Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site

Musk endeavours

The Big Picture Place
BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#402569

Postby BobbyD » April 8th, 2021, 11:27 am

odysseus2000 wrote:Revised S & X models delayed:

https://electrek.co/2021/04/07/tesla-de ... -vehicles/

Not clear what the issues here are, but the universal problem of cell shortage may be a factor although not mentioned by Electrek.

Regards,


It didn't strike you as strange that Tesla announced zero Q1 production of a car which Musk claimed was in production in February?

You think they are feeding older, lower margin models in preference to making the very public deadline for the refreshed S/X?

Finally we've found something which tesla do better than legacy! Roadster, Semi, CT, Plaid, X, S... not bad for a company which has 2 whole models in production.

odysseus2000 wrote:Munro does a quick appraisal of the ID4, no driving, just his view of colour, lines, driving, stowage etc:

imho this is way too small for the US market and has too much trying to make its controls like those of an ICE car


If the ID.4 is way too small for the US market then so are the model 3 and the model Y...

Yes, having controls that customers will be familiar with is obviously a silly idea...

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#402575

Postby BobbyD » April 8th, 2021, 11:42 am

green @greentheonly

Lifehack for those that are concerned about Tesla seeing them doing something bad. (see the full thread for more)

Image



- https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status ... 9884707844

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2178
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 885 times
Been thanked: 1017 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#402726

Postby Howard » April 8th, 2021, 7:57 pm

Perhaps not very surprising news. Tesla's plant in Germany may suffer delays.

https://insideevs.com/news/499714/tesla ... rritating/

It will be interesting to see if Tesla have managed to improve their sales volume in Germany. They had time to ship a lot of cars to Europe during the quarter but demand for the Model 3 hasn't been that great in Europe this year. Sales in the UK in March were ok but Q1 in total wasn't impressive. The French market picked up but Norway and the Netherlands were disappointing. We should see the final figures for BEV sales for Q1 Europe soon.

I'm guessing that sales in China and the USA were good given the total sales published by Tesla for Q1.

Sales sources are SMMT and https://eu-evs.com/.

regards

Howard

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#402786

Postby BobbyD » April 9th, 2021, 3:50 am

Howard wrote:Perhaps not very surprising news. Tesla's plant in Germany may suffer delays.


Not much, I pointed out the absence of final planning approval 6 months ago! Apparently this was project fear.

Is Tesla an old Californian word for 'delayed'? That's the Semi, The CT, The new S, The new X, The S plaid, and the German plant all delayed. Oh, and the Roadster - it really is getting difficult to keep track!

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2178
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 885 times
Been thanked: 1017 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#403025

Postby Howard » April 9th, 2021, 9:37 pm

CleanTechnica have released their estimates for BEV sales in Germany. They estimate that Tesla sold 5,445 Model 3 cars in Q1.

That suggests that Tesla sales in March were only just over 3,000 cars.

VW BEV models are unsurprisingly selling well.

Tesla's share of the BEV market in Europe appears to be dropping again as more popular BEVs are available.

Will a delay in the German plant be a problem? At the moment the California and Chinese plant can easily meet European demand.

regards

Howard

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/04/08/ge ... re-growth/

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6358
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1527 times
Been thanked: 958 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#403046

Postby odysseus2000 » April 9th, 2021, 10:32 pm

Munro continues his analysis of the ID4, just looking under the hood:

https://youtu.be/Xax1HmVPKZY

After a few minutes I began to wonder if VW have ever made any cars before as this one is full of school boy errors.

Regards,

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2178
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 885 times
Been thanked: 1017 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#403066

Postby Howard » April 9th, 2021, 11:56 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Munro continues his analysis of the ID4, just looking under the hood:

https://youtu.be/Xax1HmVPKZY

After a few minutes I began to wonder if VW have ever made any cars before as this one is full of school boy errors.

Regards,


Explain the errors.

Yes the VW uses steel not more expensive aluminium but the only major point Munro makes is that there is no front boot in the VW. Maybe that's because there is plenty of boot space at the back of the car? Would you pay a lot extra for a second small boot in the front of the car?

