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John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

AsleepInYorkshire
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John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#424795

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » July 4th, 2021, 8:52 pm

John Lewis plans to build 10,000 rental homes

John Lewis has announced plans to move into the residential property market by building 10,000 homes for rental over the next few years.

Eww

AiY

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#424991

Postby 88V8 » July 5th, 2021, 3:37 pm

Thinking outside the box.
Morrisons owns much of its real estate... could do/could have done the same, build flats over the top.

Gotta think outside the box.

V8

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#424997

Postby Lootman » July 5th, 2021, 3:53 pm

88V8 wrote:Morrisons owns much of its real estate... could do/could have done the same, build flats over the top.

Gotta think outside the box.

It is not a particularly new concept. The Princesshay shopping centre in Exeter has apartments above many of the shops there, and was built 15-20 years ago.

The concept comes from America where building homes in malls is common e.g. the Bay Street complex in Emeryville, California. Can't say that I would want to live above a Primark, but evidently some people do.

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425012

Postby Dod101 » July 5th, 2021, 4:48 pm

Hong Kong has done this sort of thing for years so there is not much thinking outside the box going on. They also build office blocks and falts over subway stations. However it does seem to be good idea.

Dod

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425162

Postby bungeejumper » July 6th, 2021, 9:41 am

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:John Lewis has announced plans to move into the residential property market by building 10,000 homes for rental over the next few years.

Eww

Quite so. Can you imagine all those simply awful Theresa May kitchens? (Shudder) :|

BJ

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425254

Postby 88V8 » July 6th, 2021, 3:08 pm

Dod101 wrote:Hong Kong has done this sort of thing for years so there is not much thinking outside the box going on. They also build office blocks and falts over subway stations. However it does seem to be good idea.

I would much sooner verticalise the already built retail footprint than build houses on greenfield. It was routine once in the burbs to build flats over shops.
Why, just the other day I was reading a Ruth Rendell book where the setting was an antiques shop with four flats above. One of the tenants did it, btw.

V8

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425280

Postby Dod101 » July 6th, 2021, 5:25 pm

Verticalise is an interesting word which describes what we are advocating pretty well. Must remember it.

Dod

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425308

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » July 6th, 2021, 6:54 pm

88V8 wrote:Thinking outside the box.
Morrisons owns much of its real estate... could do/could have done the same, build flats over the top.

Gotta think outside the box.

V8

I've 41 years experience in the commercial aspects of building. I can't think of a worse time to consider trying to build new homes in existing buildings, let alone on undeveloped land. The skills shortage is significant currently. And the higher one looks up the tree of skillsets the less those skills are available. A top down skill shortage is, in my opinion as bad as it gets.

We can all sit around the board room table, look lovingly down at the presentation, the spreadsheets and the anticipated margin. We can all convince ourselves that those pieces of paper are telling us where we are going. The stark reality is it really isn't that simple. And by the time everyone, that sat around that table and agreed it was a beautiful plan, has realised they lack the capability to deliver it, the margins have eroded, the timelines have stretched and the quality has suffered.

John Lewis cannot acquire the skills needed to carry out their plans. The existing construction companies will retain their staff, especially in the current climate and especially if they have the correct skillset.

It smacks more to me of an idea that's got out of hand in the board room with no reality check.

I wish them well but I suspect they will get their fingers burned.

AiY

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425314

Postby scrumpyjack » July 6th, 2021, 7:04 pm

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:
88V8 wrote:Thinking outside the box.
Morrisons owns much of its real estate... could do/could have done the same, build flats over the top.

Gotta think outside the box.

V8

I've 41 years experience in the commercial aspects of building. I can't think of a worse time to consider trying to build new homes in existing buildings, let alone on undeveloped land. The skills shortage is significant currently. And the higher one looks up the tree of skillsets the less those skills are available. A top down skill shortage is, in my opinion as bad as it gets.

