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It's far too late now...

Mind that apostrophe.
XFool
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It's far too late now...

#167962

Postby XFool » September 21st, 2018, 4:06 pm

Nevertheless, I offer this for your consideration (along with "electronic" car windows):

This is Money

When DID all electrical devices automatically become "electronic"?

swill453
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Re: It's far too late now...

#167965

Postby swill453 » September 21st, 2018, 4:13 pm

I think I'd let them away with this one. These "hand" brakes have to be electronic, to judge if you've gone through the correct series of moves before it decides to apply or release the mechanical bit.

For example, mine will only release if: the ignition key is on, and either I have my foot on the brake (in which case it will allow me to release it myself) or I have it in gear and press the accelerator pedal (in which case it will release it automatically).

To apply it, the car simply has to be stationary. It will work whether or not the ignition key is on.

Scott.

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Re: It's far too late now...

#167969

Postby XFool » September 21st, 2018, 4:24 pm

swill453 wrote:I think I'd let them away with this one. These "hand" brakes have to be electronic, to judge if you've gone through the correct series of moves before it decides to apply or release the mechanical bit.

So? The ultimate motive force is electric. If I am in a car with wind up windows I wouldn't describe them as 'brain' or 'nerve' operated'!

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Re: It's far too late now...

#167971

Postby swill453 » September 21st, 2018, 4:33 pm

XFool wrote:
swill453 wrote:I think I'd let them away with this one. These "hand" brakes have to be electronic, to judge if you've gone through the correct series of moves before it decides to apply or release the mechanical bit.

So? The ultimate motive force is electric. If I am in a car with wind up windows I wouldn't describe them as 'brain' or 'nerve' operated'!

I didn't mention windows, and have never to my recollection heard them described as electronic. Though I can imagine some would, and some of them might be correct.

Regarding the ultimate motive force being electric, I respond in kind. So?

Scott.

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Re: It's far too late now...

#167973

Postby Urbandreamer » September 21st, 2018, 4:38 pm

XFool wrote:When DID all electrical devices automatically become "electronic"?


Well personally I have always destinguished electronic as having some electronics (ie integrated circuits, op-amps, transistors etc) involved. While electrical devices I regard as dumber (switches, relays, motors).

Hence a parking break that also aids in hill starts would to me likely be electronic.

From your link:

Most electronic handbrakes disengage automatically when you pull away plus they often offer an automatic hill-hold assist function

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Re: It's far too late now...

#167981

Postby mc2fool » September 21st, 2018, 5:02 pm

XFool wrote:When DID all electrical devices automatically become "electronic"?

"All" didn't but for those that did it's when they started containing "active" components, like valves, transistors, integrated circuits, etc, rather than just "passive" ones like resistors, capacitors, transformers, motors, etc ,etc.

Electrical devices use electricity simply for and as power whereas electronic devices manipulate electricity as an information medium (often to control electrical devices).

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Re: It's far too late now...

#168014

Postby scotia » September 21st, 2018, 7:26 pm

And when did condensers become capacitors and why?
(just showing off my age)

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Re: It's far too late now...

#168015

Postby XFool » September 21st, 2018, 7:28 pm

mc2fool wrote:
XFool wrote:When DID all electrical devices automatically become "electronic"?

"All" didn't but for those that did it's when they started containing "active" components, like valves, transistors, integrated circuits, etc, rather than just "passive" ones like resistors, capacitors, transformers, motors, etc ,etc.

Electrical devices use electricity simply for and as power whereas electronic devices manipulate electricity as an information medium (often to control electrical devices).

I just disagree - or else pretty well EVERYTHING is currently "electronic".

Obviously (to, in effect, answer my own question) it is the increasing penetration of electronics into everyday devices that has caused the (err...) change in terminology. However - I still think it is mistaken or just plain WRONG.

The purpose of a kettle is to hold water as it is heated. An 'electric kettle' heats the water using an electric heater - however much electronics it may use for "control".

Think how much electronics is used in the contemporary ICE motor car. Should we therefore call them "electronic cars"?

To coin a phrase: "I DON'T THINK SO!"

We didn't call them "electric cars" when they had: electric lighting, electric indicators, electric starters, electric fuel pumps, electrical instruments, radios, cigar lighters(!).

QED ;)

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Re: It's far too late now...

#168017

Postby XFool » September 21st, 2018, 7:38 pm

mc2fool wrote:
XFool wrote:When DID all electrical devices automatically become "electronic"?

"All" didn't but for those that did it's when they started containing "active" components, like valves, transistors, integrated circuits, etc, rather than just "passive" ones like resistors, capacitors, transformers, motors, etc ,etc.

Electrical devices use electricity simply for and as power whereas electronic devices manipulate electricity as an information medium (often to control electrical devices).

Nope! ;)

e.g. The first 'computers' used electrical relays. Electromechanical, NOT 'electronic'.

And Babbage's machines would have been steam powered!
Last edited by XFool on September 21st, 2018, 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: It's far too late now...

#168018

Postby XFool » September 21st, 2018, 7:41 pm

scotia wrote:And when did condensers become capacitors and why?
(just showing off my age)

Well, at least you didn't call then Leyden Jars...

If I remember, "capacitor" was American for "condenser" (don't know why - cellphone vs mobile?) so the change likely came about gradually. But that's all I know.

Now "Hertz" instead of "cycles per second", I can remember when that officially came in. I was at school.

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Re: It's far too late now...

#168027

Postby mc2fool » September 21st, 2018, 8:17 pm

XFool wrote:Nope! ;)

e.g. The first 'computers' used electrical relays. Electromechanical, NOT 'electronic'.

Correct. Relays are considered "passive" components, not "active" ones.

XFool wrote:And Babbage's machines would have been steam powered!

Babbage's machines were mechanical and so are totally irrelevant to the electrical vs electronic question.

I rather suspect your OP question is to fulminate rather than to seek information, so I'll leave you to argue with https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=electrical+vs+electronic

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Re: It's far too late now...

#168033

Postby Gengulphus » September 21st, 2018, 8:50 pm

mc2fool wrote:Relays are considered "passive" components, not "active" ones.

That's a good example of the use of the passive voice rather than the active voice to omit an important bit of information...

Gengulphus

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Re: It's far too late now...

#168041

Postby scotia » September 21st, 2018, 9:10 pm

XFool wrote:If I remember, "capacitor" was American for "condenser"

The Americanism I really objected to was flip-flop. A monostable circuit is a flip-flop since you flip it into the opposite state, and it flops back into its original state. A bistable circuit is one in which you to flip it into the opposite state, and you need to flip it to get it back to its original state - i.e. it is a flip-flip. Yet the Americans started using the name flip-flop for a bistable, and my repeated attempts to get it renamed a flip-flip has fallen on deaf ears. Do I have support for a petition to parliament?

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Re: It's far too late now...

#168049

Postby madhatter » September 21st, 2018, 9:53 pm

If I remember, "capacitor" was American for "condenser"


Although since we have always referred to the capacity of a capacitor (or condenser) as “capacitance” it doesn’t seem unreasonable.

I don’t like the little box symbols for resistors though, the zigzag seeming more intuitive.

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Re: It's far too late now...

#168051

Postby scotia » September 21st, 2018, 10:22 pm

madhatter wrote:I don’t like the little box symbols for resistors though, the zigzag seeming more intuitive.

Agreed! And when drawing them on a board with chalk, the zigzag was much faster.

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Re: It's far too late now...

#168074

Postby Gengulphus » September 22nd, 2018, 7:26 am

scotia wrote:Do I have support for a petition to parliament?

That question puts the cart before the horse: the petition tells you whether you've got the support... But fortunately you don't need any support to start a petition - you just have to go to https://petition.parliament.uk/.

I shall watch future developments with interest! ;-)

Gengulphus

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Re: It's far too late now...

#168077

Postby Stonge » September 22nd, 2018, 8:22 am

'Smart' parking brakes, windows etc?

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Re: It's far too late now...

#168157

Postby XFool » September 22nd, 2018, 2:20 pm

Stonge wrote:'Smart' parking brakes, windows etc?

Now that's REALLY annoying...

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Re: It's far too late now...

#168160

Postby XFool » September 22nd, 2018, 2:37 pm

mc2fool wrote:
XFool wrote:Nope! ;)

e.g. The first 'computers' used electrical relays. Electromechanical, NOT 'electronic'.

Correct. Relays are considered "passive" components, not "active" ones.

Nonsense!

"passive" components are components with, in effect, no transfer function. They simply 'react' in situ to electric current or changes in same:

Wikipedia

How on EARTH can an "electrical relay" (or "electric motor") be a "passive" component? Answer: It can't (Obviously!)

A relay is the electromechanical analogue of any kind of electronic switch: a valve, transistor, thyristor...

mc2fool wrote:
XFool wrote:And Babbage's machines would have been steam powered!

Babbage's machines were mechanical and so are totally irrelevant to the electrical vs electronic question.

Note to self: 'Never underestimate how unsubtle you need to be when posting on a BB...'
Last edited by XFool on September 22nd, 2018, 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: It's far too late now...

#168162

Postby XFool » September 22nd, 2018, 2:46 pm

mc2fool wrote:I rather suspect your OP question is to fulminate rather than to seek information...

Golly!

I bet that's never happened before on Pedants' Place (I was really careful with that apostrophe!)

I'll get me coat...


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