Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to Shelford,GrahamPlatt,gpadsa,Steffers0,lansdown, for Donating to support the site

Secret Easter Bunny

UncleEbenezer
The full Lemon
Posts: 10866
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:17 pm
Has thanked: 1478 times
Been thanked: 3025 times

Re: Secret Easter Bunny

#44306

Postby UncleEbenezer » April 7th, 2017, 11:07 am

psychodom wrote:Assuming in our motley office we can identify a scrupulous individual, how about:

1) everyone writes their name on a piece of paper and on an envelope, then folds the paper and puts it into an envelope
2) a trusted individual thoroughly shuffles all the envelopes with the name-side-down
3) once shuffled our trusted individual lines up the envelopes (still name-side-down) and takes each slip of paper and places it in the next envelope)
4) envelopes are then returned to each individual with their name on

-Dom

The envelopes being randomised, that's the same as drawing everything from a hat. Except that you don't find out until later that you've got your own name.

psychodom
Posts: 28
Joined: November 7th, 2016, 8:59 am
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Secret Easter Bunny

#44316

Postby psychodom » April 7th, 2017, 11:23 am

The envelopes being randomised, that's the same as drawing everything from a hat. Except that you don't find out until later that you've got your own name.


you can't have your own name because each name slip has been explicitly taken from the envelope with your name on to another.
Sorry, I should have probably been more explicit - on return of your envelope you buy a present for the individual on the paper slip inside your envelope.

-Dom

jfgw
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2577
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:36 pm
Has thanked: 1113 times
Been thanked: 1171 times

Re: Secret Easter Bunny

#44327

Postby jfgw » April 7th, 2017, 11:48 am

psychodom wrote:Assuming in our motley office we can identify a scrupulous individual, how about:

1) everyone writes their name on a piece of paper and on an envelope, then folds the paper and puts it into an envelope
2) a trusted individual thoroughly shuffles all the envelopes with the name-side-down
3) once shuffled our trusted individual lines up the envelopes (still name-side-down) and takes each slip of paper and places it in the next envelope)
4) envelopes are then returned to each individual with their name on

-Dom


That is essentially the answer I had in mind.

My idea was to write the numbers 1 to N onto pieces of paper and fold them (where N is the number of participants). Each participant would draw a number and keep it secret. The participants would then write their names on pieces of paper and fold them and write their numbers on the outside before putting them into a bag (so no-one could catch sight of another person's number). The papers would then be laid out so that each participant in turn could look at the name on the paper with a number one greater than their own (with the exception of N who would look at the paper marked "1").

Julian F. G. W.

Gengulphus
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4255
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:17 am
Been thanked: 2628 times

Re: Secret Easter Bunny

#44362

Postby Gengulphus » April 7th, 2017, 1:24 pm

psychodom wrote:Assuming in our motley office we can identify a scrupulous individual, how about:

1) everyone writes their name on a piece of paper and on an envelope, then folds the paper and puts it into an envelope
2) a trusted individual thoroughly shuffles all the envelopes with the name-side-down
3) once shuffled our trusted individual lines up the envelopes (still name-side-down) and takes each slip of paper and places it in the next envelope)
4) envelopes are then returned to each individual with their name on

Very neat, and it solves my more difficult problem as well apart from the limitation jfgw mentioned, that each person knows the person they gave a present to didn't give one to them. So probably the solution jfgw was thinking of, or equivalent to it.

And I think it can be made more secure against accidents, unscrupulousness, etc, by making step 1 a bit more complex: everyone is given two small envelopes of different colours (say white and brown), a label with their name on it and a slip of paper with their name on it, and a bigger envelope. They're told to verify that that's what they've got, seal the slip of paper in the small white envelope and the label in the small brown envelope, put both small envelopes in the larger envelope, and close (but not seal) the larger envelope.

Steps 2 and 3 are more-or-less the same, apart from shifting the sealed white envelopes rather than slips of paper. As a result they can be done in full view of everyone and so don't rely as much on having a trusted individual - not total non-reliance, but it would basically require the individual who does the shuffling and shifting to be an accomplished stage magician to frustrate it, not just unscrupulous.

Then shuffle the envelopes thoroughly again and go through them one by one. For each, take the two smaller envelopes it contains out of it, open the brown one and affix the label it contains to the white one, again in full view of everyone. Everybody then takes the white envelope labelled with their name away to open and read the slip of paper it contains at their leisure.

Furthermore, a slight modification produces a full solution to my more difficult problem if there are 5 or more people in the office: for step 3, arrange the envelopes as a top row of two envelopes and a bottom row of more than two envelopes. Swap the small white envelopes between the two top-row envelopes, and in the bottom row transfer each small white envelope to the next envelope, wrapping around from the last to the first. The rest of the procedure is unchanged, and in the end no-one can logically exclude anyone else from being the person who gave them their present.

Like the original problem, my more difficult one is insoluble for 3 people or fewer, so that just leaves my more difficult problem for 4 people. And that's solvable by a not-too-brute-force solution: of the 24 possible permutations of four people, just 9 don't have someone giving a present to themselves. In full sight of everyone, prepare 9 sealed big envelopes, one for each of those 9 permutations. Each contains four small envelopes, each one labelled with one person's name, filled with a slip of paper naming another in accordance with the permutation, and sealed. Thoroughly shuffle those nine big envelopes and draw one. Open it, hand each small envelope to the person it's labelled with, and thoroughly destroy the remaining big envelopes without opening them (the office shredder will probably come in handy!). Each person then takes their envelope away to open and read at their leisure.

One final afterthought: rather than slips of paper, use adhesive gift labels and tell people to affix them to the gifts to indicate who they are for, without adding any other message. Provided that instruction is adhered to, it prevents any gift-giver inadvertently (or deliberately?!) giving themselves away by handwriting, writing style, etc!

Gengulphus

jfgw
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2577
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:36 pm
Has thanked: 1113 times
Been thanked: 1171 times

Re: Secret Easter Bunny

#44418

Postby jfgw » April 7th, 2017, 4:28 pm

Gengulphus wrote:Furthermore, a slight modification produces a full solution to my more difficult problem if there are 5 or more people in the office: for step 3, arrange the envelopes as a top row of two envelopes and a bottom row of more than two envelopes. Swap the small white envelopes between the two top-row envelopes, and in the bottom row transfer each small white envelope to the next envelope, wrapping around from the last to the first. The rest of the procedure is unchanged, and in the end no-one can logically exclude anyone else from being the person who gave them their present.


A neat solution. I did think briefly about this problem and wondered about a double-blind solution. For example, everyone picks a number. One person assigns letters to the numbers (without telling anyone which letter represents which number) and another person matches the givers to the receivers using the letters. I haven't thought it out fully, however.

Gengulphus wrote:One final afterthought: rather than slips of paper, use adhesive gift labels and tell people to affix them to the gifts to indicate who they are for, without adding any other message. Provided that instruction is adhered to, it prevents any gift-giver inadvertently (or deliberately?!) giving themselves away by handwriting, writing style, etc!


It also guards against an error resulting in, for example, one person getting two presents and one person getting nothing.

Julian F. G. W.

didds
Lemon Half
Posts: 5337
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:04 pm
Has thanked: 3314 times
Been thanked: 1036 times

Re: Secret Easter Bunny

#44586

Postby didds » April 8th, 2017, 11:27 am

I'm missing something here.

If person X draws X in the names-in-a-hat concept, X merely draws another name and replaces their own.

It only fully fails if the last person has a last name which is their own. then its a null and void draw and you start again.

?
didds

jfgw
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2577
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:36 pm
Has thanked: 1113 times
Been thanked: 1171 times

Re: Secret Easter Bunny

#44602

Postby jfgw » April 8th, 2017, 1:37 pm

didds wrote:I'm missing something here.

If person X draws X in the names-in-a-hat concept, X merely draws another name and replaces their own.

It only fully fails if the last person has a last name which is their own. then its a null and void draw and you start again.

?
didds


Unfortunately, that is a “keep trying until it works” solution so is not a correct answer to the original problem.

Julian F. G. W.

didds
Lemon Half
Posts: 5337
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:04 pm
Has thanked: 3314 times
Been thanked: 1036 times

Re: Secret Easter Bunny

#44733

Postby didds » April 9th, 2017, 9:09 am

ah.,... gotcha

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Secret Easter Bunny

#48638

Postby BobbyD » April 25th, 2017, 7:23 pm

If the number of workers in the office happens to be 5, 7, or 11 fire somebody at random.

...after that it's easy.


Return to “Games, Puzzles and Riddles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests