The Lemon Fool

Or more specifically the empty packets.

I read that protesters are posting their empty crisp packets back to Walkers as they are not recyclable.

Would it be easier not to buy them in the first place?

John

Shouldn't this be over at Bitter Lemons?

vrdiver wrote:Shouldn't this be over at Bitter Lemons?

Possibly...I'll move it.

John

redsturgeon wrote:Or more specifically the empty packets.

I read that protesters are posting their empty crisp packets back to Walkers as they are not recyclable.

Would it be easier not to buy them in the first place?

Easier maybe, but that wouldn't give the issue as much exposure. Like on financial message boards, for instance.

Scott.

Damn, you mean I have been duped...

John

To answer the question slightly more seriously, I assume the idea is to get Walkers to change the packaging. A few hundred (?) individuals boycotting them is not even going to show up as a rounding error in sales, whereas the opportunity to make a short youtube video* emptying a sack of post at Walkers HQ, full of non-recyclable Walkers branded waste, would be a PR embarrassment par excellence...

Getting the issue into the public domain, associating the issue with the specific brand (I'd guess they are not the only culprits) is more likely to make Walkers change, and with that will come competitor "me too" moves. (Not #MeToo, I think that's a different issue!)

VRD


*or similar PR stunt.

vrdiver wrote:To answer the question slightly more seriously, I assume the idea is to get Walkers to change the packaging. A few hundred (?) individuals boycotting them is not even going to show up as a rounding error in sales, whereas the opportunity to make a short youtube video* emptying a sack of post at Walkers HQ, full of non-recyclable Walkers branded waste, would be a PR embarrassment par excellence...

Getting the issue into the public domain, associating the issue with the specific brand (I'd guess they are not the only culprits) is more likely to make Walkers change, and with that will come competitor "me too" moves. (Not #MeToo, I think that's a different issue!)

I wouldn't call that "more seriously". More like the same thing, but with more words.

Scott.

vrdiver wrote:Getting the issue into the public domain, associating the issue with the specific brand

I think I saw some some "news" of a lass that made her graduation dress out of empty Walkers packets, to make the same point about unrecyclable packets.

I've still not really forgiven them for putting salt and vinegar and cheese and onion in the wrong colour packets.

UncleIan wrote:I've still not really forgiven them for putting salt and vinegar and cheese and onion in the wrong colour packets.

And more or less admitting they were wrong by not changing the colours of the Squares packets when they took them over from Smiths.

Scott.

vrdiver wrote:To answer the question slightly more seriously, I assume the idea is to get Walkers to change the packaging.

I for one hope Walker's stand firm on this. It perhaps doesn't matter so much with crisp packets but I really don't like recyclable bags as they degrade much more quickly. Plastic bags get used for a lot more things than merely taking home a few shopping items. People use them as bags for carrying around stuff, particularly men who don't have handbags. They are also useful for keeping things airtight. I have plastic bags from 40 years ago that are still doing their job.

But those groovy earth-friendly bags degrade in a few months. Unless of course you store them inside a real plastic bag

Lootman wrote:I for one hope Walker's stand firm on this.

They're not standing firm at all. They're committed to having 100% recyclable packaging by 2025, but that's not fast enough for the protesters.

Scott.

Lootman wrote:I for one hope Walker's stand firm on this. It perhaps doesn't matter so much with crisp packets but I really don't like recyclable bags as they degrade much more quickly.

I'm with you on having a bag that's fit for purpose. It's the single use plastics that seem to be a problem. When the supermarkets were made to charge 5p per carrier bag, consumption dropped by about 85% (IIRC). We used to use them as bin liners; these days charity bags fulfill the role.

Crisp bags, provided they do their job of getting the crisps from the factory to the consumer, have no further use (that I can think of) and it would be good if their final disposition wasn't to end up in landfill or worse. Assuming Walkers introduce a biodegradable bag, I assume it will last at least as long as the BB date on the packet!

VRD

vrdiver wrote:Assuming Walkers introduce a biodegradable bag, I assume it will last at least as long as the BB date on the packet!

Ah, you got me there as I had assumed that "recyclable" was the same as "biodegradable". Perhaps it was the latter that, in my experience and not totally surprisingly, degrades

So are there three types of plastic?

1) The nasty type that lasts for a billion years and kills dolphins and condemns us all to fry in a hell of our own making
2) The recyclable type that you can't compost but can reprocess in some way
3) The "green and groovy" type you can throw on your compost heap and is otherwise pretty useless after initial use

Lootman wrote:So are there three types of plastic?

1) The nasty type that lasts for a billion years and kills dolphins and condemns us all to fry in a hell of our own making
2) The recyclable type that you can't compost but can reprocess in some way
3) The "green and groovy" type you can throw on your compost heap and is otherwise pretty useless after initial use

There's loads of different types of plastic.

Also the same plastics treated different ways causes different outcomes, so the hard plastic that yogurt pots are made of can be recycled, but when that same plastic is coloured black, the recycling machines can't spot it and identify it so it doesn't get recycled. I'm not sure if it was a regurgitated press release but I was reading something yesterday about experiments being done to replace black plant pots that most plants come in. If it works, expect to see the local garden centres full of taupe coloured pots instead. I kid you not.