If VW succeed in making desirable reliable cars at lower cost and higher margins than Tesla maybe using steel is a good idea?

regards

Howard

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6358
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1527 times
Been thanked: 958 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#403067

Postby odysseus2000 » April 10th, 2021, 12:13 am

Howard wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:Munro continues his analysis of the ID4, just looking under the hood:

https://youtu.be/Xax1HmVPKZY

After a few minutes I began to wonder if VW have ever made any cars before as this one is full of school boy errors.

Regards,


Explain the errors.

Yes the VW uses steel not more expensive aluminium but the only major point Munro makes is that there is no front boot in the VW. Maybe that's because there is plenty of boot space at the back of the car? Would you pay a lot extra for a second small boot in the front of the car?

If VW succeed in making desirable reliable cars at lower cost and higher margins than Tesla maybe using steel is a good idea?

regards

Howard


The firemans access hidden under the water bottle, the fuses with no identification until you pull the fuse out, steel (as you note) when Aluminium would make a better bonet... This is a car designed by ICE engineers who have not made the transition from ICE to BEV and in attempting the transition have created this Frankenstein monster.

Sure VW will sell some, but this is going to need extensive revisions to be competitive and who knows if Diess survives the fallout. If i was A VW engineer I would be ashamed of this.

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#403071

Postby BobbyD » April 10th, 2021, 12:26 am

Howard wrote:Yes the VW uses steel not more expensive aluminium but the only major point Munro makes is that there is no front boot in the VW. Maybe that's because there is plenty of boot space at the back of the car? Would you pay a lot extra for a second small boot in the front of the car?


In an electrified petrol model frunks are making use of space which was designed to hold a part which is no longer included with the car, and can't be repurposed more productively without redesigning the car as a a purpose built BEV.

In a pureblood BEV frunks are a sign that somebody was still thinking like an ICE car designer, and failed to optimise the design for BEV.

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2178
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 885 times
Been thanked: 1017 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#403073

Postby Howard » April 10th, 2021, 12:41 am

"The BMW Group reports 33.5% year-over-year increase of vehicle sales (of all its brands combined) in the first quarter of 2021, to a total of 636,606.

The BMW and MINI plug-in electric cars were at the forefront of the growth, as the combined plug-in volume has increased 129.8% year-over-year to 70,207, which is not far from the Q4 2020 record."

BMW seem to be handling the transition to BEVs very successfully and, as predicted, they really know how to sell PHEVs and make a profit!

https://insideevs.com/news/499731/bmw-g ... es-2021q1/

And they did attract one very resourceful customer.

"A US man borrowed a BMW from a dealership, used it to rob a bank, then paid for the car with the cash". :)

Not recommended - he's gone to jail for 20 years and had to hand the car back.

https://www.businessinsider.co.za/texas ... pay-2021-3

regards

Howard

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#403076

Postby BobbyD » April 10th, 2021, 1:08 am

Howard wrote:"The BMW Group reports 33.5% year-over-year increase of vehicle sales (of all its brands combined) in the first quarter of 2021, to a total of 636,606.

The BMW and MINI plug-in electric cars were at the forefront of the growth, as the combined plug-in volume has increased 129.8% year-over-year to 70,207, which is not far from the Q4 2020 record."


Obvious legacy death spiral!

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6358
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1527 times
Been thanked: 958 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#403141

Postby odysseus2000 » April 10th, 2021, 11:45 am

BobbyD wrote:
Howard wrote:Yes the VW uses steel not more expensive aluminium but the only major point Munro makes is that there is no front boot in the VW. Maybe that's because there is plenty of boot space at the back of the car? Would you pay a lot extra for a second small boot in the front of the car?


In an electrified petrol model frunks are making use of space which was designed to hold a part which is no longer included with the car, and can't be repurposed more productively without redesigning the car as a a purpose built BEV.

In a pureblood BEV frunks are a sign that somebody was still thinking like an ICE car designer, and failed to optimise the design for BEV.


The basic idea of a car is that it transports the driver and his/her stuff and any passengers from where they are to where they want to be.

Adding as much space as possible for stuff is what drivers and their passengers want.

Regards,

dealtn
Lemon Half
Posts: 6072
Joined: November 21st, 2016, 4:26 pm
Has thanked: 441 times
Been thanked: 2324 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#403144

Postby dealtn » April 10th, 2021, 11:55 am

odysseus2000 wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
Howard wrote:Yes the VW uses steel not more expensive aluminium but the only major point Munro makes is that there is no front boot in the VW. Maybe that's because there is plenty of boot space at the back of the car? Would you pay a lot extra for a second small boot in the front of the car?


