if instead of voting against they had voted with the Government but if that solidarity had also got the DUP onside then they would have won (that would even be the case if the FT article is underestimating the number of remain/second vote supporting Conservative MPs eg if instead of 6 there were 12)

Hence although your statement that if every ERG member had voted for May's deal it still wouldn't have passed is true that isn't the fault of remain supporters it is the fault of leavers in both the ERG and DUP not being prepared to support her deal.

My bold.

You assume everyone that is not a remain Tory who voted against the May deal is an ERG member, that is wrong, some of the most extreme leavers are not ERG members, such as Bill Cash. As for the DUP, I do not think any DUP members are part of the ERG, so that is simply irrelevant here.

But despite that you agree I am right. I did not say it was the fauly of remainers, I said saying the deal did not pass because some ERG members voted against it was an often repeated untruth on this forum by remain supporters. So I am not really sure what you post is seekjng to achieve.


The XFool comment you were responding to was

Plus the ERG?


from

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=18381&start=20#p234311

which is correct since the failure of the third vote on May's deal was because of votes against it by opposition parties, Tory remainers, the DUP PLUS the ERG.

But you agreed that even if the ERG members voted for the deal it would not have passed, have you now changed your mind? The point remains, if all ERG members had voted for the deal in the third meaningful vote it would not have passed.

I am not a fan of the ERG particularly, but I think it wrong that remainers try to misrepresent that some ERG members prevented the May deal from passing.

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234720

Postby ursaminortaur » July 7th, 2019, 9:12 pm

Wizard wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
Wizard wrote:My bold.

You assume everyone that is not a remain Tory who voted against the May deal is an ERG member, that is wrong, some of the most extreme leavers are not ERG members, such as Bill Cash. As for the DUP, I do not think any DUP members are part of the ERG, so that is simply irrelevant here.

But despite that you agree I am right. I did not say it was the fauly of remainers, I said saying the deal did not pass because some ERG members voted against it was an often repeated untruth on this forum by remain supporters. So I am not really sure what you post is seekjng to achieve.


The XFool comment you were responding to was

Plus the ERG?


from

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=18381&start=20#p234311

which is correct since the failure of the third vote on May's deal was because of votes against it by opposition parties, Tory remainers, the DUP PLUS the ERG.

But you agreed that even if the ERG members voted for the deal it would not have passed, have you now changed your mind? The point remains, if all ERG members had voted for the deal in the third meaningful vote it would not have passed.

I am not a fan of the ERG particularly, but I think it wrong that remainers try to misrepresent that some ERG members prevented the May deal from passing.


The point that was being argued was that it was somehow just the "duplicitous" remainers thwarting brexit whereas in reality ERG members and the DUP voted against Mays deal. If all of the ERG and DUP had voted for May's deal on the third meaningful vote it would have passed and we would have left.

Wizard
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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234731

Postby Wizard » July 7th, 2019, 10:11 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Wizard wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
The XFool comment you were responding to was



from

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=18381&start=20#p234311

which is correct since the failure of the third vote on May's deal was because of votes against it by opposition parties, Tory remainers, the DUP PLUS the ERG.

But you agreed that even if the ERG members voted for the deal it would not have passed, have you now changed your mind? The point remains, if all ERG members had voted for the deal in the third meaningful vote it would not have passed.

I am not a fan of the ERG particularly, but I think it wrong that remainers try to misrepresent that some ERG members prevented the May deal from passing.


The point that was being argued was that it was somehow just the "duplicitous" remainers thwarting brexit whereas in reality ERG members and the DUP voted against Mays deal. If all of the ERG and DUP had voted for May's deal on the third meaningful vote it would have passed and we would have left.


I am making a simple point, if the ERG had all voted for the May deal in the third meaningful vote it would still not have passed. I make this point because people keep suggesting it wss the ERG that stopped the deal passing, that is factually wrong. You have begrudgingly agreed that it is wrong, so thank you for that. I do not see what you are trying to achieve by adding the DUP in to the numbers as they were not mentioned in the post I was responding to.

