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Well Said Mrs May

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scotia
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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235328

Postby scotia » July 9th, 2019, 8:23 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:It does seem incredible that the British ambassador sends numerous emails home simply regurgitating gossip and views about Trump and the White house that have already been widely touted in the newspapers. He didn't seem to add anything or, as another poster has pointed out, provide any new 'evidence' for his schoolboy insults.

And how do you know he was simply regurgitating gossip?
One really would expect much better from a high flying diplomat.

And indeed - from our Prime Ministers comments, its perfectly clear that she got much better. He had his ear close to the ground and was reporting faithfully what was going on. Should he have just ignored the disfunctional behaviour in the White House and pretended that all was OK?

On this basis Trump's reporting of Darroch as being said to be a pompous fool seems quite accurate and in Trump's case perhaps it's an example of 'it takes one to know one'?

I can't see anything pompous about our Ambassador's behaviour. Make your own mind up about Trump
Boris will no doubt have to find some way of replacing him as he obviously can't continue after this if the US Government won't have any dealings with him.

I think you are correct about Boris - not well known for his Moral Fibre. The Third Runway?
From Max Hastings:- Yet his graver vice is cowardice, reflected in a willingness to tell any audience, whatever he thinks most likely to please, heedless of the inevitability of its contradiction an hour later.

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235353

Postby Nimrod103 » July 9th, 2019, 9:37 pm

scotia wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:It does seem incredible that the British ambassador sends numerous emails home simply regurgitating gossip and views about Trump and the White house that have already been widely touted in the newspapers. He didn't seem to add anything or, as another poster has pointed out, provide any new 'evidence' for his schoolboy insults.

And how do you know he was simply regurgitating gossip?
One really would expect much better from a high flying diplomat.

And indeed - from our Prime Ministers comments, its perfectly clear that she got much better. He had his ear close to the ground and was reporting faithfully what was going on. Should he have just ignored the disfunctional behaviour in the White House and pretended that all was OK?

On this basis Trump's reporting of Darroch as being said to be a pompous fool seems quite accurate and in Trump's case perhaps it's an example of 'it takes one to know one'?

I can't see anything pompous about our Ambassador's behaviour. Make your own mind up about Trump
Boris will no doubt have to find some way of replacing him as he obviously can't continue after this if the US Government won't have any dealings with him.

I think you are correct about Boris - not well known for his Moral Fibre. The Third Runway?
From Max Hastings:- Yet his graver vice is cowardice, reflected in a willingness to tell any audience, whatever he thinks most likely to please, heedless of the inevitability of its contradiction an hour later.


I didn't realize the 3rd runway at Heathrow was a moral issue. It is a very difficult issue where it is clearly an absolute necessity for the future prosperity of the UK, yet a combination of the eco movement, and some stupid housing developments which have crept up to the airport limits, make it a real headache for politicians to decide. Almost all politicians are hopping from one foot to the other, hoping that they won't be the ones who have to make the decision. I really cannot blame Boris for trying to find a solution in the Thames Estuary or changing his stance on the issue.

Getting back to Trump, too many people here are taking an evidence free partisan approach, just like the luckless ambassador. The fact that his administration has continued not fallen, his domestic and foreign policies have been refreshingly different, and may actually solve what to do about N Korea, Iran, China and Russia, and the fact that he stands a fair chance of being re-elected, all just go to prove how wide of the mark the Ambassador's advice has been.

PS that Max Hastings is an enemy of Boris is hardly surprising, seeing as he is a true Blairite, and presumably a Cameron/May supporter. He must have found himself quite out of step with the direction Boris may go in future.

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235356

Postby XFool » July 9th, 2019, 9:46 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:It does seem incredible that the British ambassador sends numerous emails home simply regurgitating gossip and views about Trump and the White house that have already been widely touted in the newspapers.

You mean by now they are already well known? Can't disagree with that.

scrumpyjack wrote:He didn't seem to add anything or, as another poster has pointed out, provide any new 'evidence' for his schoolboy insults.