In an electrified petrol model frunks are making use of space which was designed to hold a part which is no longer included with the car, and can't be repurposed more productively without redesigning the car as a a purpose built BEV.

In a pureblood BEV frunks are a sign that somebody was still thinking like an ICE car designer, and failed to optimise the design for BEV.


The basic idea of a car is that it transports the driver and his/her stuff and any passengers from where they are to where they want to be.

Adding as much space as possible for stuff is what drivers and their passengers want.

Regards,


No it isn't, else we would be seeing huge demand for lorries.

All that is required is sufficient space, not as much space as possible.

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6358
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1527 times
Been thanked: 958 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#403147

Postby odysseus2000 » April 10th, 2021, 12:06 pm

dealtnNo it isn't, else we would be seeing huge demand for lorries.

All that is required is sufficient space, not as much space as possible.


No, what punters want is as much useable space for their stuff as possible within the constraints of the vehicle size that they want. Sure if one could easily park a lorry and its fuel consumption was low then folk might prefer lorries, but these things are not true.

If you compared the Tesla 3 to the ID4, one finds that the ID4 has no frunk and that the charging cables in the ID4 are stowed right at the bottom of the already small rear boot space meaning that to charge the car one has to take out all the luggage to get to the cables. This is so inconvenient that most users of ID4 store the cables untidily on top of all their luggage.

Regards,

tjh290633
Lemon Half
Posts: 8206
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:20 am
Has thanked: 913 times
Been thanked: 4096 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#403151

Postby tjh290633 » April 10th, 2021, 12:23 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:the ID4 has no frunk

Is a "frunk" your expression for storage space ahead of the driver, as in the original VW Beetle?

What do VW put there in the ID4?

TJH

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6358
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1527 times
Been thanked: 958 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#403165

Postby odysseus2000 » April 10th, 2021, 1:18 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:the ID4 has no frunk

Is a "frunk" your expression for storage space ahead of the driver, as in the original VW Beetle?

What do VW put there in the ID4?

TJH


Frunk, Yes, storage space ahead of driver.

ID4 is just a clutter of various pipes, fuses and such that with better design could have been removed or placed in less obtrusive places.

Munro gives a good video here (12 mins 45 run time):

https://youtu.be/Xax1HmVPKZY

The difference between the model 3 Frunk and the ID4 is remarkable, starting with the heavy bonnet on the ID4 and it gets worse.

Regards,

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2178
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 885 times
Been thanked: 1017 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#403190

Postby Howard » April 10th, 2021, 2:27 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
dealtnNo it isn't, else we would be seeing huge demand for lorries.

All that is required is sufficient space, not as much space as possible.


No, what punters want is as much useable space for their stuff as possible within the constraints of the vehicle size that they want. Sure if one could easily park a lorry and its fuel consumption was low then folk might prefer lorries, but these things are not true.

If you compared the Tesla 3 to the ID4, one finds that the ID4 has no frunk and that the charging cables in the ID4 are stowed right at the bottom of the already small rear boot space meaning that to charge the car one has to take out all the luggage to get to the cables. This is so inconvenient that most users of ID4 store the cables untidily on top of all their luggage.

Regards,


Ody

You are showing your ignorance. You obviously have never driven or charged an electric car.

Virtually all public chargers and certainly all fast public chargers have their own cables so a spare cable isn't needed. And, if you have a home charger most people leave the cable plugged in to the charger, or like me have a charger with its own cable. The only time a "loose" cable is needed in the car is if a driver has an external charger with a removable cable which might be vulnerable to theft.

Tesla try to make a virtue of a front boot. You'd be daft to store a cable in it because every Tesla charger has its own cable.

Do you think a car with three boots or four would be even more desirable?

Isn't it time you actually tried driving an electric car? It might improve your understanding of a modern driver's needs. ;)

regards

Howard

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6358
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1527 times
Been thanked: 958 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#403198

Postby odysseus2000 » April 10th, 2021, 2:47 pm

Ody

You are showing your ignorance. You obviously have never driven or charged an electric car.

