Always someone elses fault

[bungeejumper]

The guidance on my bottle of vino is perfectly clear. It says 3 to 4 units per day for men, and 2 to 3 units for women. So does my bottle of Old empire IPA.

Which is, ermmmm, 25-ish units a week. Which is roughly what the World Health Organisation was still promoting as a sensible limit back in the 1980s. I think the labelling complainers might have a point?

In the intervening 35 years the average life expectancy in the UK has improved by maybe five years. Which might, or might not, be associated with a fall in alcohol consumption? Or by better healthcare, or by any number of other things. Harrumph.

BJ (currently doing a dry June, so maybe a bit more short-tempered than usual? Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible)

[UncleEbenezer]

Perhaps someone needs to tell us what "units" are. 'Cos it's an atrocity against the English language making the word "unit" a unit, and it's an offence against information to speak of units but fail to specify the unit of units!

So what is a "unit"? I could infer it's 1cl when I see a 500ml bottle of 4.4% beer labelled as "2.2 units". And the 750ml bottle of 12.5% Pinot Grigio labelled as "9.4 units" is within rounding distance of the same. But the journalists who reoutinely tell us a glass of beer or wine is "about 2 units" imply the "unit" is quite a lot more than that. Who to believe when noone tells us the unit of units?

[swill453]

Perhaps someone needs to tell us what "units" are. 'Cos it's an atrocity against the English language making the word "unit" a unit, and it's an offence against information to speak of units but fail to specify the unit of units!

So what is a "unit"? I could infer it's 1cl when I see a 500ml bottle of 4.4% beer labelled as "2.2 units". And the 750ml bottle of 12.5% Pinot Grigio labelled as "9.4 units" is within rounding distance of the same. But the journalists who reoutinely tell us a glass of beer or wine is "about 2 units" imply the "unit" is quite a lot more than that. Who to believe when noone tells us the unit of units?

It's the first entry under "Facts" on the Drinkaware web site. https://www.drinkaware.co.uk/alcohol-fa ... ohol-unit/

The "fact" that journalists can't be bothered to make themselves aware is unsurprising of course.

Scott.

[scrumpyjack]

As far as I'm aware there has never been any research scientifically arriving at these maximum alcohol figures.

I know it was originally a figure plucked out of the air by some committee with no evidential basis, but is that still the case?

[Laughton]

Oh dear - I tuned into this thread thinking, from the title, that it would be related to Luke Johnson's "it was all the fault of the people I trusted" comment at the weekend.

[AleisterCrowley]

If the science were robust you'd expect most countries to arrive at roughly the same figures - but the variation is massive

[Lootman]

If the science were robust you'd expect most countries to arrive at roughly the same figures - but the variation is massive

Yep, by coincidence I am flying out to Portugal tonight, where the recommended units number is around 35 per week from memory.

Oh, and the legal drinking age there is 16.

[dionaeamuscipula]

As far as I'm aware there has never been any research scientifically arriving at these maximum alcohol figures.

I know it was originally a figure plucked out of the air by some committee with no evidential basis, but is that still the case?

There is plenty of evidence that drinking alcohol is unsafe, for example:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31310-2/fulltext

However, social norms suggest that (as of today) it would be a very unpopular UK government which suggested that we gave up completely.

DM

[scrumpyjack]

I am not disputing in any way that very high levels of alcohol are bad for your health, but there appears to be absolutely no scientific basis for the specific limits determined by doctors. As far as I can see this article does not take this any further either.

[Urbandreamer]

As far as I'm aware there has never been any research scientifically arriving at these maximum alcohol figures.

I know it was originally a figure plucked out of the air by some committee with no evidential basis, but is that still the case?

No, it isn't still the case. However the answers VERY much depend upon what you are trying to ask. In simple terms, if you ask "what is the safe level of alcohol consumption", then you get the same answer that you would get for eating pork pies. There IS no safe level! If you change the question to "What level causes illness or death that can be directly attributed", then you get another significantly bigger number.

The science in this case seems more political than fact based (though there are facts used).

https://life.spectator.co.uk/articles/t ... -evidence/

Reflecting the epidemiological evidence, mortality risk is lower for light drinkers than for teetotallers but it then rises. According to this graph, drinkers’ mortality risk rises to that of a teetotaller at 17.6 units per week for women and 21.2 units per week for men. On this analysis, a guideline of 21 units for men was appropriate and a guideline of 14 units for women was slightly over-cautious.

Please note, that the subject is a LOT more complicated than my selected quote.

[Rhyd6]

When I first started drinking wine the alcohol by volume was circa 9%, but today it's usually 12% upwards. Perhaps it's time to encourage producers to go back to circa 9% so that we can enjoy a bottle of wine without the guilt trip.

R6

[AleisterCrowley]

I don't actually like very strong beers (with a few exceptions) - I have settled at 4% - 4.5% as optimum

[PinkDalek]

I don't actually like very strong beers (with a few exceptions) - I have settled at 4% - 4.5% as optimum

Yes but how many pints is optimal?

[AleisterCrowley]

Too many

[UncleEbenezer]

I don't actually like very strong beers (with a few exceptions) - I have settled at 4% - 4.5% as optimum

Yes but how many pints is optimal?

Clearly just the one. Had the answer been otherwise, the question would've asked how many pints are optimal.

(Agree the best beers are within or near that 4-4.5% range. Except Weizenbier, which is about 5 or 5.5).

[AsleepInYorkshire]

If I may offer up my own thoughts please?

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... eredin2017

Given that the definition of alcohol-specific deaths includes mostly chronic conditions, such as alcoholic liver disease, the increased rates in the older age groups may be a consequence of misuse of alcohol that began years, or even decades, earlier.

An alternative interpretation of what Clare Hutton was talking about may have been in relation to the negative health impact long term use of alcohol has on the organs of the body and in particular the liver.

And I think she was suggesting the alcohol industry should make this kind of information just a little bit more available. And I have to ask ... just what harm could it do?

In 2017, there were 7,697 alcohol-specific deaths in the UK, an age-standardised rate of 12.2 deaths per 100,000 population.

AiY

[bungeejumper]

And I think she was suggesting the alcohol industry should make this kind of information just a little bit more available. And I have to ask ... just what harm could it do?

Depends how they do it, I suppose? If it means having shock pictures of diseased livers printed onto the bottles' labels, they way they did with diseased lungs on the ciggie packets, then some of the magic is going to fade from a romantic candlelit dinner.

Booze is a gift from nature that's widely used as a pleasant shared accompaniment to socialising - whereas cigarettes are just a noxious addiction. Bit of a difference.

BJ

[UncleEbenezer]

Booze is a gift from nature that's widely used as a pleasant shared accompaniment to socialising - whereas cigarettes are just a noxious addiction. Bit of a difference.

BJ

Worth a mention of history there. Healthy enjoyment of booze goes back to antiquity. OK, so does abuse, but we who indulge in moderation can't help that.

[scotia]

Worth a mention of history there. Healthy enjoyment of booze goes back to antiquity. OK, so does abuse, but we who indulge in moderation can't help that.

Didn't the Roman upper classes sweeten their wine by adding lots of lead which some have suggested contributed to the fall of Rome. Not so healthy booze.
I remember our geography teacher giving us an inspired lecture on the (more modern) shady practices of some sectors of the wine industry. The inspiration came from the bottle of wine he downed each day over lunch.

[AsleepInYorkshire]

Depends how they do it, I suppose? If it means having shock pictures of diseased livers printed onto the bottles' labels, they way they did with diseased lungs on the ciggie packets, then some of the magic is going to fade from a romantic candlelit dinner. BJ

I'd not thought into this level of detail and must admit it does dress down the appeal of a glass or two of wine, especially if one imagines looking at the picture of a pickled liver. Next to the pickled onions it would dull my appetite. I think the article was suggesting that many alcohol companies are not actually meeting a self regulating standard to address the changes in "safe alcohol" limits which changed in 2016.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48549561
Health advice on how much adults could safely drink in a week was cut significantly in 2016, from 28 units a week for men and 21 for women, to 14 for both.

But there is no mandatory regulation governing what health information the alcohol industry puts on its products.

Adrian Chiles goes on to say

I still drink, probably a bit too much, and I actually think it's no-one's business but the drinker's how much they put away.
But they do deserve the correct information, and at the moment they're generally not getting it.

I think that probably describes my own thoughts.

We can none of us be perfect. We all do something to excess. Drinking, smoking, eating, watching TV, working, playing computer games, gambling, yada yada yada. In the same way as we see signs warning us to "mind our heads" or "watch the step" or "deep water" we could simply offer up some simple information regarding alcohol such as "The Chief Medical Officer says you shouldn't drink more than 14 units per week and this bottle contains 8.6 Units".

AiY