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Musk endeavours

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redsturgeon
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Re: Musk endeavours

#228873

Postby redsturgeon » June 12th, 2019, 10:11 am

tjh290633 wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:With rapid charging methods it is already possible to charge up to 80% of full charge in 30 minutes. With the right infrastructure and say five years improvement in technology giving perhaps 70% charging in 10 minutes then this be surely becomes a feasible arrangement. A ten minute stop to give another 150 miles. At the moment the advice in driving an ICE car is to stop for a break every two hours so what's different.

I'd agree though that the current lack of charging infrastructure is a major impediment to ease of use for BEVs.

John

Yes, but what is the effect on battery life? My phone has a rapid charging system, which seems to work well, but no idea how it might affect battery life.

My choice would be to go for induction charging, with every parking space a charging point. Just park over the plate, sensors determine that it is a battery car, and off you go. Have a cup of coffee, or what you will, come back, switch off sensor and you are ready for a few more miles.

Mucking about with charging leads is for the birds.

TJH


People seem quite happy to fill up their cars with smelly dangerous fluids at fuel stations and are quite happy to plug in appliances like toasters and vacuum cleaners at home so what is the big deal about plugging in a car? Sure induction charging would be nice but it is a whole new layer of complexity above where we are at present. Let's just get a basic charging infrastructure in place first.

John

odysseus2000
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Re: Musk endeavours

#228878

Postby odysseus2000 » June 12th, 2019, 10:20 am

tjh290633 wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:With rapid charging methods it is already possible to charge up to 80% of full charge in 30 minutes. With the right infrastructure and say five years improvement in technology giving perhaps 70% charging in 10 minutes then this be surely becomes a feasible arrangement. A ten minute stop to give another 150 miles. At the moment the advice in driving an ICE car is to stop for a break every two hours so what's different.

I'd agree though that the current lack of charging infrastructure is a major impediment to ease of use for BEVs.

John

Yes, but what is the effect on battery life? My phone has a rapid charging system, which seems to work well, but no idea how it might affect battery life.

My choice would be to go for induction charging, with every parking space a charging point. Just park over the plate, sensors determine that it is a battery car, and off you go. Have a cup of coffee, or what you will, come back, switch off sensor and you are ready for a few more miles.

Mucking about with charging leads is for the birds.

TJH


There is a huge divergence of the effect of rapid charging on batteries. Many argue it causes extreme premature failure, but there are real world examples such as mentioned on phones were there is no clear short term degradation.

There are many possible ways of wireless charging, some indicating charging plates under road surfaces that charge cars as they drive, perhaps via surge to super capacitors and then feed into batteries. Likely there will be some significant inventions in this area coming, especially if super capacitor prices fall and storage capacity rises. However, now the rapid chargers are getting close to hydro-carbon fuelling times. Folk might not like plugging a wire in but the current alternative is put in a pipe that then sends out some relatively nasty chemicals with emissions into the air.

Much depends on what the politicians decide to do about air pollution while trying to keep legacy auto and legacy oil sweet. I wonder how long it will be before public opinion is enough for politicians to realise there are votes in it and then many things will change quickly. There was intense resistance to the clean air act but fogs and lung disease caused it to be actioned very quickly. The same might happen with electric transport.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#228897

Postby BobbyD » June 12th, 2019, 11:27 am

tjh290633 wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:With rapid charging methods it is already possible to charge up to 80% of full charge in 30 minutes. With the right infrastructure and say five years improvement in technology giving perhaps 70% charging in 10 minutes then this be surely becomes a feasible arrangement. A ten minute stop to give another 150 miles. At the moment the advice in driving an ICE car is to stop for a break every two hours so what's different.

I'd agree though that the current lack of charging infrastructure is a major impediment to ease of use for BEVs.

John

Yes, but what is the effect on battery life? My phone has a rapid charging system, which seems to work well, but no idea how it might affect battery life.