Virtually all public chargers and certainly all fast public chargers have their own cables so a spare cable isn't needed. And, if you have a home charger most people leave the cable plugged in to the charger, or like me have a charger with its own cable. The only time a "loose" cable is needed in the car is if a driver has an external charger with a removable cable which might be vulnerable to theft.

Tesla try to make a virtue of a front boot. You'd be daft to store a cable in it because every Tesla charger has its own cable.

Do you think a car with three boots or four would be even more desirable?

Isn't it time you actually tried driving an electric car? It might improve your understanding of a modern driver's needs. ;)

regards

Howard


My comments were based on Munro's comparisons between his experience driving the 3 and his ID4 first video and also on the comments of Bjorn who also commented on the ID4 rear storage and made similar points about cables.

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#403208

Postby BobbyD » April 10th, 2021, 3:26 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
dealtnNo it isn't, else we would be seeing huge demand for lorries.

All that is required is sufficient space, not as much space as possible.


No, what punters want is as much useable space for their stuff as possible within the constraints of the vehicle size that they want. Sure if one could easily park a lorry and its fuel consumption was low then folk might prefer lorries, but these things are not true.

If you compared the Tesla 3 to the ID4, one finds that the ID4 has no frunk and that the charging cables in the ID4 are stowed right at the bottom of the already small rear boot space meaning that to charge the car one has to take out all the luggage to get to the cables. This is so inconvenient that most users of ID4 store the cables untidily on top of all their luggage.

Regards,


Your working is right, but you've come up with the wrong answer.

The Model 3 is 11cm longer than the ID.4, but the ID.4's bonnet is about 30 cm shorter than that of the model 3.

Thus the ID.4 has a larger full height cabin in a shorter car.

The ID.4 is far more efficiently packaged.

Furthermore by moving parts which are normally stored in the cabin in to the nose the ID.4's space advantage is furthered.

This is why the ID.4 earned 25 banana boxes from Tesla Bjorn, compared to the model 3's 17....

Hell the ID.3 scored 19 banana boxes!

Oh, and the cable comes stowed in a bag in a side pocket in the boot. The flat floor cover comes out, giving you another couple of inches of height in the boot if you need it, and under that as free extra space you get another deep storage area in which the toolbox is supplied. Not that useful for everyday use if the boot is full, but then who fills a car that size on a daily basis, but useable if for instance you are packing for one of those legendary BEV road trips...

The great irony is that Tesla whose adherents constantly accuse other manufacturers of thinking like ICE manufacturers having started life by putting batteries and motors in to an ICE car never thought to remove the engine space when designing a pure blood BEV. Embarrassing.

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6358
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1527 times
Been thanked: 958 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#403212

Postby odysseus2000 » April 10th, 2021, 3:38 pm

BobbyD
Your working is right, but you've come up with the wrong answer.

The Model 3 is 11cm longer than the ID.4, but the ID.4's bonnet is about 30 cm shorter than that of the model 3.

Thus the ID.4 has a larger full height cabin in a shorter car.

The ID.4 is far more efficiently packaged.

Furthermore by moving parts which are normally stored in the cabin in to the nose the ID.4's space advantage is furthered.

This is why the ID.4 earned 25 banana boxes from Tesla Bjorn, compared to the model 3's 17....

Hell the ID.3 scored 19 banana boxes!

Oh, and the cable comes stowed in a bag in a side pocket in the boot. The flat floor cover comes out, giving you another couple of inches of height in the boot if you need it, and under that as free extra space you get another deep storage area in which the toolbox is supplied. Not that useful for everyday use if the boot is full, but then who fills a car that size on a daily basis, but useable if for instance you are packing for one of those legendary BEV road trips...

The great irony is that Tesla whose adherents constantly accuse other manufacturers of thinking like ICE manufacturers having started life by putting batteries and motors in to an ICE car never thought to remove the engine space when designing a pure blood BEV. Embarrassing.


As far as I know most BEV owners, perhaps Howard could comment, do not use their BEV to move boxes of Banana.

Instead this drive themselves and/or passengers and like to have dedicated spaces like frunks to store their stuff, not have it all over the passenger compartment.

One might argue that the ID4 has the performance of a van and that is what folk want, but I have yet to see a single BEV being used as a van.

Regards,


Return to “Macro and Global Topics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests