The Lemon Fool

Nevertheless, I offer this for your consideration (along with "electronic" car windows):

This is Money

When DID all electrical devices automatically become "electronic"?

I think I'd let them away with this one. These "hand" brakes have to be electronic, to judge if you've gone through the correct series of moves before it decides to apply or release the mechanical bit.

For example, mine will only release if: the ignition key is on, and either I have my foot on the brake (in which case it will allow me to release it myself) or I have it in gear and press the accelerator pedal (in which case it will release it automatically).

To apply it, the car simply has to be stationary. It will work whether or not the ignition key is on.

Scott.

swill453 wrote:I think I'd let them away with this one. These "hand" brakes have to be electronic, to judge if you've gone through the correct series of moves before it decides to apply or release the mechanical bit.

So? The ultimate motive force is electric. If I am in a car with wind up windows I wouldn't describe them as 'brain' or 'nerve' operated'!

XFool wrote:

swill453 wrote:I think I'd let them away with this one. These "hand" brakes have to be electronic, to judge if you've gone through the correct series of moves before it decides to apply or release the mechanical bit.

So? The ultimate motive force is electric. If I am in a car with wind up windows I wouldn't describe them as 'brain' or 'nerve' operated'!

I didn't mention windows, and have never to my recollection heard them described as electronic. Though I can imagine some would, and some of them might be correct.

Regarding the ultimate motive force being electric, I respond in kind. So?

Scott.

XFool wrote:When DID all electrical devices automatically become "electronic"?

Well personally I have always destinguished electronic as having some electronics (ie integrated circuits, op-amps, transistors etc) involved. While electrical devices I regard as dumber (switches, relays, motors).

Hence a parking break that also aids in hill starts would to me likely be electronic.

From your link:

Most electronic handbrakes disengage automatically when you pull away plus they often offer an automatic hill-hold assist function

XFool wrote:When DID all electrical devices automatically become "electronic"?

"All" didn't but for those that did it's when they started containing "active" components, like valves, transistors, integrated circuits, etc, rather than just "passive" ones like resistors, capacitors, transformers, motors, etc ,etc.

Electrical devices use electricity simply for and as power whereas electronic devices manipulate electricity as an information medium (often to control electrical devices).

And when did condensers become capacitors and why?
(just showing off my age)

mc2fool wrote:

XFool wrote:When DID all electrical devices automatically become "electronic"?

"All" didn't but for those that did it's when they started containing "active" components, like valves, transistors, integrated circuits, etc, rather than just "passive" ones like resistors, capacitors, transformers, motors, etc ,etc.

Electrical devices use electricity simply for and as power whereas electronic devices manipulate electricity as an information medium (often to control electrical devices).

I just disagree - or else pretty well EVERYTHING is currently "electronic".

Obviously (to, in effect, answer my own question) it is the increasing penetration of electronics into everyday devices that has caused the (err...) change in terminology. However - I still think it is mistaken or just plain WRONG.

The purpose of a kettle is to hold water as it is heated. An 'electric kettle' heats the water using an electric heater - however much electronics it may use for "control".

Think how much electronics is used in the contemporary ICE motor car. Should we therefore call them "electronic cars"?

To coin a phrase: "I DON'T THINK SO!"

We didn't call them "electric cars" when they had: electric lighting, electric indicators, electric starters, electric fuel pumps, electrical instruments, radios, cigar lighters(!).

QED

mc2fool wrote:

XFool wrote:When DID all electrical devices automatically become "electronic"?

"All" didn't but for those that did it's when they started containing "active" components, like valves, transistors, integrated circuits, etc, rather than just "passive" ones like resistors, capacitors, transformers, motors, etc ,etc.

Electrical devices use electricity simply for and as power whereas electronic devices manipulate electricity as an information medium (often to control electrical devices).

Nope!

e.g. The first 'computers' used electrical relays. Electromechanical, NOT 'electronic'.

And Babbage's machines would have been steam powered!

scotia wrote:And when did condensers become capacitors and why?
(just showing off my age)

Well, at least you didn't call then Leyden Jars...

If I remember, "capacitor" was American for "condenser" (don't know why - cellphone vs mobile?) so the change likely came about gradually. But that's all I know.

Now "Hertz" instead of "cycles per second", I can remember when that officially came in. I was at school.

XFool wrote:Nope!

e.g. The first 'computers' used electrical relays. Electromechanical, NOT 'electronic'.

Correct. Relays are considered "passive" components, not "active" ones.

XFool wrote:And Babbage's machines would have been steam powered!

Babbage's machines were mechanical and so are totally irrelevant to the electrical vs electronic question.

I rather suspect your OP question is to fulminate rather than to seek information, so I'll leave you to argue with https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=electrical+vs+electronic

mc2fool wrote:Relays are considered "passive" components, not "active" ones.

That's a good example of the use of the passive voice rather than the active voice to omit an important bit of information...

Gengulphus

XFool wrote:If I remember, "capacitor" was American for "condenser"

The Americanism I really objected to was flip-flop. A monostable circuit is a flip-flop since you flip it into the opposite state, and it flops back into its original state. A bistable circuit is one in which you to flip it into the opposite state, and you need to flip it to get it back to its original state - i.e. it is a flip-flip. Yet the Americans started using the name flip-flop for a bistable, and my repeated attempts to get it renamed a flip-flip has fallen on deaf ears. Do I have support for a petition to parliament?

If I remember, "capacitor" was American for "condenser"

Although since we have always referred to the capacity of a capacitor (or condenser) as “capacitance” it doesn’t seem unreasonable.

I don’t like the little box symbols for resistors though, the zigzag seeming more intuitive.

madhatter wrote:I don’t like the little box symbols for resistors though, the zigzag seeming more intuitive.

Agreed! And when drawing them on a board with chalk, the zigzag was much faster.

scotia wrote:Do I have support for a petition to parliament?

That question puts the cart before the horse: the petition tells you whether you've got the support... But fortunately you don't need any support to start a petition - you just have to go to https://petition.parliament.uk/.

I shall watch future developments with interest! ;-)

Gengulphus

'Smart' parking brakes, windows etc?

Stonge wrote:'Smart' parking brakes, windows etc?

Now that's REALLY annoying...

mc2fool wrote:

XFool wrote:Nope!

e.g. The first 'computers' used electrical relays. Electromechanical, NOT 'electronic'.

Correct. Relays are considered "passive" components, not "active" ones.

Nonsense!

"passive" components are components with, in effect, no transfer function. They simply 'react' in situ to electric current or changes in same:

Wikipedia

How on EARTH can an "electrical relay" (or "electric motor") be a "passive" component? Answer: It can't (Obviously!)

A relay is the electromechanical analogue of any kind of electronic switch: a valve, transistor, thyristor...

mc2fool wrote:

XFool wrote:And Babbage's machines would have been steam powered!

Babbage's machines were mechanical and so are totally irrelevant to the electrical vs electronic question.

Note to self: 'Never underestimate how unsubtle you need to be when posting on a BB...'

mc2fool wrote:I rather suspect your OP question is to fulminate rather than to seek information...

Golly!

I bet that's never happened before on Pedants' Place (I was really careful with that apostrophe!)

I'll get me coat...