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Musk endeavours

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dealtn
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Re: Musk endeavours

#410627

Postby dealtn » May 9th, 2021, 8:53 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
dealtn
I disagree "this" (presuming you mean investing) is mostly art with a little science.


If investing was mostly science then anyone who extensively studied the subject ought to be able to become a very successful investor.

In practice I do not see this which makes me think investing is more art than science.

Indeed I have met many who have extensively studied investing and who have not been able to translate that study into wealth, even though in many cases they have been very successful in business where there is clear cause and effect relationship with rules and where emotions and orthogonal events have minimal impact.

Regards,


Where did I say I thought it was "mostly science"?

I disagreed with your statement it was "mostly art with a little science".

If you think there is a binary set of choices with "mostly art with a little science" and "mostly science" as the only options that's a reflection on your reasoning, not mine.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#410640

Postby BobbyD » May 9th, 2021, 10:22 pm

How low can you go? Volkswagen throws down the emissions gauntlet

FRANKFURT – Volkswagen has softened its stance on tough new European carbon dioxide emissions targets for automakers, betting it can absorb more stringent cuts than its rivals, sources familiar with the matter have said.
The EU last month raised its target for cuts in net greenhouse gas emissions to 55% by 2030 from 1990 levels instead of 40% and Europe’s automakers will find out in July what their contribution on carbon dioxide emissions is expected to be.

Three sources said that Volkswagen, which owns car brands including Porsche, Audi, VW, Seat and Skoda, is quietly letting policymakers in Brussels know that it would support more ambitious cuts in emissions than other car manufacturers.

...Tensions over emissions cuts came to a head at a board meeting of the European Automobile Manufacturers Association (ACEA) in March, two people familiar with the matter said.

Several chief executives said they were concerned about the prospect of tougher EU standards, as they could blow a hole in profits from fossil-fuel engines that could not yet be plugged by electric vehicles, the two people said.
But Diess took a more upbeat view, saying his company’s EVs would achieve cost parity by the mid-2020s, a comment that raised eyebrows among fellow CEOs at the meeting including Renault’s Luca de Meo, one of the people said.

...At the moment, the European industry must deliver fleet-wide cuts in emissions of 37.5% by 2030 for new passenger cars from 2021 limits — equivalent to a reduction from 95 grams of carbon dioxide per kilometer this year to 59 g/km at the end of the decade.
One person familiar with the matter said the industry was now bracing for this target reduction to rise to at least 50% when the European Commission unveils its plans.

That could even rise to 55%, or more, as the legislation goes through the European parliament, the person said, potentially squeezing some of the weaker European players with lower pain points when it comes to emissions.



-https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2021/05/09/business/volkswagen-emissions-targets/ (Very slow paywall)

odysseus2000
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Re: Musk endeavours

#410643

Postby odysseus2000 » May 9th, 2021, 10:41 pm

dealtn
Where did I say I thought it was "mostly science"?

I disagreed with your statement it was "mostly art with a little science".

If you think there is a binary set of choices with "mostly art with a little science" and "mostly science" as the only options that's a reflection on your reasoning, not mine.


We can soon get lost in definitions of what is science and what is art.

For me science is reproducibility, take two events with the same starting conditions and one gets the same result. E.g. one measures a comet and predicts when it will return and it does as per the prediction. You predict again and again it returns as per the prediction.

For me art is about non-reproducibility, take two events with the same starting conditions and one gets widely different results and no one predicts them or in practice by luck someone does and for a brief moment they are acclaimed as a genius, but the next thing they predict is a long way off and confidence in their ability evaporates.

Take the EV1, the first production electric car made by GM. Some then predicted the end of ICE, but although the EV1 sold the powers that be decided it was a threat to the ICE industry and all EV1 were recalled and crushed.

Take the Tesla Roadster. Some predicted the end of ICE, most laughed and said it was another EV1, but it lead to Tesla as we now know it and to GM making the volt etc.

Two events with very similar starting conditions, but very different outcomes. One can argue that it was all science, that the EV1 with lead accumulators was too heavy and that the Roadster with lithium ion batteries had the right power to weight ratio, but if so why didn't legacy auto make lithium ion powered cars?

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Re: Musk endeavours

#410644

Postby odysseus2000 » May 9th, 2021, 10:43 pm

BobbyD wrote:
How low can you go? Volkswagen throws down the emissions gauntlet

FRANKFURT – Volkswagen has softened its stance on tough new European carbon dioxide emissions targets for automakers, betting it can absorb more stringent cuts than its rivals, sources familiar with the matter have said.
The EU last month raised its target for cuts in net greenhouse gas emissions to 55% by 2030 from 1990 levels instead of 40% and Europe’s automakers will find out in July what their contribution on carbon dioxide emissions is expected to be.

Three sources said that Volkswagen, which owns car brands including Porsche, Audi, VW, Seat and Skoda, is quietly letting policymakers in Brussels know that it would support more ambitious cuts in emissions than other car manufacturers.

...Tensions over emissions cuts came to a head at a board meeting of the European Automobile Manufacturers Association (ACEA) in March, two people familiar with the matter said.

Several chief executives said they were concerned about the prospect of tougher EU standards, as they could blow a hole in profits from fossil-fuel engines that could not yet be plugged by electric vehicles, the two people said.
But Diess took a more upbeat view, saying his company’s EVs would achieve cost parity by the mid-2020s, a comment that raised eyebrows among fellow CEOs at the meeting including Renault’s Luca de Meo, one of the people said.

...At the moment, the European industry must deliver fleet-wide cuts in emissions of 37.5% by 2030 for new passenger cars from 2021 limits — equivalent to a reduction from 95 grams of carbon dioxide per kilometer this year to 59 g/km at the end of the decade.
One person familiar with the matter said the industry was now bracing for this target reduction to rise to at least 50% when the European Commission unveils its plans.

That could even rise to 55%, or more, as the legislation goes through the European parliament, the person said, potentially squeezing some of the weaker European players with lower pain points when it comes to emissions.



-https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2021/05/09/business/volkswagen-emissions-targets/ (Very slow paywall)


If your competitors are in trouble, no point not taking the opportunity to make things even more difficult for them, especially when you have the stigma of Diesel Gate that needs to be buried asap.

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onthemove
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Re: Musk endeavours

#410645

Postby onthemove » May 9th, 2021, 10:50 pm

A few weeks ago I said this (amongst other things in the same post; https://lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=405466#p405466)...

onthemove wrote:I just don't believe that Tesla are anywhere as near perfecting it (or even just making it acceptable for a first generation) as quite a few people believe, ...


Just come across this article this evening...

"Elon Musk’s enthusiastic public claims about Tesla’s self-driving technology have been privately contradicted by the car company’s own employees, who told authorities that the billionaire’s comments do not “match engineering reality”. .... a Tesla director told the regulator that the company was some way away from being fully autonomous." https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/elon- ... 27162.html

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Re: Musk endeavours

#410646

Postby BobbyD » May 9th, 2021, 10:56 pm

onthemove wrote:
"Elon Musk’s enthusiastic public claims about Tesla’s self-driving technology have been privately contradicted by the car company’s own employees, who told authorities that the billionaire’s comments do not “match engineering reality”. .... a Tesla director told the regulator that the company was some way away from being fully autonomous." https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/elon- ... 27162.html


That's the second batch of declarations they've made to regulators recently which contradict Elon's 'confidence' in FSD delivery timeframe. There's a quote flying around where they pretty much couch it in those terms as well.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#410649

Postby Howard » May 9th, 2021, 11:22 pm

Tesla is losing source of revenue that has been key to profits

"Tesla is about to lose one source of the regulatory-credit revenue that has been crucial to its almost two-year run of consecutive quarterly profits.

Stellantis, the automaker formed through the merger of PSA Group and Fiat Chrysler, said on Wednesday that it is exiting a European emissions-credit agreement with Tesla.

Complying with standards on its own will save the company about 300 million euros ($360 million), roughly two-thirds of which would have gone to Tesla, Stellantis Chief Financial Officer Richard Palmer said."


regards

Howard

https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/ ... ey-profits

onthemove
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Re: Musk endeavours

#410651

Postby onthemove » May 10th, 2021, 12:08 am

BobbyD wrote:
onthemove wrote:
"Elon Musk’s enthusiastic public claims about Tesla’s self-driving technology have been privately contradicted by the car company’s own employees, who told authorities that the billionaire’s comments do not “match engineering reality”. .... a Tesla director told the regulator that the company was some way away from being fully autonomous." https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/elon- ... 27162.html


That's the second batch of declarations they've made to regulators recently which contradict Elon's 'confidence' in FSD delivery timeframe. There's a quote flying around where they pretty much couch it in those terms as well.