"schoolboy insults"? You mean the plain facts, no?

scrumpyjack wrote:One really would expect much better from a high flying diplomat.

I'd expect the straight unvarnished facts (I expect the government would too). What would you expect? BS? Fantasy? Flannel? Lies?

scrumpyjack wrote:On this basis Trump's reporting of Darroch as being said to be a pompous fool seems quite accurate and in Trump's case perhaps it's an example of 'it takes one to know one'?

You are in a position to judge, yeah?

scrumpyjack wrote:Boris will no doubt have to find some way of replacing him as he obviously can't continue after this if the US Government won't have any dealings with him.

Indeed. That sounds like just the sort of thing we can expect from the 'Churchillian' Boris Johnson.

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235359

Postby XFool » July 9th, 2019, 9:55 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:Getting back to Trump, too many people here are taking an evidence free partisan approach, just like the luckless ambassador.

Yeah? So there is no "evidence" from Trump's speeches, reported statements, biography, broadcast recordings, Tweets? No "evidence" from the serial appointments and resignations, the unfulfilled public offices, from the public rows and disputes, the much reported infighting, from the farcical press conferences? No "evidence" from the repeated public policy reversals?

You really have constructed your own private universe, haven't you?

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235369

Postby Nimrod103 » July 9th, 2019, 10:31 pm

XFool wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:Getting back to Trump, too many people here are taking an evidence free partisan approach, just like the luckless ambassador.

Yeah? So there is no "evidence" from Trump's speeches, reported statements, biography, broadcast recordings, Tweets? No "evidence" from the serial appointments and resignations, the unfulfilled public offices, from the public rows and disputes, the much reported infighting, from the farcical press conferences? No "evidence" from the repeated public policy reversals?

You really have constructed your own private universe, haven't you?


I'm afraid your rant cuts no ice with me. If the Trump administration was inept and disfunctional it would have fallen by now. It hasn't so the ambassador's words don't apply. Rumour going around is that the private comments were leaked by Remainers hoping to damage future US/UK relations. Hunt has fallen into the trap of backing the ambassador. This episode will not go well, untill the ambassador is replaced.

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235373

Postby scotia » July 9th, 2019, 10:40 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:I didn't realize the 3rd runway at Heathrow was a moral issue.

it is precisely an example of what Max Hastings (his previous employer) said about his cowardice. Boris promised to lie down in front of the Bulldozers to prevent a 3rd Runway - no ifs and no buts. Then later, he didn't even have the moral courage to appear at a parliamentary vote on the subject.
Now on to our Ambassadors accurate reporting. For two years, Boris as foreign secretary would have seen those reports. If he had thought that they were simply ill informed tittle tattle as you have suggested - why did he not do anything about it? Why did he not request the return of the Ambassador, and threaten to resign if his wish was not carried out?
But now - his solution will be to Kowtow to Donald, and sack the Ambassador.
Moral Fibre? Does the man know the meaning of the phrase?
I'll only digress briefly into your imagined successes of Trump's foreign policy. To most observers they seem to be non-existent or worse. He thinks the N Korea leader is a great guy, he couldn't face up to Putin, and has managed to get the hard liners in Iran back to power. As for China, his policy may lead to a world trade war. And pity help the UK outside the EU. If everybody says "Our Country First", a thirties recession is inevitable.

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235375

Postby mike » July 9th, 2019, 10:46 pm

scotia wrote:But now - his solution will be to Kowtow to Donald, and sack the Ambassador.


Should be interesting if Trump has seen this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hsiuEEcGTo (sound on, lasts about 1m30s)

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235378

Postby XFool » July 9th, 2019, 10:51 pm

...Great! :)

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235380

Postby scotia » July 9th, 2019, 11:05 pm

mike wrote:
scotia wrote:But now - his solution will be to Kowtow to Donald, and sack the Ambassador.

Should be interesting if Trump has seen this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hsiuEEcGTo (sound on, lasts about 1m30s)

It must have been all of that bad advice he got from the current UK Ambassador to the USA. I mean - otherwise how could Boris have ever thought such bad things about Donald?
Boy - was Max Hastings correct!

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235517

Postby scrumpyjack » July 10th, 2019, 12:06 pm

Beeb reports that the British ambassador has now resigned.

Only thing he could do really

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235533

Postby ursaminortaur » July 10th, 2019, 1:01 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:Beeb reports that the British ambassador has now resigned.

Only thing he could do really


The Guardian is reporting that the thing that swung it was the lack of any backing from Boris

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/10/kim-darroch-resigns-as-uk-ambassador-to-us-after-leaked-trump-comment

The Guardian understands that he concluded that his position was untenable after watching Tuesday’s Conservative leadership debate, in which the frontrunner, Boris Johnson, stopped short of backing him.

And the FT is taking the same line

https://www.ft.com/content/30475dfa-a301-11e9-a282-2df48f366f7d

Kim Darroch resigns as UK ambassador to Washington following leak
.
.
.
Whitehall sources said that Sir Kim watched Conservative leadership frontrunner Johnson in the televised debate on Tuesday evening and saw that next likely prime minister was someone who “when the chips are down was willing to throw civil servants under the bus”.

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235538

Postby Sundance13 » July 10th, 2019, 1:28 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:Beeb reports that the British ambassador has now resigned.

Only thing he could do really


The Guardian is reporting that the thing that swung it was the lack of any backing from Boris

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/10/kim-darroch-resigns-as-uk-ambassador-to-us-after-leaked-trump-comment

The Guardian understands that he concluded that his position was untenable after watching Tuesday’s Conservative leadership debate, in which the frontrunner, Boris Johnson, stopped short of backing him.

And the FT is taking the same line

https://www.ft.com/content/30475dfa-a301-11e9-a282-2df48f366f7d

Kim Darroch resigns as UK ambassador to Washington following leak
.
.
.
Whitehall sources said that Sir Kim watched Conservative leadership frontrunner Johnson in the televised debate on Tuesday evening and saw that next likely prime minister was someone who “when the chips are down was willing to throw civil servants under the bus”.



Yep, first step in the UKs new world role as the US’s lapdog.

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235541

Postby UncleIan » July 10th, 2019, 1:35 pm

Farage replaces him. Pulling the mouthpiece out of the Brexit Party. 2nd referendum. Remain wins by a landslide. Cunning these behind the scenes Machiavellian types.

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235545

Postby ursaminortaur » July 10th, 2019, 1:46 pm

UncleIan wrote:Farage replaces him. Pulling the mouthpiece out of the Brexit Party. 2nd referendum. Remain wins by a landslide. Cunning these behind the scenes Machiavellian types.


Trump suggested Farage be given the ambassadorship in 2016 which makes him fundamentally unsuited for the job - the ambassador is supposed to be our man in the US not Trump's man.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/22/nigel-farage-will-not-be-ambassador-to-us-say-no10-and-foreign-office-donald-trump

If Farage really did get the post under Boris then it would signal our total vassalage to the US.

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235546

Postby Sundance13 » July 10th, 2019, 1:54 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
UncleIan wrote:Farage replaces him. Pulling the mouthpiece out of the Brexit Party. 2nd referendum. Remain wins by a landslide. Cunning these behind the scenes Machiavellian types.


Trump suggested Farage be given the ambassadorship in 2016 which makes him fundamentally unsuited for the job - the ambassador is supposed to be our man in the US not Trump's man.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/22/nigel-farage-will-not-be-ambassador-to-us-say-no10-and-foreign-office-donald-trump

If Farage really did get the post under Boris then it would signal our total vassalage to the US.


It will certainly be a ‘true’ Brexiteer that’s for sure, that was the whole purpose of the leak in the first place, I imagine they’ve (those behind the plot) already have a person in mind & that individual will have been flagged to Boris already.

