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Musk endeavours

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BobbyD
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Re: Musk endeavours

#204567

Postby BobbyD » February 28th, 2019, 2:05 pm

Shareholders of Maxwell, the energy-storage company that Tesla recently announced plans to acquire, are suing to try to block the $218 million deal.

In a class-action lawsuit filed Tuesday in a California federal court, Kip Leggett, who bought 1,000 shares at $17.23 a piece, argues the deal "significantly undervalues" the company.

"The Board rushed through an inadequate 'sales process' in which the only end goal was a sale to Tesla," the suit said. "And in proper fiduciary measures such as a special committee and market were undertaken only after Tesla had made several bids and had threatened to end its customer relationship with Maxwell should the Company not accept its offer to purchase it."

The suit also accuses Maxwell board members of seeking "significant and immediate benefits" for themselves.


- https://www.businessinsider.com/maxwell ... ?r=US&IR=T

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204570

Postby odysseus2000 » February 28th, 2019, 2:11 pm

BobbyD wrote:
Shareholders of Maxwell, the energy-storage company that Tesla recently announced plans to acquire, are suing to try to block the $218 million deal.

In a class-action lawsuit filed Tuesday in a California federal court, Kip Leggett, who bought 1,000 shares at $17.23 a piece, argues the deal "significantly undervalues" the company.

"The Board rushed through an inadequate 'sales process' in which the only end goal was a sale to Tesla," the suit said. "And in proper fiduciary measures such as a special committee and market were undertaken only after Tesla had made several bids and had threatened to end its customer relationship with Maxwell should the Company not accept its offer to purchase it."

The suit also accuses Maxwell board members of seeking "significant and immediate benefits" for themselves.


- https://www.businessinsider.com/maxwell ... ?r=US&IR=T


Yes, but I doubt this has any chance.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204729

Postby BobbyD » March 1st, 2019, 9:19 am

So not much happening here then...

- Tesla unlikely to be profitable Q1 - https://electrek.co/2019/02/28/tsla-musk-shares/

- Tesla to pay $920 million in cash to settle convertible bonds - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... llion-bond

- Tesla launches $35k, 220 mile range 0-60 5.6 seconds model 3, and is closing down all it's stores to pay for it, whilst also making some pretty savage cuts to the price tags of S and X models ($16,000 off top of the range for both) - https://www.tesla.com/blog/35000-Tesla- ... ilable-now - https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/28/tesla ... -vehicles/

Imagine discovering the day after you take delivery of your brand new shiny Model S that your next door neighbour just ordered exactly the same spec piece of overpriced executive wangdangery for $16k less. Ouch...

Oh , and Tesla are offering a 7 day 1000 mile no fault return for full refund - https://www.tesla.com/blog/35000-Tesla- ... ilable-now

...and they are selling two levels of Autonomous neither of which is actually autonomous but one of which costs more - https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/28/1824 ... -musk-2019


It could just be me, but that makes it look rather like Tesla has picked all the low hanging fruit.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204730

Postby dspp » March 1st, 2019, 9:21 am

As a radical move I am posting the announcement last night as made by Tesla itself:
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/35000- ... edirect=no

"$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now
The Tesla Team 28 February 2019
We are incredibly excited to announce that the standard Model 3, with 220 miles of range, a top speed of 130 mph and 0-60 mph acceleration of 5.6 seconds is now available at $35,000! Although lower in cost, it is built to achieve the same perfect 5-star safety rating as the longer-ranged version, which has the lowest probability of injury of any car ever tested by the U.S. Government.

In addition, we are introducing the Model 3 Standard Range Plus, which offers 240 miles of range, a top speed of 140 mph, 0-60 mph acceleration of just 5.3 seconds and most premium interior features at $37,000 before incentives. For 6% more money, you get 9% more range, more power, and an upgraded interior.

To achieve these prices while remaining financially sustainable, Tesla is shifting sales worldwide to online only. You can now buy a Tesla in North America via your phone in about 1 minute, and that capability will soon be extended worldwide. We are also making it much easier to try out and return a Tesla, so that a test drive prior to purchase isn’t needed. You can now return a car within 7 days or 1,000 miles for a full refund. Quite literally, you could buy a Tesla, drive several hundred miles for a weekend road trip with friends and then return it for free. With the highest consumer satisfaction score of any car on the road, we are confident you will want to keep your Tesla.

Shifting all sales online, combined with other ongoing cost efficiencies, will enable us to lower all vehicle prices by about 6% on average, allowing us to achieve the $35,000 Model 3 price point earlier than we expected. Over the next few months, we will be winding down many of our stores, with a small number of stores in high-traffic locations remaining as galleries, showcases and Tesla information centers. The important thing for customers in the United States to understand is that, with online sales, anyone in any state can quickly and easily buy a Tesla.