I notice in the referenced documents it says...

" Elon’s tweet does not match engineering reality per CJ.Tesla is at Level 2 currently. The ratio of driver interaction would need to be in the magnitude of 1 or 2 million miles per driver interaction to move into higher levels of automation." https://www.plainsite.org/documents/28j ... fsd-notes/

(For some reason the first sentence is white-on-white in the original, but if you select the invisible text and copy it into notepad, you can see what it says for yourself).

So since it's been a couple of months now since I last watched a Tesla driver video, I've just specifically searched out a couple of newer ones..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKG3eDp ... el=AIDRIVR

Hmmm... disengagement already @2:09 into the video. And again @4:31.

Either he was very unlucky, or it seems to me they are still some way from "1 or 2 million miles per driver interaction".

And the UK version seems somewhat worse...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqlVbFM ... eslaDriver
"But it gets a little confused, it aborted, and sadly that is where we're still at ... to be honest, that's actually why I haven't done that many videos, there's not much more for me to show you"


Don't get me wrong... some of the things the FSD (at least US version) seems to achieve are very, very impressive. It's just for me, I have two major concerns...

(1) the number of driver interactions is still far too high... while there are a lot of things that it handles very, very well and is technically very, very impressive, there are also too many things it can't handle yet. And it is those where I suspect Elon is perhaps significantly underestimating the work remaining (though it sounds like some of the Tesla engineers internally seem to recognise the engineering reality!). But you can't have FSD without them all!

(2) the Tesla visualisations are still way too unstable. The Tesla visualisations of things around it are still jumping around far too much. There is just too much positional uncertainty in what the vision system is detecting. And when that is your main means of input, that is a BIG problem - when cars 'jump' a few feet from one screen refresh to the next - and I don't mean in the direction of travel; even stationary cars jump around - that is going to give the higher level planning algorithms a hard time to deal with; it's no wonder the Tesla FSD algorithm seems a lot more twitchy and changing its mind vs the Waymo taxis.

What I'm not sure is whether it's a case that Tesla are just being honest, and giving the raw view, and that perhaps Waymo are just stabilising the visualisation in order to reassure passengers (but internally it's just as jumpy)...

... or whether they're both giving the raw view, and the stability of the visualisation of what's around the Waymo taxis is down to the actual input system - that's to say, including the lidar - meaning that the Waymo cars really are getting a much better, far more accurate and stable model of the 3d world around them.

I'm leaning towards the latter, because clearly lidar is specifically designed to measure distance, and not only that, it takes many repeated measurements with its point cloud, so it doesn't just have one measurement to a target, it has multiple, so can constantly be averaging. When the waymo visualisation shows the periodic 'point cloud sweep' , it does look pretty clear and stable; you can recognise yourself what the things are and see where they are, so on balance, if I had to bet, I'd bet that Waymo really are getting far more stable inputs - particularly regards the position of things around the vehicle. Which is clearly going to help build a more stable, confident higher level driving system.

Like I said in my post a few weeks ago... are Teslas foundations strong enough to get it the final distance to FSD? I'm not so sure.

I mean, look at it this way... watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKG3eDp ... el=AIDRIVR @1:57 (just before he disengages it) and watch the vehicles waiting at the lights in the visualisation... if you were relying on that visualisation to drive (imagine you couldn't see out of the windscreen yourself, and that's all you had)...

...the way the cars waiting at the lights seem to be lurching forwards and backwards a couple of feet at a time (when in reality they are stationary), would have me really jumpy thinking that were potentially setting off! If you're passing a car waiting to join from a side road, and were to see it jump about like that, as a driver you'd be on a knife edge whether you'd need to take evasive action (brake or swerve).

But what you're seeing in the visualisation is what the Tesla FSD is using to drive - that is its world view! As a driver, would you be confident driving if that visualisation was your only view of what's around the vehicle? Would you be confident that you could do your daily commute, day in, day out, and have the same or fewer number of accidents vs driving while being able to see for yourself through the windscreen?