My choice would be to go for induction charging, with every parking space a charging point. Just park over the plate, sensors determine that it is a battery car, and off you go. Have a cup of coffee, or what you will, come back, switch off sensor and you are ready for a few more miles.

Mucking about with charging leads is for the birds.

TJH


There are two things which are going to be important here, time and cost. The highest claim I'm aware of for wireless is 120 kW charging across a 6 inch air gap at 97% efficiency, in a project whose aim is charging at highway speed. Meanwhile 150kW wired chargers are already out there in the wild and cars with 350 kW charging capability are being released this year.

At home time is less relevant and cost, safety and good battery management will be decisive factors. If you own a forecourt halfway up the M6, or are in a car which needs refilling halfway up the M6 time becomes far more important, and if you want to open a BEV only lane on the M6 fitted with a 300kW induction charger we are back to money and lots of it...

Until the ability of deployed wireless to distribute charge catches up with the ability of deployed cars to accept charge I'd expect 'replacement petrol station' scenarios to remain wired.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#228907

Postby PeterGray » June 12th, 2019, 11:47 am

The costs of providing induction charging in all car parking spaces, or on motorways would be massive. There are enough problems, both costwise and in practical terms of providing basic at home charging for the very large numbers of car owning households who live in houses with no off road parking, and probably no assigned parking space. Until these sorts of recharging issues are dealt with they will provide a major drag on EV uptake. Even an electric "shopping trolley" for round town use is impractical for a large proportion of the population at the moment.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#228920

Postby odysseus2000 » June 12th, 2019, 12:40 pm

PeterGray wrote:The costs of providing induction charging in all car parking spaces, or on motorways would be massive. There are enough problems, both costwise and in practical terms of providing basic at home charging for the very large numbers of car owning households who live in houses with no off road parking, and probably no assigned parking space. Until these sorts of recharging issues are dealt with they will provide a major drag on EV uptake. Even an electric "shopping trolley" for round town use is impractical for a large proportion of the population at the moment.


Yes, but its the kind of project that might get votes for one of the Tory leadership contenders.

Sure it will be expensive but there is £39 billion that might be waved in front of voters faces.

The cost to have the clean air act, later natural gas appliances etc was not small but it was paid.

Of course everyone and his dog is trying it with the Tory contenders. The BBC decision to scrap the free over 75 license fee just happened to be announced at the beginning of the Tory leadership contest, might some of the £39 billion go there?

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Re: Musk endeavours

#228930

Postby BobbyD » June 12th, 2019, 12:56 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
Sure it will be expensive but there is £39 billion that might be waved in front of voters faces.


Ody, some of the stuff you post here is let's say enthusiastic, but there must be limits...

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Re: Musk endeavours

#228939

Postby BobbyD » June 12th, 2019, 1:28 pm

Even Electrek are getting in on the short range spin...

Tesla will soon have a 400-mile electric car and you don’t need it

...Electrek’s Take
I think that “will not be long” could be as soon as by the end of the year.

As we previously reported, there are indications that Tesla is working on a battery pack upgrade for Model S and Model X, which is likely going to result in a range of over 400 miles for the former.

Anyway, here’s the kicker: you don’t really need a 400-mile electric car.

Range anxiety is, for the most part, an education problem and for the little part that is a real technology concern, it’s mostly due to charging capacity and infrastructure – not range.

200 miles of range is more than enough for well over 95% of the population, especially when combined with expansive quick charging networks like Tesla’s superchargers. There are maybe some extreme use cases, like people who do a lot of mileage and long-distances for business, who really need more than that.

But as the charging infrastructure grows and fast-charging capacity increases, long ranges on single charges become less relevant.

The vast majority of trips in North America are less than 30 miles and for the very rare occasions that the average driver travels more than 200 miles in a single day, they generally take breaks (to eat, drink, or other things), which gives opportunities to charge.