At the same time, we will be increasing our investment in the Tesla service system, with the goal of same-day, if not same-hour service, and with most service done by us coming to you, rather than you coming to us. Moreover, we guarantee service availability anywhere in any country in which we operate.

We’re also excited to announce that we’re implementing a number of firmware upgrades for both new and existing customers. These upgrades will increase the range of the Long Range Rear-Wheel Drive Model 3 to 325 miles, increase the top speed of Model 3 Performance to 162 mph, and add an average of approximately 5% peak power to all Model 3 vehicles."


My suspicion is that they'll keep the high-end storefronts open, which likely includes most of the non-USA ones. Apart from that shifting on line doesn't bug me that much - just as if I want to know what a BMW or Ford is like I can ask my friends, so too can I ask folk I know who have Teslas. And as a driver of a £50 VW Golf I am a long way from a typical Tesla buyer so if even I can find friends with Teslas, then a typical Tesla buyer certainly can. They'll need to find the right balance for those storefronts, but I expect they'll get there.

Getting the entry level product out at $35k is fantastic news imho. It means that the pace is being forced on the competition. It is exactly the right tactics to be deploying if you have a early mover advantage.

I really don't know any other product where an existing hardware owner can wake up in the morning and be given, for free, improved performance. Good effort, and they keep on doing it. That is earning customer loyalty.

There are other rumours out there that Tesla has pretty much ended Solar City for PV. If true, that's fantastic as it was a seriously bad decision to go anywhere near PV for Tesla. I fully support the storage move, but PV at this time is not a good place for Tesla to be in.

Somewhere (CNBC ? ) there was a Musk interview last night where he hinted at a Q1 loss. Not unexpected imho.

There is a heck of a lot of risk still everywhere for Tesla so all is not rosy.

regards, dspp

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204731

Postby dspp » March 1st, 2019, 9:23 am

BD,
Same news, two very different takes on it, 5-secs apart. This really is a marmite share isn't it :)
regards,
dspp

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204735

Postby odysseus2000 » March 1st, 2019, 9:29 am

The new standard Tesla:

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/35000- ... edirect=no

is being generally slated as too little range at 220 miles.

By contrast the best selling 2018 battery electric car in Europe is the Nissan leaf, £26,690 ($35360) range 168 miles https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-v ... _simulator

Will the standard model 3 sell?

Depends on who you are and where you live. If you do high mileage, are not organised and live somewhere where there are good high speed roads which you use, then not likely. If you do low mileage, are organised and don’t have good high speed roads then more likely imho.

So I can’t see these selling well in Texas, but in somewhere like California, Florida or Europe then maybe.

Another argument doing the rounds is that price cuts mean Tesla cars are not selling. This was the same argument used when Henry Ford cut the price of his Model T, but he then sold a lot more and was famously challenged by the Dodge brothers for selling too cheaply, but instead he was just making the cars more efficiently and maintaining margins.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204744

Postby BobbyD » March 1st, 2019, 9:49 am

dspp wrote:BD,
Same news, two very different takes on it, 5-secs apart. This really is a marmite share isn't it :)
regards,
dspp


I was waiting to post, thinking that the identity of the first poster might give an interesting indicator of how this news is perceived...

I think we have common ground, Musk profit warning probably not good for the company and not all rosy for example...

They talk about converting a handful of stores to galleries and information centres, and that the closures are necessary to allow them to drop the model 3 price. It sounds like they are specifically committing to closing the entire store operation.

I'm also not convinced that a typical punter is going to spend $70,000 on a car they have never driven... Fan-boys fair enough, but that's the low hanging fruit I mentioned earlier, and remember it's a lot easier to know somebody who drives a ~BMW or a Merc or a... because there are a lot more of them around, and the consumer journalism about them is a lot more revealing because there are a lot more of them around.... (outside California obvs)... I know more Lotus drivers than I know Tesla drivers, which is to say 1 which is more than 0...

Getting the entry level down to $35k is what I think they should have been concentrating on 5 and 6 years ago rather than messing around with AP, continuous updates etc. Now I think that rather than being a sign they can build a decent product and sell it en masse for profit and develop in to a going concern as a big producer its a sign that they aren't confident about the uptake at higher prices. Look at the sacrifices being made to pull it off, and hear the sound of stampede getting louder from behind yonder hill.

odysseus2000 wrote:By contrast the best selling 2018 battery electric car in Europe is the Nissan leaf, £26,690 ($35360) range 168 miles https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-v ... _simulator

Will the standard model 3 sell?


I'll see your leaf and raise you a premonition of the £22,500 (aprox $30k) 205 mile VW ID out later this year.

odysseus2000 wrote:Another argument doing the rounds is that price cuts mean Tesla cars are not selling. This was the same argument used when Henry Ford cut the price of his Model T, but he then sold a lot more and was famously challenged by the Dodge brothers for selling too cheaply, but instead he was just making the cars more efficiently and maintaining margins.