I can't help thinking that Tesla are perhaps having to 'damp down' the inputs (average them out quite a bit, to iron out the noise) in their FSD algorithm. But if they are, then potentially the car isn't going to be able to react as quickly and decisively when someone really does pull out in front of the vehicle! (It'll need to give it a second or two to realise that the car is pulling out for real!)

I wouldn't be surprised if many drivers who bought the "FSD" upgrade, end up never receiving it while they still own and use their vehicle. Or at least, not receiving any update that lets them take their hands off the wheel and sit in the back with "no one up front" (to quote the Waymo greeting)

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Re: Musk endeavours

#410654

Postby BobbyD » May 10th, 2021, 12:47 am

onthemove wrote:I notice in the referenced documents it says...

" Elon’s tweet does not match engineering reality per CJ.Tesla is at Level 2 currently. The ratio of driver interaction would need to be in the magnitude of 1 or 2 million miles per driver interaction to move into higher levels of automation." https://www.plainsite.org/documents/28j ... fsd-notes/


That's the one.

onthemove wrote:
So since it's been a couple of months now since I last watched a Tesla driver video, I've just specifically searched out a couple of newer ones..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKG3eDp ... el=AIDRIVR

Hmmm... disengagement already @2:09 into the video. And again @4:31.

Either he was very unlucky, or it seems to me they are still some way from "1 or 2 million miles per driver interaction".

And the UK version seems somewhat worse...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqlVbFM ... eslaDriver
"But it gets a little confused, it aborted, and sadly that is where we're still at ... to be honest, that's actually why I haven't done that many videos, there's not much more for me to show you"


Yeah, and remember youtube clips generally aren't representative. In this case we know there is less evidence of failure because the videomaker didn't see the point or the reward in recording it. Most people who've spent $50k on a car probably aren't dying to post footage of it failing to perform on the internet ...and where road safety is concerned it is the worst case performance which is of interest, not the best case performance.

onthemove wrote:Like I said in my post a few weeks ago... are Teslas foundations strong enough to get it the final distance to FSD? I'm not so sure.


Personally I think Tesla have adopted the worst possible approach to autonomous in each and every way, as I've expounded on at length previously in this thread. I think progressing from a precocious cruise control to a fully autonomous system by bolting on new functionality rather than designing an autonomous system from the get go and then expanding its area of operation is a very bad decision. I think their decision to limit the sensor suite so severely is not only foolish, but the grounds that LIDAR was too expensive was obviously going to fall by the way side as volume and R&D bought down prices, I think they have put far too much emphasis on black box operations whilst actively ignoring the need for regulatory auditing, and I think releasing developmental software on to public roads was an act of gross irresponsibility. Ultimately could this approach result in a workable level 5 system? Maybe, but I would be very surprised if it were the first, the best or capable of gaining regulatory acceptance.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#410716

Postby odysseus2000 » May 10th, 2021, 10:32 am

The beauty of the current situation with Tesla and FSD is that there is very little FSD in the equity price.

If FSD never works Tesla is still growing very rapidly with the best technology, the best future plans and a human emotional connection that is absent with all other auto makers and the share price reflects this.

Whether FSD will will work is unknowable. From a technical perspective having several cameras with super human capabilities and a suitable neural net potentially leads to super human driving performance unless there is something fundamentally different between a human mind and a neural net. This was argued a lot at one time with statements that computation would never be able to beat the human brain. That issue was settled with chess where computation became world champion and then came the extraordinary event when Alpha-zero with 4 hours of self training easily defeated the computational approach.

To reverse the question, what reasons are there that will stop cars equipped with cameras and a neural net from driving themselves in a much safer manner than humans?

It seems unlikely that an impediment will come from failure of the cameras although accidental deposition of some opaque material onto the cameras during operation would be a way to shut the car down. How the systems will function with rain, sleet, snow and fog will need to be demonstrated safe.

The available software matrix and associated software that are used in the neural nets may prove to be too limited as fashioned and prove to be impossible to upgrade while maintaining an acceptable level of power consumption.

Auto labelling and identification of hazards may not work with there being too many possible real world observations that can confuse the neural net. This seems unlikely given that there are finite possibilities and that Tesla neural nets can learn from billions of miles of recorded driving.

False negatives that lead to unwanted braking may prove to be a noise source that can not be eliminated and similarly for false positives.

There may be other fundamental limits that make camera plus neural net incapable of driving better than humans.

However, there may not be and it would not surprise me if fixes to all the current issues emerge.

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#410742

Postby TUK020 » May 10th, 2021, 12:05 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:If FSD never works Tesla is still growing very rapidly with the best technology, the best future plans and a human emotional connection that is absent with all other auto makers and the share price reflects this.

Talking of emotional connections, how do you think lots of Tesla buyers, who may consider that they have been sold a story of upgradeability to FSD, will feel if FSD turns out to be not possible on the hardware they invested in?
And given that most of these buyers are in the States, what do you think the size of the class action lawsuit that would result?
Does Elon think he will be safely on Mars before this one hits the fan?

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Re: Musk endeavours

#410743

Postby murraypaul » May 10th, 2021, 12:06 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:The beauty of the current situation with Tesla and FSD is that there is very little FSD in the equity price.

If FSD never works Tesla is still growing very rapidly with the best technology, the best future plans and a human emotional connection that is absent with all other auto makers and the share price reflects this.

Whether FSD will will work is unknowable.


So how do you feel about them promising that it will work, and charging people $10k for it up-front? (Non-refundable, non-transferable)

Image

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Re: Musk endeavours

#410761

Postby odysseus2000 » May 10th, 2021, 1:25 pm

TUK020
Talking of emotional connections, how do you think lots of Tesla buyers, who may consider that they have been sold a story of upgradeability to FSD, will feel if FSD turns out to be not possible on the hardware they invested in?
And given that most of these buyers are in the States, what do you think the size of the class action lawsuit that would result?
Does Elon think he will be safely on Mars before this one hits the fan?


MurrayPaul
So how do you feel about them promising that it will work, and charging people $10k for it up-front? (Non-refundable, non-transferable)

r
FSD illustrates the huge emotional connection between buyers and Tesla corporation.

If Tesla lawyers have done a good job on the contracts then it will be difficult for any legal action to progress with a good chance of success albeit within the lottery of any litigation which makes prediction not worth the trouble to make.

One can easily get to feeling that Tesla is a shady company, but enough people keep buying their product and love the CEO.

All of these concerns go away if FSD does work and I would not rule this out. However, if FSD does not work I do not expect it will hurt the equity due to the strong emotional connection between many owners and Tesla. IMHO only Apple has a similar bond between the corporation and its users and I don't think one should apply the normal punter-supplier relationships when analysing Tesla.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#410774

Postby Howard » May 10th, 2021, 2:24 pm

Using Ody's nomenclature and knowing a bit how the software and hardware has been put together should FSD be renamed?

Frankenstein Self Driving.

:evil:

regards

Howard

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Re: Musk endeavours

#410778

Postby odysseus2000 » May 10th, 2021, 2:35 pm

Howard wrote:Using Ody's nomenclature and knowing a bit how the software and hardware has been put together should FSD be renamed?

Frankenstein Self Driving.

:evil:

regards

Howard


Frankenstein in the trade usually refers to mixing old stuff with new.

There is no old stuff in the Tesla self driving system.

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#410779

Postby onthemove » May 10th, 2021, 2:37 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:All of these concerns go away if FSD does work and I would not rule this out. However, if FSD does not work I do not expect it will hurt the equity due to the strong emotional connection between many owners and Tesla. IMHO only Apple has a similar bond between the corporation and its users and I don't think one should apply the normal punter-supplier relationships when analysing Tesla.

Regards,


Maybe I'm biased, but the impression I have is that the 'strong emotional connection' that people have with Tesla comes about almost exclusively from the (perceived) promise of your car being able to drive itself, if not today, at least sometime (supposedly) in the near future.

If Elon / Tesla were to announce they're scrapping self driving, I'd be very surprised if Tesla retained much of a following at all. If you just want a car, I suspect most people would feel more comfortable buying from an established manufacturer.

Tesla isn't Ferrari or Porsche or Rolls Royce.