Nonetheless, a 400-mile electric car has some advantages. There are still some people who insist that they would never buy an EV with anything less than 400 miles of range, even though, again, they don’t need it.

Tesla could get into that market, but I think it’s becoming increasingly small as the population becomes more educated about electric cars.



- https://electrek.co/2019/06/11/tesla-40 ... ctric-car/

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Re: Musk endeavours

#228961

Postby PeterGray » June 12th, 2019, 3:32 pm

Sure it will be expensive but there is £39 billion that might be waved in front of voters faces.

Yes but the £39bn is payable over something like 60 years, a significant part is pension liabilities, so there is no £39bn to wave around, and no sane Tory leader will end up refusing to pay our obligations. Even Boris probably wouldn't either, though no one could vouch for Raab.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#229000

Postby odysseus2000 » June 12th, 2019, 4:52 pm

PeterGray wrote:Sure it will be expensive but there is £39 billion that might be waved in front of voters faces.

Yes but the £39bn is payable over something like 60 years, a significant part is pension liabilities, so there is no £39bn to wave around, and no sane Tory leader will end up refusing to pay our obligations. Even Boris probably wouldn't either, though no one could vouch for Raab.


There is reality and there is political electioneering.

If any of the candidates sniffs votes in some green pledges, no matter the cost, he or she will get on the stump about it.

If this happens, I have no idea if it does, it will imho set up a fear in voters minds that they need to get green and clean and lead to increased sales of electric cars even if the candidate is defeated.

Imho the transition to electric is now inevitable and the only questions are the time scale and how to make money out of it.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#229008

Postby redsturgeon » June 12th, 2019, 5:35 pm

Moderator Message:
Please let's not go down the Brexit route here. It is off topic and will be deleted.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#229013

Postby TUK020 » June 12th, 2019, 5:53 pm

BobbyD wrote:
There are two things which are going to be important here, time and cost. The highest claim I'm aware of for wireless is 120 kW charging across a 6 inch air gap at 97% efficiency, in a project whose aim is charging at highway speed. Meanwhile 150kW wired chargers are already out there in the wild and cars with 350 kW charging capability are being released this year.

At home time is less relevant and cost, safety and good battery management will be decisive factors. If you own a forecourt halfway up the M6, or are in a car which needs refilling halfway up the M6 time becomes far more important, and if you want to open a BEV only lane on the M6 fitted with a 300kW induction charger we are back to money and lots of it...

Until the ability of deployed wireless to distribute charge catches up with the ability of deployed cars to accept charge I'd expect 'replacement petrol station' scenarios to remain wired.


Wireless is likely to be used for specific niches - and ones likely to be early adopter segments for EVs.
Watch for wireless charging at taxi ranks, bus stops, in front of traffic lights in bus lanes, delivery hubs/depots

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Re: Musk endeavours

#229036

Postby PeterGray » June 12th, 2019, 8:26 pm

Imho the transition to electric is now inevitable and the only questions are the time scale and how to make money out of it.

Well I don't really disagree with that - though I think we might disagree on timescales!

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Re: Musk endeavours

#229037

Postby BobbyD » June 12th, 2019, 8:31 pm

TUK020 wrote:Wireless is likely to be used for specific niches - and ones likely to be early adopter segments for EVs.
Watch for wireless charging at taxi ranks, bus stops, in front of traffic lights in bus lanes, delivery hubs/depots


It's possible, but most the electric busses I've seen have had enough charge to get through the day, although BYD have recently had to install a few wirelss charging points because their busses weren't delivering stated range, but early days etc.

I'm fairly sure I remember a driver of the new London electric taxi saying in an interview that they hold enough charge to get through the day...

How far do you reckon a taxi actually moves in a day?

How much do you reckon such installations would cost, with the potential for becoming obsolete because wireless charging tech moves on or becomes unnecessary in 18 months time...

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Re: Musk endeavours

#229038

Postby odysseus2000 » June 12th, 2019, 8:48 pm

BobbyD wrote:
TUK020 wrote:Wireless is likely to be used for specific niches - and ones likely to be early adopter segments for EVs.
Watch for wireless charging at taxi ranks, bus stops, in front of traffic lights in bus lanes, delivery hubs/depots


It's possible, but most the electric busses I've seen have had enough charge to get through the day, although BYD have recently had to install a few wirelss charging points because their busses weren't delivering stated range, but early days etc.

I'm fairly sure I remember a driver of the new London electric taxi saying in an interview that they hold enough charge to get through the day...

How far do you reckon a taxi actually moves in a day?

How much do you reckon such installations would cost, with the potential for becoming obsolete because wireless charging tech moves on or becomes unnecessary in 18 months time...


Prius hybrids are popular with city Taxi drivers as their taxi are mostly stationary and even when driving recover a lot of the energy via regenerative braking. Bev have similar advantages plus they don't have to lug fuel and a ice around as well.

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#229067

Postby tjh290633 » June 12th, 2019, 10:51 pm

BobbyD wrote:It's possible, but most the electric busses I've seen have had enough charge to get through the day, although BYD have recently had to install a few wirelss charging points because their busses weren't delivering stated range, but early days etc.

I was on one of the London BYD single deckers recently, and the bus was swapped in mid-journey, presumably to go back to base to be charged up again. This was at about 4pm.

TJH

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Re: Musk endeavours

#229081

Postby Howard » June 13th, 2019, 12:19 am

BobbyD wrote:
I'm fairly sure I remember a driver of the new London electric taxi saying in an interview that they hold enough charge to get through the day...



The new electric London Taxis actually also have a range-extending petrol engine.

https://www.levcwestlondon.co.uk/new-ta ... hiEALw_wcB

There are some older all-electric cabs, but I believe they don't have enough range to get through the day without a charge.

regards

Howard

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Re: Musk endeavours

#229108

Postby odysseus2000 » June 13th, 2019, 8:16 am

Prius used as Taxi, some have done over 400,000 trouble free miles:

https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-ne ... ood-thing/

BEV with enough range have these & additional advantages.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#229372

Postby odysseus2000 » June 13th, 2019, 11:11 pm

Interesting comments on Tesla by a mechanic:

https://youtu.be/W9mjH8kEr34

He argues is case well, but Imho he has failed to grasp what is going on & is applying previous experience to what I believe to be radical change in how society is powered & the influence Tesla will have.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#229380

Postby BobbyD » June 14th, 2019, 12:22 am

U.S. denies Tesla, GM, Uber 25% Chinese tariff relief

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Trump administration is expanding efforts to block the use of Chinese technology in advanced vehicles, denying additional requests by Tesla Inc for tariff relief on key components of its electric vehicles, and rejecting ride-hailing company Uber’s petition to waive tariffs on electric scooters and at least 50 separate requests by General Motors Co.

After the United States slapped 25 percent tariffs on $50 billion of Chinese imports last year under the two countries’ trade dispute, the U.S. Trade Representative (USTR) allowed companies to petition for exemptions.

Government documents show the USTR rejected requests to exempt Tesla’s Model 3 car computer and center screen in May 29 letters, saying they both concern “a product strategically important or related to ‘Made in China 2025,’ or other Chinese industrial programs.”

In May, Reuters reported that USTR had rejected a separate request by Tesla to exempt the company’s Autopilot “brain” from the tariffs.


- https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1TE2AM

That's not going to help.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#229382

Postby odysseus2000 » June 14th, 2019, 12:31 am

Trump's tariffs will imho likely lead to more US manufacturing which with automation is likely as low cost as China cost + tariff.

Although many are saying that next president, if not Trump, will reverse these tariffs I doubt it & so I expect more US manufacturing & a reversal of the movement of US jobs to China & elsewhere.

All of this will raise US consumer prices & may set off some product inflation.

Regards,


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