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Using - in punctuation.

Mind that apostrophe.
DiamondEcho
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Using - in punctuation.

#43022

Postby DiamondEcho » April 2nd, 2017, 10:35 am

Moderator Message:
Moved from DAK to Pedants' Place (chas49)


Perhaps it's just me but I sense a rise in using a hyphen in punctuation. Here are just two of several from today's Telegraph.
My English language education was poor, in fact I don't recall being taught grammar at all. So I am not in a position to judge whether using hyphens in this way is correct.
Any cunning linguists out there?

'This may give our politicians time to work out which [EU laws] are no longer needed, and certainly back in the Nineties I was almost weekly reporting on just how daft many of those EU directives were — particularly in the absurdly damaging way they were applied by our own civil servants.'
Christopher Booker

'Eurocrats are ashamed of their history – so they cannot forgive Britain for being proud of its own'
Janet Daley

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Re: Using - in punctuation.

#43026

Postby TedSwippet » April 2nd, 2017, 10:53 am

http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/em-dash.html

Over the years I've found myself using this form more and more. So much so that I fear it may have now become a habitual affectation -- one that I'm finding difficult to break.

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Re: Using - in punctuation.

#43028

Postby redsturgeon » April 2nd, 2017, 11:00 am

TedSwippet wrote:http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/em-dash.html

Over the years I've found myself using this form more and more. So much so that I fear it may have now become a habitual affectation -- one that I'm finding difficult to break.


Me too but unfortunately most keyboards only seem to have a hyphen which is shorter than the dash - I didn't realise there were two types of dash - so thanks for the link.



John

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Re: Using - in punctuation.

#43042

Postby TedSwippet » April 2nd, 2017, 11:42 am

redsturgeon wrote:Me too but unfortunately most keyboards only seem to have a hyphen which is shorter than the dash - I didn't realise there were two types of dash - so thanks for the link.

A double-hyphen with no spaces between can stand in for an em-dash -- in fact many text handling systems will translate that for you. Clearly though, this one does not!

Alternatively you should be able to get the character directly by entering its Unicode by whatever means your OS or computer allows — its Unicode value is 2014.

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Re: Using - in punctuation.

#43043

Postby redsturgeon » April 2nd, 2017, 11:43 am

TedSwippet wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:Me too but unfortunately most keyboards only seem to have a hyphen which is shorter than the dash - I didn't realise there were two types of dash - so thanks for the link.

A double-hyphen with no spaces between can stand in for an em-dash -- in fact many text handling systems will translate that for you. Clearly though, this one does not!

Alternatively you should be able to get the character directly by entering its Unicode by whatever means your OS or computer allows — its Unicode value is 2014.


Thanks - very helpful.

John

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Re: Using - in punctuation.

#43045

Postby TedSwippet » April 2nd, 2017, 11:47 am

redsturgeon wrote:Thanks - very helpful.

You're — welcome.

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Re: Using - in punctuation.

#43047

Postby redsturgeon » April 2nd, 2017, 11:54 am

:D

John

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Re: Using - in punctuation.

#43070

Postby DiamondEcho » April 2nd, 2017, 12:56 pm

Thanks for the link, showing the various uses of -, -- and so on. Most interesting - though no surprise - that I'd never heard of an em-dash before. I see it can be used in place of a colon. Looking at the original quotes it would seem that they're used where I might have expected to see a semi-colon. But as said, IDK. Come to think of it has the use of the colon and semi-colon died out in recent years; I can't recall the last time I saw either used in a newspaper article?

p.s. and before anyone suggests an - is not an em-dash, yes I now know. It's just I can't get my non-UK keyboard to create the symbol from the Alt code.

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Re: Using - in punctuation.

#43081

Postby TedSwippet » April 2nd, 2017, 1:22 pm

DiamondEcho wrote:Come to think of it has the use of the colon and semi-colon died out in recent years; I can't recall the last time I saw either used in a newspaper article?

I wonder if they are gradually being supplanted by the more general-purpose em-dash?

This line of thinking led me to the Plain English Campaign web site. Here I noted on that page no fewer than 15 uses of a dash where a comma, colon, semicolon, or parentheses would probably have done. Also, they themselves consistently used a hyphen rather than the more correct em-dash. Their page on punctuating sentences doesn't mention dashes at all!

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Re: Using - in punctuation.

#43142

Postby Lootman » April 2nd, 2017, 6:48 pm

TedSwippet wrote:
DiamondEcho wrote:Come to think of it has the use of the colon and semi-colon died out in recent years; I can't recall the last time I saw either used in a newspaper article?

This line of thinking led me to the Plain English Campaign web site. Here I noted on that page no fewer than 15 uses of a dash where a comma, colon, semicolon, or parentheses would probably have done. Also, they themselves consistently used a hyphen rather than the more correct em-dash.

It's part of a natural trend to simplify language and, in particular, punctuation. Do we really need half a dozen different ways to inject some kind of pause into a string of phrases or thoughts? They may each individually be "more correct" but I just don't think that is something that is valued these days. Indeed, too much focus on that may lead to accusations of pedantry or pettiness.

So I pretty much use a hyphen to indicate anywhere that, if speaking, I might pause. I'll use a colon to precede a list. And really don't have much use for the other secondary punctuation types (exclamation and question marks aside). Full stops, commas and hyphens get me done.

I actually personally know one of the founders of the Plain English Campaign. As it happens I often argue with him about some of their stuff, but I think they're pretty much correct here. Language isn't a fixed thing - it evolves according to how people want it to. And if the trend is towards less complexity and a more intuitive and colloquial approach, then so be it.

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Re: Using - in punctuation.

#43146

Postby TedSwippet » April 2nd, 2017, 6:57 pm

Lootman wrote:I actually personally know one of the founders of the Plain English Campaign. As it happens I often argue with him about some of their stuff, but I think they're pretty much correct here. Language isn't a fixed thing - it evolves according to how people want it to. And if the trend is towards less complexity and a more intuitive and colloquial approach, then so be it.

Indeed. I wasn't disagreeing with Plain English in any way -- I applaud their work. Just pointing out that their page on Plain English used a lot of dash punctuation while their page on Punctuation didn't mention it at all!

Since you know a founder, perhaps you could suggest gently that they might remedy this odd state of affairs... :-)

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Re: Using - in punctuation.

#43166

Postby Clitheroekid » April 2nd, 2017, 8:38 pm

DiamondEcho wrote:I'd never heard of an em-dash before.

Neither had I. But I've certainly noticed an increasing use of dashes in my writing - and a concomitant (nice word!) decrease in my use of colons and semicolons.

However, I don't consider that the distinction between an em dash and an en dash is known to more than about one in a million people, and as far as I'm concerned it can stay like that. I certainly have no intention of using both. The whole object of using a dash is to simplify language, and having to recall when to use an em dash as against an en dash rather misses the point.

It would also confuse the average reader to see a double dash suddenly popping up everywhere.

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Re: Using - in punctuation.

#43244

Postby csearle » April 3rd, 2017, 11:13 am

Clitheroekid wrote:...and a concomitant (nice word!) decrease...
Yes, one I had to look up, which just goes to show that the enrichment part of TMF's ethos is alive and well on TLF.

Chris

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Re: Using - in punctuation.

#43252

Postby DiamondEcho » April 3rd, 2017, 11:33 am

Some interesting points above. They make me realise that using parentheses (aka brackets) is another thing that seems to have recently died out. Perhaps anything that can't be typed/tapped out with one finger [ie no 2nd finger on a shift key, or accessed via a symbols sub-menu], is bound for the history books.

-OT- Perhaps some will remember the 1979 Buggles hit 'Video killed the radio star'. I wonder if the move away from hard-copy books, newspapers, hand-written letters etc, to e-readers, smart-phones, tablets etc will kill off a section of language punctuation.

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Re: Using - in punctuation.

#43259

Postby chas49 » April 3rd, 2017, 11:55 am

Moderator Message:
Moved topic from DAK to Pedants' Place (chas49)

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Re: Using - in punctuation.

#43289

Postby bungeejumper » April 3rd, 2017, 2:03 pm

I work professionally with other people's writing, and it's becoming clear that even many educated people have no real idea any more of the distinction between a colon and semi-colon. I think Lynne Truss's Eats, Shoots and Leaves gets it about right when she says that it's down to technology. Texting and emailing on a handheld device are making people feel unsure about the distinction - not least, because they both look just the same on a mobile phone screen! A long dash can bridge the gap.

And Truss agrees, a little grudgingly, that there's nothing particularly terrible about that, because language needs to change along with our needs, just as long as we remain intelligible to each other when we express ourselves in writing. And that, although it's best to stick to the standard written usage if you don't know your reader, new stuff like @ signs, bullet points (possibly the best grammatical innovation of the last half century?) and now hashtags are all perfectly logical in their way. So she's not quite as zero-tolerance as she sometimes makes out. ;)

WRT colons and semi-colons, I like to think that they're like the Stop sign and the Give Way sign at a road intersection. The first says, "whoa, there's something important about to happen, probably a whole new main clause, so pause and take a breath before you advance." Whereas the second says pretty much, "no real need for a full pause here, but be aware that you're joining a new section of road." A long dash can cover both eventualities.

BJ


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