People buy a Porsche or Ferrari or Rolls Royce, etc, to brag to their mates they've got a Porsche or Ferrari or Rolls Royce, for their status.

Tesla doesn't have that sort of status. People buy a Tesla so that they can brag to their mates that they have a self driving car. I haven't seen many (any) Tesla videos on youtube that say, "you know what, I'm not interested in self driving stuff, let me show off the non-self driving parts".

The promise of having a self driving car of your own is driving Tesla sales. No other car manufacturer is making the kinds of promises that Tesla is making to the people buying their cars *today*.

As for the comparison with Apple, I'm afraid I just don't see it at all. Apple was (arguable whether it still is) about design and aesthetics. While Tesla may be unconventional, neither the external nor internal design are really anything to write home about other than being different. When watching Tesla videos, I certainly don't feel envious of the design environment in the cars!

Mind you, I've just googled, and it would appear a number of people disagree with me on this point. Me and them, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I mean, lets be really honest here... all the interest in Tesla, all the praise over its computer systems, is because people are being let to believe they are looking at the future in the here and now. That this is Kit from 'Knight Rider' for real, with computers so advanced the car will be able to drive itself. Who wouldn't be captivated by the idea. It's exciting, that's why I'm here conversing with you guys about it.

But take away that futuristic, exciting promise of self driving, take away the idea that your car could do the mundane driving on your commute while you have a nap, and I would not be interested at all.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#410781

Postby BobbyD » May 10th, 2021, 2:44 pm

Howard wrote:Using Ody's nomenclature and knowing a bit how the software and hardware has been put together should FSD be renamed?

Frankenstein Self Driving.

:evil:

regards

Howard


I've sussed it. Once you see it it so obvious. Tesla's FSD refers to the driver not the car. It's a car in which you fully and completely drive your self! Code complete.

Surprised to hear that the thing that Elon declares Tesla's future depends on everytime his latest machine which builds the machine tilt doesn't pay off is hardly represented in Tesla's very modest $0.6 trillion market cap though, I'd love to see how he allocates market cap between the loss making energy business and the loss making car business, possibly with valuations for the perpetually delayed Roadster, Semi, CT, Plaid, Giga...

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Re: Musk endeavours

#410798

Postby odysseus2000 » May 10th, 2021, 3:29 pm

onthemove
People buy a Porsche or Ferrari or Rolls Royce, etc, to brag to their mates they've got a Porsche or Ferrari or Rolls Royce, for their status.

Tesla doesn't have that sort of status. People buy a Tesla so that they can brag to their mates that they have a self driving car. I haven't seen many (any) Tesla videos on youtube that say, "you know what, I'm not interested in self driving stuff, let me show off the non-self driving parts".


I can't find out what % of Tesla buyers pay the $10k for FSD, but I doubt it is anywhere near 100%.

I would also disagree that a Tesla has no status.

Folk buy Tesla because they are BEV, because of Elon Musk, because they are cool and because the running costs are a lot less than an ICE engine.

Folk once bought Porsche, Ferrari and Rolls Royce as status symbols but they are now so 20th century that that status is ebbing away quickly.

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#410801

Postby murraypaul » May 10th, 2021, 3:36 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:FSD illustrates the huge emotional connection between buyers and Tesla corporation.

If Tesla lawyers have done a good job on the contracts then it will be difficult for any legal action to progress with a good chance of success albeit within the lottery of any litigation which makes prediction not worth the trouble to make.

One can easily get to feeling that Tesla is a shady company, but enough people keep buying their product and love the CEO.

All of these concerns go away if FSD does work and I would not rule this out. However, if FSD does not work I do not expect it will hurt the equity due to the strong emotional connection between many owners and Tesla.


You don't think the 'strong emotional connection' would be at all affected by being charged $10k for something that was promised never actually delivered?

It is a car manufacturer. I think you are vastly overestimating how much an 'emotional connection' matters.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#410808

Postby BobbyD » May 10th, 2021, 4:31 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Folk once bought Porsche, Ferrari and Rolls Royce as status symbols but they are now so 20th century that that status is ebbing away quickly.


Porsche, commonly held to be producer of the best BEV available, Q1 biggest in company's history by mere 13.4%. Suffering!

- https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2021/co ... 24186.html


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