We can all sit around the board room table, look lovingly down at the presentation, the spreadsheets and the anticipated margin. We can all convince ourselves that those pieces of paper are telling us where we are going. The stark reality is it really isn't that simple. And by the time everyone, that sat around that table and agreed it was a beautiful plan, has realised they lack the capability to deliver it, the margins have eroded, the timelines have stretched and the quality has suffered.

John Lewis cannot acquire the skills needed to carry out their plans. The existing construction companies will retain their staff, especially in the current climate and especially if they have the correct skillset.

It smacks more to me of an idea that's got out of hand in the board room with no reality check.

I wish them well but I suspect they will get their fingers burned.

AiY


The reports are that the properties would be built " in department store car parks, above Waitrose supermarkets or next to distribution centres".
So the first and third of those should be relatively simple? It is only building above supermarkets that would be difficult presumably?

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425319

Postby Dod101 » July 6th, 2021, 7:25 pm

I gather that it is not just the skill sets that may be in short supply; so are basic building materials. However if somebody does not produce the ideas nothing is going to happen and I imagine that there are contractors around who will be willing and capable of taking on this work. Building on top of supermarkets may be a trifle difficult if the foundations for instance are not capable of withstanding the additional stresses but building on car parks cannot be that difficult.

Come on AiY we need a bit more of a 'can do' attitude. Negativity never got us anywhere.

Dod

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425321

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » July 6th, 2021, 7:32 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:The reports are that the properties would be built " in department store car parks, above Waitrose supermarkets or next to distribution centres".
So the first and third of those should be relatively simple? It is only building above supermarkets that would be difficult presumably?

I'm not a structural engineer although I have some knowledge of structures because I get involved in procurement and payment. I'm assuming when they say next to distribution centres they are talking about building from scratch on undeveloped land? That being the case they'd be better off with a straight asset sale whilst maintaining some covenants on what is built to hopefully have a positive impact on the bottom line of the land value.

Building in multi storey (?) car parks or above existing stores isn't going to be cheap. If the foundations are engineered and designed to support a supermarket there's no reason to believe they could support additional weight above. Why over design them when they were built? The existing steel structures will again be designed to support the existing building. They too may not support additional load.

The more I write the more I beginning to think there may have been too much sherry in the JL board room.

AiY

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425342

Postby Charlottesquare » July 6th, 2021, 8:13 pm

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:The reports are that the properties would be built " in department store car parks, above Waitrose supermarkets or next to distribution centres".
So the first and third of those should be relatively simple? It is only building above supermarkets that would be difficult presumably?

I'm not a structural engineer although I have some knowledge of structures because I get involved in procurement and payment. I'm assuming when they say next to distribution centres they are talking about building from scratch on undeveloped land? That being the case they'd be better off with a straight asset sale whilst maintaining some covenants on what is built to hopefully have a positive impact on the bottom line of the land value.

Building in multi storey (?) car parks or above existing stores isn't going to be cheap. If the foundations are engineered and designed to support a supermarket there's no reason to believe they could support additional weight above. Why over design them when they were built? The existing steel structures will again be designed to support the existing building. They too may not support additional load.

The more I write the more I beginning to think there may have been too much sherry in the JL board room.

AiY


Urban villages are hot within planning at present( my daughter getting her Msc in Urban Planning a few years ago , and currently employed as a graduate planner, informing this understanding), the concept is that one lives, works, shops, enjoys leisure locally thus reducing travel and transport pressures. There are of course issues, living besides retail with deliveries coming in at all times , including during the night ,may be challenging.

We do not ourselves build these days (I am circa 24 years in the property industry, my part being our funding/finances rather than what gets built) but I do have a contact who does mainly residential developments (35-180 units per site), chatting with him the other week he is currently struggling getting contract prices which have any certainty regarding material costs as the contracted builders are apparently nervous about fixed contract pricing given the escalating material costs.

Having said that there is still demand for sites, especially build to rent, often the developer having front end contracts with the end users, these helping to raise loan finance, we just sold such a site last week (commercial site to be converted to mainly residential) where the purchaser appears to have such a structure lined up with a group of investors via an SPV.