Lootman wrote:

vrdiver wrote:To answer the question slightly more seriously, I assume the idea is to get Walkers to change the packaging.

I for one hope Walker's stand firm on this. It perhaps doesn't matter so much with crisp packets but I really don't like recyclable bags as they degrade much more quickly. Plastic bags get used for a lot more things than merely taking home a few shopping items. People use them as bags for carrying around stuff, particularly men who don't have handbags. They are also useful for keeping things airtight. I have plastic bags from 40 years ago that are still doing their job.

But those groovy earth-friendly bags degrade in a few months. Unless of course you store them inside a real plastic bag

Up to a point, Lord Copper. I had a rather unpleasant experience of degradable plastic bags that degraded and left a nasty mess in the back of my spare bags store. Until then I had no idea any of them would degrade on me. But one has to balance that against damage done: on balance both kinds of plastic bag are bad.

As for crisps, how on Earth do you ever find those packets useful? I'd be protesting the noise the vile things make in theatres and concert halls if I thought it would have any effect.

UncleIan wrote: but when that same plastic is coloured black, the recycling machines can't spot it and identify it so it doesn't get recycled.

I can't help thinking, mightn't it be easier and cheaper for the system over all if the recycling machines were fixed, rather than the whole production re-tooled? The latter should be happening in the context of improving supply chains overall, rather than some narrow/artificial focus on accommodating defective recycling systems.

UncleEbenezer wrote:I can't help thinking, mightn't it be easier and cheaper for the system over all if the recycling machines were fixed, rather than the whole production re-tooled? The latter should be happening in the context of improving supply chains overall, rather than some narrow/artificial focus on accommodating defective recycling systems.

I think there's also something about it containing carbon black or something that means even if you could spot it in the recycling machines it can't be recycled except to make more black plastic. I.e. when it's taupe, say, you can colour it something else, but the black is impossible to remove. That's how I read it anyway. And being able to recycle pots is a big issue in the horticultural industry apparently. I mean, we've got 100s over the years without even trying, and we only reuse the small ones for seedlings, and a few of the bigger ones for plant swaps and the like. More than we can easily use for sure.

UncleEbenezer wrote:I can't help thinking, mightn't it be easier and cheaper for the system over all if the recycling machines were fixed, rather than the whole production re-tooled? The latter should be happening in the context of improving supply chains overall, rather than some narrow/artificial focus on accommodating defective recycling systems.

Agreed in principle, but recycling has quite a few constraints that need to be managed. If I wanted an efficient, profitable recycling supply chain, "I wouldn't start from here" springs to mind.

If we had a range of recyclable plastics and could eliminate or dramatically reduce the ones that weren't, and if packaging buyers and designers could conduct themselves accordingly, the system could be very efficient; currently we have Sales and Marketing driven usage, which only cares about public perception of their brands, balancing the eco perceptions against the desirability that alternative packaging might offer. The cost of any packaging changes is also an impediment to change if it's neither required nor justified by S&M.

Personally, I'd like to see much more aggressive legislation to drive us away from non-recyclable plastics. The current system is a messy mishmash that is expensive and inefficient.

VRD

vrdiver wrote:Personally, I'd like to see much more aggressive legislation to drive us away from non-recyclable plastics. The current system is a messy mishmash that is expensive and inefficient.

Over the last fifty years, plastic packaging has replaced glass and paper or in some cases no packaging. Presumably it was, or appeared cheaper, but perhaps there are food safety and food waste issues as well.

Didn't crisp packets use to be paper, reinforced perhaps like "greaseproof" paper?

Alaric wrote:Over the last fifty years, plastic packaging has replaced glass and paper or in some cases no packaging. Presumably it was, or appeared cheaper, but perhaps there are food safety and food waste issues as well.

Didn't crisp packets use to be paper, reinforced perhaps like "greaseproof" paper?

Cheaper, more robust, brighter, more eye-catching, increasing shelf life (sealed packaging, including for crisps, that allow for nitrogen atmosphere and the elimination of regular air, thus further increasing shelf life) reducing freight costs (weight reduction) etc. etc. Plastics have been a real benefit to our lifestyles; it's just that the full lifecycle of the stuff wasn't embedded into the consumer process, so we've reached the point now of having plastics accumulating in landfill, the sea and in pretty much all food chains (not as packaging, but ingested) which problems are now reaching a public consciousness that "something must be done".
The "something", I opine needs to be at a government level. Corporate capitalism simply isn't geared up for it, whilst international cooperation is too slow and cumbersome. Only at National (or devolved Regional) level do we have the legislative clout and consumer critical mass to start something that might actually be effective.

Your latter point, re safety and waste is a good one. Pre-packaged food limits the buyer to specific quantities. If they want a different amount, then either they waste the excess or risk it aging before being finally consumed. Ditto marketing "two for one" etc. deals, where the consumer is persuaded to buy more than they want, which becomes false economy unless it can be used.