I'm moving to England

[Lootman]

UK tax revenues from North Sea oil to 2014 are well over $400 billion predominantly from North of the border. It will be several generations, if ever, before Barnett makes a decent dent in that.

Ah, so all that oil belonged to Scotland?

And there was me thinking it was in British territorial waters.

How much do we owe Dorset for Wytch Farm?

[scotia]

To warm us up at the fire you've just lit, UK tax revenues from North Sea oil to 2014 are well over $400 billion predominantly from North of the border.

Take a little time to think this over.
Firstly - how would the North Sea oil reserves have been split up if Scotland and England were two separate countries. Generally speaking, the demarcation line would follow the border, effectively in a South West to North East direction - leaving much of the reserves under English control. However, as a United Kingdom, the UK agreed that management of most of the combined resources should most conveniently be carried out from Scotland. This does not imply "Its Scotland's Oil".
But there is also a much stronger point about sharing resources in a United Kingdom. In my youth, gas was created by retorting coal, and was generally only used for cooking, and in older houses, lighting. Then vast reserves of Natural Gas were discovered in English waters. A natural gas network was quickly established, and most new houses were built with low cost natural gas central heating. I can't remember the SNP pronouncing "Its English Gas" and promising to forego its use.
I am Scottish, I have lived in Scotland all of my life, I have no intention of moving. I repeat that I also have no objection to increased taxation to help others less fortunate than myself, however I strongly condemn the political chicanery involved in the latest tax adjustments. A vastly more complex scheme has been introduced in order to claim that some people will be better off than they would be in England - by a maximum of 38p per week. Can you imagine the increased complexity involved in ensuring that everyone is taxed within the appropriate band? How much money has our Scottish Government put aside to recompense the HMRC for this increased task? And do they intend recompensing small businesses for their extra costs? It will certainly cost them more than 38p per week.

[quelquod]

UK tax revenues from North Sea oil to 2014 are well over $400 billion predominantly from North of the border. It will be several generations, if ever, before Barnett makes a decent dent in that.

Ah, so all that oil belonged to Scotland?

Not at all, and I didn't suggest that, any more than tax revenues south of the border belong to England. It's the UK and to each according to his need.

[Clariman]

...

Scotland has free student tuition, free prescriptions, free eye tests, free personal care for the elderly to help them live independently...
Clariman

It's not free at all, someone has to pay for it. And that someone is the taxpayer south of the border.

Indeed, it is not free. It has to be paid for out of taxation. I am no fan of the SNP but I think they have correctly identified that most people in Scotland would be happy to pay a little more tax to maintain these things, to invest more in the NHS and to maintain other public services which have been cut to the bone.

C

[quelquod]

Indeed, it is not free. It has to be paid for out of taxation. I am no fan of the SNP but I think they have correctly identified that most people in Scotland would be happy to pay a little more tax to maintain these things, to invest more in the NHS and to maintain other public services which have been cut to the bone.

C

And various polls have shown this with sufficient margin to believe it.

I do have difficulty reconciling the need to live within our (UK's) means with the self-evident need to invest much more in NHS and to recognise changing demographics. The SNP have meantime changed horses from independence to align with local opinion while the national government perhaps reflects more the 'I'm all right' attitude further south.

[Dod101]

And various polls have shown this with sufficient margin to believe it.

I do have difficulty reconciling the need to live within our (UK's) means with the self-evident need to invest much more in NHS and to recognise changing demographics. The SNP have meantime changed horses from independence to align with local opinion while the national government perhaps reflects more the 'I'm all right' attitude further south.

As I have said earlier in this thread, throwing more money at the NHS (known apparently as 'investing much more in the NHS') will solve nothing. It simply postpones the day when we will have to face up to the unpalatable truth that it cannot continue as is because we as a nation cannot afford it in its present form.

The SNP has certainly not changed horses. There has never been a more overtly political budget than that of the SNP last week. A Government anyway is supposed to lead and do what is good for the country and last week's budget is unlikely to improve Scotland's economy, making it more than ever relying on spending an even largely proportion of our resources in the public sector.

Dod

[doug2500]

I would also class myself as falling into the 'happy to contribute more for a better country' group but there's a but..........I just don't believe more money is really the answer, or that it will be spent well.

I could also live with paying more tax but think it's a mistake to lower it for some at the same time.

I suppose ultimately I'm just a unionist who would prefer no divergence, no devoloution, does not like the idea of a federal UK etc. I don't want to live in a two tier country whichever side of the line I'm on.

[Lootman]

I would also class myself as falling into the 'happy to contribute more for a better country' group but there's a but..........I just don't believe more money is really the answer, or that it will be spent well.

I would go further and near guarantee that if you give this government (and in fact any government) more money then they will find a way to waste it. And at least the SNP were honest enough here to say that some of this new money will go to increase public sector salaries. Since I think public sector salaries should be reduced, that's a red flag right there.

The reality is that all governments love to spend money, even supposedly low-tax, right-wing governments. The only rational response to that is to deprive them of funds, AKA "starve the beast".

I could also live with paying more tax but think it's a mistake to lower it for some at the same time.

Yes, I think it's an important principle of any tax system that "everyone pays something". Or in the event of a tax increase, everyone pays a little more.

What the SNP is trying to do here is divide and conquer - create a schism between two classes of voters, with the assumption that one class is good (public sector workers, less successful people, welfare recipients) and one class is bad (wealth creators, innovators, business owners). Socialism is all about riling up the less successful against the more successful, AKA class warfare and the politics of envy.

It is beyond frustrating that at a time when the US is introducing a bold new tax-cutting plan, the UK is seemingly reverting to old-school "tax, borrow and spend" mediocrity.

[stewamax]

Turkeys don't usually vote for Xmas.

But Mr Juncker - via his puppeteer Martin Selmayr - would vote for Turkey... (if they could get away with it)
An even better reason to leave the EU - and England to leave Scotland since Ms Sturgeon dotes on the EU so much.

[scotia]

Ms Sturgeon dotes on the EU so much.

Interestingly her call for Independence would have ensured Scotland leaving the European Union - this was made perfectly clear from Brussels, with a statement that Scotland would need to join the queue to enter the EU. Also, there was no hope that Spain would agree to an Independent Scotland joining the EU, since this would further inflame the Catalonian situation.
Now you may think this is puzzling - she was determined on a policy to take Scotland out of the EU, but now seems to think it is a disaster if the UK exits the EU. However there is really no puzzle - all SNP policies are designed to create the maximum amount of resentment against England - and most Scots would like to stay in the EU.

[Dod101]

What your describing is Glasgow and the west of Scotland. There's no midges where I am & the weather is quite good too with low rainfall. It's obviously cooler then the south of England, but that better for working in. The long hours of summer daylight make up for it. Last winter I must have missed about 3 days of bike commuting due to the weather. The worst you suffer is cold hands - but heated gloves sort all that out.

My 74 year old mum broke her leg on Sunday night & there was a paramedic there in 8 minutes after she pushed her red button. A few minutes after that there was an ambulance crew. She's now in hospital 5 miles away and is being well treated by the glorious NHS staff. I've mentioned on the Fool how I popped into the docs on the way home from work one time and 20 minutes later after seeing a doctor (with no appointment) I was standing in the pharmacy picking up my free prescription. Getting a doctors appointment is never a problem though.

Scenery wise, well there's nothing like throwing a flask and a sandwich under the seat and heading off into the wilds on the motorbike. Miles and miles of empty roads. The only worry is finding petrol stations.

Small businesses in Scotland pay no business rates, which has allowed us to expand and employ a university graduate.

As for socialism, well it could be argued that free prescriptions, university education and zero business rates are targeted tax breaks for the middle classes.
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Fack. I can't believe I'm bigging up the Gnats policies! I need to go and lie down.

I am fairly loyal to Scotland but midges are not exactly a problem in Glasgow. They are where I live though in rural Perthshire and our NHS hospital's are not exactly in the idyllic state you describe, nor are they anywhere North or West of Inverness. Actually to me the worst thing about living in Scotland is not the weather or the public services but the horrible SNP.

Dod

[scotia]

I previously stated

So a rough calculation suggests that on earnings of £50,000 an English Tax payer will pay £8360 tax, while a Scottish Tax payer will pay £9014

However to get the new rates through the Scottish Parliament today the Greens required that the higher tax band should be moved from the proposed 44275 down to 43438. So I think this adds a further £167.4 to my calculation.
Hence, if my calculations are correct, the cost of staying in Scotland for a £50,000 earner will be an additional £821 in tax year 2018/2019 - or approx. 10% more than an English resident.
I'm still staying in Scotland.

[bionichamster]

I am no fan of the SNP but I think they have correctly identified that most people in Scotland would be happy to pay a little more tax to maintain these things, to invest more in the NHS and to maintain other public services which have been cut to the bone.
C

To be honest, what the SNP have correctly identified is that most people in Scotland would be even happier for someone else to pay a little bit more to maintain the freebies.
Of course it ain't dressed up that way, but it's fairly obvious when you hear their spin on it :
"Ms Sturgeon insisted seven out of 10 Scots would pay less income tax next year under her government’s plans – adding 55% of taxpayers would be better-off than if they lived elsewhere in the UK." http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/nicola-sturgeon-defends-fair-and-progressive-income-tax-policies-11364247666984

So it's fairly irrelevant if most Scots would happily pay a wee bit more, because they won't have to as the SNP only intend to target a minority of Scots with their over complicated tax hike.

Regardless of whether you think a wee bit more tax is a good thing, they are encouraging the masses to think that someone else should pay it and that might be the start of a slippery slope.
Plenty of people voted for the SNP and they should be prepared to put their money where their mouth is, but I rather suspect that those being asked to cough up a bit more aren't at all the same people who voted for the SNP and their spending plans.

BH

[scotia]

adding 55% of taxpayers would be better-off than if they lived elsewhere in the UK.

And some of these may even receive the maximum better-off tax reduction of £20 per year
Blatant financial gerrymandering.

[UncleEbenezer]

Regardless of whether you think a wee bit more tax is a good thing, they are encouraging the masses to think that someone else should pay it and that might be the start of a slippery slope.
BH

We (all the UK) were a lot further down that slippery slope a generation ago.

Data point[1]. Housing benefit for a single, unemployed person in 1983 was £80/week outside London, or £130 in London (at least before difficult questions were asked). Thatcher was getting flak in the bleeding-heart press for limiting it so cruelly.

Why do I remember such a thing? Because 1983 is also when I took my first professional job. The job was in central London, and my income was, in ballpark terms, £130/week gross, and £80/week[2] after deduction of PAYE. When you're paying that amount of tax to price yourself out of a bedsit, you notice such figures!

I expect many young people (and Daily Wail readers) today could identify with some broadly-similar story. But to pay that proportion of your income in tax (including 9% Graduate Tax) today would imply an income somewhere north of £70k (albeit further north in England than in Jockland ). Which tells me "make someone else pay" was a whole lot worse then than now. And of course in 1983 it had already fallen from 1970s nonsense.

[1] As reported by the Daily Telegraph and the BBC at the time. Probably elsewhere too.
[2] From the payslips, £555/month gross, £365/month net.