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234734

Postby SteMiS » July 7th, 2019, 10:28 pm

Wizard wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
Wizard wrote:My bold.

You assume everyone that is not a remain Tory who voted against the May deal is an ERG member, that is wrong, some of the most extreme leavers are not ERG members, such as Bill Cash. As for the DUP, I do not think any DUP members are part of the ERG, so that is simply irrelevant here.

But despite that you agree I am right. I did not say it was the fauly of remainers, I said saying the deal did not pass because some ERG members voted against it was an often repeated untruth on this forum by remain supporters. So I am not really sure what you post is seekjng to achieve.


The XFool comment you were responding to was

Plus the ERG?


from

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=18381&start=20#p234311

which is correct since the failure of the third vote on May's deal was because of votes against it by opposition parties, Tory remainers, the DUP PLUS the ERG.

But you agreed that even if the ERG members voted for the deal it would not have passed, have you now changed your mind? The point remains, if all ERG members had voted for the deal in the third meaningful vote it would not have passed.

I am not a fan of the ERG particularly, but I think it wrong that remainers try to misrepresent that some ERG members prevented the May deal from passing.

The ERG may not alone have caused MV3 to fail but they are part of those whose votes stopped what would have unequivocally have been Leave, so they are as responsible as anyone else who voted against it. Brexiteers seem to want to pick and chose those who they blame. The 6 Tory Remain rebels could not alone have swung the vote but they are routinely described by Tory Remainers as 'traitors' and 'anti democratic' and threatened with de-selection. Yet the ERG are let off because...er, couldn't have swung the vote anyway. It's okay for hard Brexiteers to have principles, even though they have NO mandate from the referendum for their views yet Remainers aren't allowed principles because...er, don't have mandate from the referendum for their views. It's the inconsistency which is being pointed out.

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234736

Postby ursaminortaur » July 7th, 2019, 10:31 pm

Wizard wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
Wizard wrote:But you agreed that even if the ERG members voted for the deal it would not have passed, have you now changed your mind? The point remains, if all ERG members had voted for the deal in the third meaningful vote it would not have passed.

I am not a fan of the ERG particularly, but I think it wrong that remainers try to misrepresent that some ERG members prevented the May deal from passing.


The point that was being argued was that it was somehow just the "duplicitous" remainers thwarting brexit whereas in reality ERG members and the DUP voted against Mays deal. If all of the ERG and DUP had voted for May's deal on the third meaningful vote it would have passed and we would have left.


I am making a simple point, if the ERG had all voted for the May deal in the third meaningful vote it would still not have passed. I make this point because people keep suggesting it wss the ERG that stopped the deal passing, that is factually wrong. You have begrudgingly agreed that it is wrong, so thank you for that. I do not see what you are trying to achieve by adding the DUP in to the numbers as they were not mentioned in the post I was responding to.


Nothing begrudging about it I agree that the ERG switching on its own would not have resulted in May's deal passing. However the ERG and DUP switching would have which shows that it wasn't just remainers who blocked brexit.

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234751

Postby BobbyD » July 7th, 2019, 11:59 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Wizard wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
May lost the third meaningful vote by 58 votes with 34 Conservatives and the 10 DUP members voting against her deal.
Of the 34 Conservatives about half a dozen were remain/second referendum supporting MPs.

https://ig.ft.com/brexit-exit-deal-vote/

How MPs voted on May's withdrawal deal defeat
.
.
.
The remaining 34 diehard naysayers - who believe Mrs May’s deal leaves Britain tied too closely to the EU - were mostly made up of other ERG figures, including Bernard Jenkin, Owen Paterson, Steve Baker and Theresa Villiers. Mr Jenkin said he would rather push for a long extension than endure the prime minister’s deal, which gave the EU “draconian” control over Britain. Mr Baker said the deal was “finished” at last, and concluded: “We must move on.”

But there were also half a dozen Europhile Tory MPs who rebelled because they want a second referendum instead. They include Jo Johnson, Justine Greening, Sam Gyimah, Phillip Lee and Dominic Grieve.


https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-29/division/B6052BBD-43BE-4A30-8365-E3A8B108009E/UnitedKingdom%E2%80%99SWithdrawalFromTheEuropeanUnion?outputType=Party

On their own the non-remain Conservatives (34 - 6 = 28) wouldn't have quite been enough to produce a win for May if instead of voting against they had voted with the Government but if that solidarity had also got the DUP onside then they would have won (that would even be the case if the FT article is underestimating the number of remain/second vote supporting Conservative MPs eg if instead of 6 there were 12)

Hence although your statement that if every ERG member had voted for May's deal it still wouldn't have passed is true that isn't the fault of remain supporters it is the fault of leavers in both the ERG and DUP not being prepared to support her deal.

My bold.

You assume everyone that is not a remain Tory who voted against the May deal is an ERG member, that is wrong, some of the most extreme leavers are not ERG members, such as Bill Cash. As for the DUP, I do not think any DUP members are part of the ERG, so that is simply irrelevant here.

But despite that you agree I am right. I did not say it was the fauly of remainers, I said saying the deal did not pass because some ERG members voted against it was an often repeated untruth on this forum by remain supporters. So I am not really sure what you post is seekjng to achieve.


The XFool comment you were responding to was

Plus the ERG?


from

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=18381&start=20#p234311

which is correct since the failure of the third vote on May's deal was because of votes against it by opposition parties, Tory remainers, the DUP PLUS the ERG.


The bit you conveniently cropped out of the thread before your original response was...

richfool wrote:
XFool wrote:
richfool wrote:Not very well, as there are too many duplicitous and/or remainer MP's trying to thwart the completion of the process and stop the will of the people being delivered.

Plus the ERG?

No.


Now if MP's who voted against May's deal are duplicitous and/or Remainers, what does that make ERG MP's who voted against the deal?

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234753

Postby BobbyD » July 8th, 2019, 12:06 am

Wizard wrote:
I am not a fan of the ERG particularly, but I think it wrong that remainers try to misrepresent that some ERG members prevented the May deal from passing.


It is incredibly rich of Leavers to imply that Remainers who voted against the deal are duplicitous deniers of the people's will whilst at the same time claiming Leavers who voted against the deal are valiant defenders of the people's will... Either a vote against the bill was a betrayal or it wasn't, regardless of the opinion of the MP casting it.

The fault lies in the WA and those who negotiated it, it simply wasn't good enough to pass the UK legislature.

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234778

Postby Wizard » July 8th, 2019, 8:27 am

SteMiS wrote:
Wizard wrote:But you agreed that even if the ERG members voted for the deal it would not have passed, have you now changed your mind? The point remains, if all ERG members had voted for the deal in the third meaningful vote it would not have passed.

I am not a fan of the ERG particularly, but I think it wrong that remainers try to misrepresent that some ERG members prevented the May deal from passing.

The ERG may not alone have caused MV3 to fail but they are part of those whose votes stopped what would have unequivocally have been Leave, so they are as responsible as anyone else who voted against it. Brexiteers seem to want to pick and chose those who they blame.

I agree with that, but I see it from both sides. Some leave supporters blame only the remain supporting MPs, some remain supporters blame only the ERG (usually mistakenly thinking every leave supportting MP is part of the ERG, which is not the case). Both are wrong.

SteMiS wrote:The 6 Tory Remain rebels could not alone have swung the vote but they are routinely described by Tory Remainers as 'traitors' and 'anti democratic' and threatened with de-selection. Yet the ERG are let off because...er, couldn't have swung the vote anyway. It's okay for hard Brexiteers to have principles, even though they have NO mandate from the referendum for their views yet Remainers aren't allowed principles because...er, don't have mandate from the referendum for their views. It's the inconsistency which is being pointed out.

I do not call them traitors, in the past I have had Dominic Grieve on my list of principled MPs who have acted with integrity during the process. But maybe that is because I do not consider myself a "hard Brexiteer", if you can define what you mean by that term I can confirm one way or another.

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234781

Postby Wizard » July 8th, 2019, 8:34 am

BobbyD wrote:
Wizard wrote:
I am not a fan of the ERG particularly, but I think it wrong that remainers try to misrepresent that some ERG members prevented the May deal from passing.


It is incredibly rich of Leavers to imply that Remainers who voted against the deal are duplicitous deniers of the people's will whilst at the same time claiming Leavers who voted against the deal are valiant defenders of the people's will... Either a vote against the bill was a betrayal or it wasn't, regardless of the opinion of the MP casting it.

The fault lies in the WA and those who negotiated it, it simply wasn't good enough to pass the UK legislature.

Your only response to a critique of some remainers is to lash out at some leavers, rather than respond to my point in any way.

But I completely agree with your point regarding the WA, May and her team did a dreadful job and IMHO there has not had enough of an examination of this by the media. I hope historians are better at calling her to account and I hope she lives long enough to see she will forever be considered an abject failure.

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234784

Postby XFool » July 8th, 2019, 8:50 am

Wizard wrote:
SteMiS wrote:
Wizard wrote:But you agreed that even if the ERG members voted for the deal it would not have passed, have you now changed your mind? The point remains, if all ERG members had voted for the deal in the third meaningful vote it would not have passed.

I am not a fan of the ERG particularly, but I think it wrong that remainers try to misrepresent that some ERG members prevented the May deal from passing.

The ERG may not alone have caused MV3 to fail but they are part of those whose votes stopped what would have unequivocally have been Leave, so they are as responsible as anyone else who voted against it. Brexiteers seem to want to pick and chose those who they blame.

I agree with that, but I see it from both sides. Some leave supporters blame only the remain supporting MPs, some remain supporters blame only the ERG (usually mistakenly thinking every leave supportting MP is part of the ERG, which is not the case). Both are wrong.

I am sceptical many Remain supporters believe all leave supporting (Conservative) MPs are members of the ERG. It is well known as a fairly small group of very anti-EU Conservative MPs.

Wizard wrote:
SteMiS wrote:The 6 Tory Remain rebels could not alone have swung the vote but they are routinely described by Tory Remainers as 'traitors' and 'anti democratic' and threatened with de-selection. Yet the ERG are let off because...er, couldn't have swung the vote anyway. It's okay for hard Brexiteers to have principles, even though they have NO mandate from the referendum for their views yet Remainers aren't allowed principles because...er, don't have mandate from the referendum for their views. It's the inconsistency which is being pointed out.

I do not call them traitors, in the past I have had Dominic Grieve on my list of principled MPs who have acted with integrity during the process. But maybe that is because I do not consider myself a "hard Brexiteer", if you can define what you mean by that term I can confirm one way or another.

Surely that is quite easy? Certainly anyone who believer's in 'Brexit at any price', more loosely it is usually applied to those who want or believe in a 'no deal' Brexit.

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234844

Postby Wizard » July 8th, 2019, 11:49 am

XFool wrote:
Wizard wrote:
SteMiS wrote:The ERG may not alone have caused MV3 to fail but they are part of those whose votes stopped what would have unequivocally have been Leave, so they are as responsible as anyone else who voted against it. Brexiteers seem to want to pick and chose those who they blame.

I agree with that, but I see it from both sides. Some leave supporters blame only the remain supporting MPs, some remain supporters blame only the ERG (usually mistakenly thinking every leave supportting MP is part of the ERG, which is not the case). Both are wrong.

I am sceptical many Remain supporters believe all leave supporting (Conservative) MPs are members of the ERG. It is well known as a fairly small group of very anti-EU Conservative MPs.

Wizard wrote:
SteMiS wrote:The 6 Tory Remain rebels could not alone have swung the vote but they are routinely described by Tory Remainers as 'traitors' and 'anti democratic' and threatened with de-selection. Yet the ERG are let off because...er, couldn't have swung the vote anyway. It's okay for hard Brexiteers to have principles, even though they have NO mandate from the referendum for their views yet Remainers aren't allowed principles because...er, don't have mandate from the referendum for their views. It's the inconsistency which is being pointed out.