Property development is a bit like musical chairs, fine until the music stops.(we were holding sites in 2007/2008 which was not pleasant)

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425362

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » July 6th, 2021, 9:53 pm

Dod101 wrote:I gather that it is not just the skill sets that may be in short supply; so are basic building materials. However if somebody does not produce the ideas nothing is going to happen and I imagine that there are contractors around who will be willing and capable of taking on this work. Building on top of supermarkets may be a trifle difficult if the foundations for instance are not capable of withstanding the additional stresses but building on car parks cannot be that difficult.

Come on AiY we need a bit more of a 'can do' attitude. Negativity never got us anywhere.

Dod

I know it sounds negative. I am knee deep in a build to rent site. There is money flooding into the business from investors and rental incomes, yet I am more than aware that this is an investment business trying to build and that shows.

That aside I assumed (maybe wrongly) that JL were talking about building in "multi storey car parks". As such I'd set out with the assumption that I had to demolish and start again rather than adapt the existing structure. I have some experience of this kind of work, in particular façade retention and working on small cramped building sites.

I agree we need ideas. But they do need to be tempered and realistic.

However, to offset my negativity can I just show you the largest house that I've ever been involved in building.

Image
My own image/photograph

AiY

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425369

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » July 6th, 2021, 10:08 pm

Snorvey wrote:Which footballer lives in There?

Team Southern Scotland :lol:

AiY

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425378

Postby Lanark » July 6th, 2021, 11:04 pm

I'll never understand the obsession with putting dormer windows everywhere.

If they can afford such a large house, you'd think they could afford to make the walls a bit higher and have a proper first floor with full size windows.

Of course I'm assuming those are actually real rooms on the first floor and they haven't just stuck the dormers on for effect.

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425383

Postby Charlottesquare » July 6th, 2021, 11:15 pm

Lanark wrote:I'll never understand the obsession with putting dormer windows everywhere.

If they can afford such a large house, you'd think they could afford to make the walls a bit higher and have a proper first floor with full size windows.

Of course I'm assuming those are actually real rooms on the first floor and they haven't just stuck the dormers on for effect.


Tends to be planning constraints re overall building heights, coupled with footplate size constraints on site leading to dormers for those extra sq ft.(Site percentage built on)

Still, they are doing something for roofers as in x years time it will be the repairs at the dormers and any valleys that keep the roofers happy. (My house is Victorian with two dormers, virtually all repairs over our 24 years of ownership have been re the dormers)

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425391

Postby Dod101 » July 6th, 2021, 11:40 pm

Charlottesquare wrote:
Lanark wrote:I'll never understand the obsession with putting dormer windows everywhere.

If they can afford such a large house, you'd think they could afford to make the walls a bit higher and have a proper first floor with full size windows.

Of course I'm assuming those are actually real rooms on the first floor and they haven't just stuck the dormers on for effect.


Tends to be planning constraints re overall building heights, coupled with footplate size constraints on site leading to dormers for those extra sq ft.(Site percentage built on)

Still, they are doing something for roofers as in x years time it will be the repairs at the dormers and any valleys that keep the roofers happy. (My house is Victorian with two dormers, virtually all repairs over our 24 years of ownership have been re the dormers)


I think part of the thinking is that with dormers, a house can pass planning as a mere 1 1/2 storied building and the neighbours won't worry until it is built that is. But I agree that dormer windows provide neither one thing nor the other. We have them up and down our street and I hate them. I would I think actually prefer a proper two story house.

Dod

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425563

Postby Charlottesquare » July 7th, 2021, 2:31 pm

Dod101 wrote:
Charlottesquare wrote:
Lanark wrote:I'll never understand the obsession with putting dormer windows everywhere.

If they can afford such a large house, you'd think they could afford to make the walls a bit higher and have a proper first floor with full size windows.

Of course I'm assuming those are actually real rooms on the first floor and they haven't just stuck the dormers on for effect.


Tends to be planning constraints re overall building heights, coupled with footplate size constraints on site leading to dormers for those extra sq ft.(Site percentage built on)

Still, they are doing something for roofers as in x years time it will be the repairs at the dormers and any valleys that keep the roofers happy. (My house is Victorian with two dormers, virtually all repairs over our 24 years of ownership have been re the dormers)


I think part of the thinking is that with dormers, a house can pass planning as a mere 1 1/2 storied building and the neighbours won't worry until it is built that is. But I agree that dormer windows provide neither one thing nor the other. We have them up and down our street and I hate them. I would I think actually prefer a proper two story house.

Dod


Ours is one of a pair of, two storey plus dormers in the roof, houses, the floor with the dormer windows would likely have been for the staff.

You can even work out the pecking order, the two rooms with dormers front/rear for the senior staff (cook etc), the smaller room with a velux window and fireplace (North side) for the next senior and the dogsbody got the 8ftx8ft south facing room with velux, cum ceiling and no fireplace, all the family would have then lived in the bottom two floors.

I believe the houses were built for Sea Captains in the late 1860s whereas the two storey ones with flat roofs that are built around the corner were for Ship's Mates.

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425571

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » July 7th, 2021, 2:53 pm

Lanark wrote:I'll never understand the obsession with putting dormer windows everywhere.

If they can afford such a large house, you'd think they could afford to make the walls a bit higher and have a proper first floor with full size windows.

Of course I'm assuming those are actually real rooms on the first floor and they haven't just stuck the dormers on for effect.

Hmmm ...

The house in the photograph is 7,300 FT2. The Floor to ceiling heights downstairs are 2700mm. Upstairs they are 2550mm. There is also an attic floor which is 2400mm high. It's the "games" room with a bedroom and ensuite. The games room could without any compromise fit a full sized snooker table. There would be no cues banging on any walls.

The dormers are in an "office" above the triple garage (which has two Tesla's in). The single dormer above the front door is for the landing area which is frankly huge. And the two smaller dormers are in a small bedroom above the cinema room. The house also has a gym a formal lounge, a utility room that is larger than my kitchen a dayroom at the rear and contains four staircases.

I can assure you there's no lack of light anywhere in the home and at no point does one feel the need to duck to miss ceiling or anything.

The scale of the home can actually be seen as the two range rovers on the front are dwarfed by the building.

AiY

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Re: John Lewis Plans Build to Rent Homes

#425576

Postby Dod101 » July 7th, 2021, 3:16 pm

Charlottesquare wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
Charlottesquare wrote:
Tends to be planning constraints re overall building heights, coupled with footplate size constraints on site leading to dormers for those extra sq ft.(Site percentage built on)

Still, they are doing something for roofers as in x years time it will be the repairs at the dormers and any valleys that keep the roofers happy. (My house is Victorian with two dormers, virtually all repairs over our 24 years of ownership have been re the dormers)


I think part of the thinking is that with dormers, a house can pass planning as a mere 1 1/2 storied building and the neighbours won't worry until it is built that is. But I agree that dormer windows provide neither one thing nor the other. We have them up and down our street and I hate them. I would I think actually prefer a proper two story house.

Dod


Ours is one of a pair of, two storey plus dormers in the roof, houses, the floor with the dormer windows would likely have been for the staff.

You can even work out the pecking order, the two rooms with dormers front/rear for the senior staff (cook etc), the smaller room with a velux window and fireplace (North side) for the next senior and the dogsbody got the 8ftx8ft south facing room with velux, cum ceiling and no fireplace, all the family would have then lived in the bottom two floors.

I believe the houses were built for Sea Captains in the late 1860s whereas the two storey ones with flat roofs that are built around the corner were for Ship's Mates.


That sounds interesting. I had a late Victorian house on two floors plus a mansard style roof giving the attic sufficient ceiling height to be full sized living areas. We had a permanent stair and ceiling height of at least 8 feet and velux windows, no dormers. Originally there was a maid's room on the first floor.

I have houses similar to the original one which AiY has highlighted, in the next street to where I now live. Not sure why people need houses of that size, especially when a number of them appear to be unoccupied for most of the time.

Dod


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