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235547

Postby XFool » July 10th, 2019, 1:55 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:Trump suggested Farage be given the ambassadorship in 2016 which makes him fundamentally unsuited for the job - the ambassador is supposed to be our man in the US not Trump's man.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/22/nigel-farage-will-not-be-ambassador-to-us-say-no10-and-foreign-office-donald-trump

If Farage really did get the post under Boris then it would signal our total vassalage to the US.

Let's hope it never happens.

If it did, the final irony: Brexit = The demise of Britain's sovereignty

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235548

Postby XFool » July 10th, 2019, 2:05 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:Beeb reports that the British ambassador has now resigned.

Only thing he could do really

The Guardian is reporting that the thing that swung it was the lack of any backing from Boris

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/10/kim-darroch-resigns-as-uk-ambassador-to-us-after-leaked-trump-comment

The Guardian understands that he concluded that his position was untenable after watching Tuesday’s Conservative leadership debate, in which the frontrunner, Boris Johnson, stopped short of backing him.

And the FT is taking the same line

https://www.ft.com/content/30475dfa-a301-11e9-a282-2df48f366f7d

Kim Darroch resigns as UK ambassador to Washington following leak
.
.
.
Whitehall sources said that Sir Kim watched Conservative leadership frontrunner Johnson in the televised debate on Tuesday evening and saw that next likely prime minister was someone who “when the chips are down was willing to throw civil servants under the bus”.

Just been similarly reported on the BBC R4 news.

Oh dear. So now we know exactly what Boris Johnson is made of. Our PM, or 'Their man in London'? :(

Brexit just keeps on humiliating the UK more and more with every passing day.

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235550

Postby scrumpyjack » July 10th, 2019, 2:21 pm

Whether Boris should have told off Trump for saying the same sort of things about the British Ambassador as the Ambassador had already said about Trump is a moot point.

Our relationship with the US is more important than Trump or Boris or the Ambassador.

Sir Kim was right to say that his position was impossible as a result of his comments being leaked so whatever Boris said or failed to say about Trump isn’t relevant. He could have got on his high horse as Jeremy Hunt did, but he choose the diplomatic line of just saying how important our relationship with US is. Personally I think Boris was sensible to answer as he did and not dig us into a deeper hole.

As for being poodles of the US, that has been the case since WW2 or perhaps WW1. We are a small island off mainland Europe with less than 1% of the world's population. Our pretensions of being a major world power on our own are a very expensive vanity.

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235556

Postby BobbyD » July 10th, 2019, 2:56 pm

XFool wrote:If it did, the final irony: Brexit = The demise of Britain's sovereignty


That has always been the case, the UK simply isn't big enough to exert more influence on it's own than it does as a card carrying, veto packing member of the EU. The lone antelope going hither and thither across the Serengeti wherever it damn well pleases is known not as the 'Sovereign antelope' to its fellow plains dwellers, but as lunch.

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Re: Well Said Mrs May

#235558

Postby XFool » July 10th, 2019, 2:58 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:Whether Boris should have told off Trump for saying the same sort of things about the British Ambassador as the Ambassador had already said about Trump is a moot point.

Our relationship with the US is more important than Trump or Boris or the Ambassador.

It is "important" but the question rapidly arising is: "Is it any longer in our interest?"

scrumpyjack wrote:Sir Kim was right to say that his position was impossible as a result of his comments being leaked so whatever Boris said or failed to say about Trump isn’t relevant.

That's not what is being reported.

scrumpyjack wrote:He could have got on his high horse as Jeremy Hunt did, but he choose the diplomatic line of just saying how important our relationship with US is. Personally I think Boris was sensible to answer as he did and not dig us into a deeper hole.

As long as he hasn't dug us, and won't be digging us, into somebody else's hole.

scrumpyjack wrote:As for being poodles of the US, that has been the case since WW2 or perhaps WW1. We are a small island off mainland Europe with less than 1% of the world's population. Our pretensions of being a major world power on our own are a very expensive vanity.

Yeah. Hang on... I think I once heard about a possible option on that front...


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