I do not call them traitors, in the past I have had Dominic Grieve on my list of principled MPs who have acted with integrity during the process. But maybe that is because I do not consider myself a "hard Brexiteer", if you can define what you mean by that term I can confirm one way or another.

Surely that is quite easy? Certainly anyone who believer's in 'Brexit at any price', more loosely it is usually applied to those who want or believe in a 'no deal' Brexit.

But the calculation done further up this thread was to take all Tories that voted against MV3, deduct the known remain supporters and infer the balance were all ERG, so clearly it is not that well understood.

By that definition I do not think I am a "hard Brexiteer" as I do not favour Brexit at any cost and think a no deal exit at this time would not be a good idea.

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234927

Postby BobbyD » July 8th, 2019, 3:40 pm

Wizard wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
Wizard wrote:
I am not a fan of the ERG particularly, but I think it wrong that remainers try to misrepresent that some ERG members prevented the May deal from passing.


It is incredibly rich of Leavers to imply that Remainers who voted against the deal are duplicitous deniers of the people's will whilst at the same time claiming Leavers who voted against the deal are valiant defenders of the people's will... Either a vote against the bill was a betrayal or it wasn't, regardless of the opinion of the MP casting it.

The fault lies in the WA and those who negotiated it, it simply wasn't good enough to pass the UK legislature.

Your only response to a critique of some remainers is to lash out at some leavers, rather than respond to my point in any way.


My response to people applying double standards to MP's who voted against the WA is to point out the double standard being applied to MP's who voted against the WA. I haven't lashed out at anybody, and your transparent attempts to derail a thread by attributing intent and meaning to other posters which they never posted appear increasingly desperate.

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234953

Postby Wizard » July 8th, 2019, 5:40 pm

BobbyD wrote:
Wizard wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
It is incredibly rich of Leavers to imply that Remainers who voted against the deal are duplicitous deniers of the people's will whilst at the same time claiming Leavers who voted against the deal are valiant defenders of the people's will... Either a vote against the bill was a betrayal or it wasn't, regardless of the opinion of the MP casting it.

The fault lies in the WA and those who negotiated it, it simply wasn't good enough to pass the UK legislature.

Your only response to a critique of some remainers is to lash out at some leavers, rather than respond to my point in any way.


My response to people applying double standards to MP's who voted against the WA is to point out the double standard being applied to MP's who voted against the WA. I haven't lashed out at anybody, and your transparent attempts to derail a thread by attributing intent and meaning to other posters which they never posted appear increasingly desperate.

Please explain what double standard I am applying? I have already said I respect the integrity of some remain supporting MPs that chose to vote against the WA in MV3. In the absence of that, as I said, your only response to a critique of your 'side' of the argument is to starting having a go at those on the other 'side'. You never try to justify any actions or statements by remainers, rather your approach is consistently to drop one liners about easy deals to try and score cheap points or in some way be funny. It demonstrates a rather one dimensional view. But then that is not a surprise as about the one time I can remember you offering a substantive opinion it was to tell us that Change UK represented an existential threat to both Labour and the Conservatives.

As for derailing the thread, it started as a thread about a politically motivated legal action by a remainer trying to undermine the referendum result being thrown out by the court of appeal. More broadly it was a legal case seeking to move political debate away from campaigns and in to the courts, which I personally think would be a very bad thing for democracy in this country. I think any statements about what has or hasn't happened in Parliament initiated by others mean the thread was derailed some time ago rather then by me. But very happy to return to the start of the thread and Marcus Ball's humiliation in the court of appeal. Please feel free to share your view on that.

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Re: Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct

#234971

Postby XFool » July 8th, 2019, 6:33 pm

Wizard wrote:I think any statements about what has or hasn't happened in Parliament initiated by others mean the thread was derailed some time ago rather then by me. But very happy to return to the start of the thread and Marcus Ball's humiliation in the court of appeal. Please feel free to share your view on that.

Well my view is simply that the Subject of the OP and this thread is itself a falsehood: 'Judge rules Vote Leave £350m figure correct'

But this has already been dealt with in various posts above.


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