The problem is efficient manufacture is Tesla's Achilles heal, not their strong point, whereas their keenest competitors are champion bolt-it-togetherers with experience, extensive supply relationships, and lots of factories.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204747

Postby Howard » March 1st, 2019, 10:07 am

odysseus2000 wrote:
Another argument doing the rounds is that price cuts mean Tesla cars are not selling. This was the same argument used when Henry Ford cut the price of his Model T, but he then sold a lot more and was famously challenged by the Dodge brothers for selling too cheaply, but instead he was just making the cars more efficiently and maintaining margins.

Regards,


We won't have to wait too long to see whether this is true. The facts will emerge when Q1 sales and profit figures are available. It is quite likely that Model 3 actual sales will be disappointing and S and X sales will have dropped significantly.

This may explain the dramatic cuts to prices and Sales Centres. From a marketing viewpoint selling high value products which keep reducing in price doesn't seem too clever. A bit different from Apple's strategy. Will Tesla fanatics who bought last month be delighted that new customers are getting a cheaper deal? Rich Californians probably won't care but second hand values may be affected in the next couple of years.

Shareholders are likely to be in for an interesting ride.

regards

Howard

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204749

Postby dspp » March 1st, 2019, 10:11 am

BobbyD wrote:
They talk about converting a handful of stores to galleries and information centres, and that the closures are necessary to allow them to drop the model 3 price. It sounds like they are specifically committing to closing the entire store operation.

I'm also not convinced that a typical punter is going to spend $70,000 on a car they have never driven... Fan-boys fair enough, but that's the low hanging fruit I mentioned earlier, and remember it's a lot easier to know somebody who drives a ~BMW or a Merc or a... because there are a lot more of them around, and the consumer journalism about them is a lot more revealing because there are a lot more of them around.... (outside California obvs)... I know more Lotus drivers than I know Tesla drivers, which is to say 1 which is more than 0...

Getting the entry level down to $35k is what I think they should have been concentrating on 5 and 6 years ago rather than messing around with AP, continuous updates etc. Now I think that rather than being a sign they can build a decent product and sell it en masse for profit and develop in to a going concern as a big producer its a sign that they aren't confident about the uptake at higher prices. Look at the sacrifices being made to pull it off, and hear the sound of stampede getting louder from behind yonder hill.



1. My understanding and my observation in my travels is that what we see in Europe, or for that matter in China, are the flagship 'galleries'. What I think they will be doing are getting rid of the low-end storefronts that are in the US but keeping the corresponding galleries in the US. It sounds to me as if they have found that 80% of the client acquisition is done through network effect, maybe 15% through galleries (and that these are where prospective purchasers go for confirmation if they don't know someone with a Tesla), and that the 5% is not worth the cost. Just my SWAG numbers of course.

2. I think you'll still have the galleries to go to, though I may be wrong, i.e. your touchability will be unchanged in UK/Europe/China. Maybe the Yanks will get less touchability.

3. No, I am cool in this instance with the work-downwards pathway. However I am as alert as you are to the competition coming. Mind you it sounds like 2020 before the VW ID Neo will be available in meaningful volume, and that's the product that looks most competitive vs the T3. Not one to be dismissed lightly.

regards, dspp

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204774

Postby BobbyD » March 1st, 2019, 10:59 am

Howard wrote:Shareholders are likely to be in for an interesting ride.


I sort of assumed that like any other rollercoaster that was the major point of holding TSLA...


dspp wrote:1. My understanding and my observation in my travels is that what we see in Europe, or for that matter in China, are the flagship 'galleries'. What I think they will be doing are getting rid of the low-end storefronts that are in the US but keeping the corresponding galleries in the US. It sounds to me as if they have found that 80% of the client acquisition is done through network effect, maybe 15% through galleries (and that these are where prospective purchasers go for confirmation if they don't know someone with a Tesla), and that the 5% is not worth the cost. Just my SWAG numbers of course.

2. I think you'll still have the galleries to go to, though I may be wrong, i.e. your touchability will be unchanged in UK/Europe/China. Maybe the Yanks will get less touchability.

3. No, I am cool in this instance with the work-downwards pathway. However I am as alert as you are to the competition coming. Mind you it sounds like 2020 before the VW ID Neo will be available in meaningful volume, and that's the product that looks most competitive vs the T3. Not one to be dismissed lightly.

regards, dspp


1. It's their phrasing rather than your logic which makes me doubt this.

To achieve these prices while remaining financially sustainable, Tesla is shifting sales worldwide to online only. You can now buy a Tesla in North America via your phone in about 1 minute, and that capability will soon be extended worldwide. We are also making it much easier to try out and return a Tesla, so that a test drive prior to purchase isn’t needed. You can now return a car within 7 days or 1,000 miles for a full refund. Quite literally, you could buy a Tesla, drive several hundred miles for a weekend road trip with friends and then return it for free. With the highest consumer satisfaction score of any car on the road, we are confident you will want to keep your Tesla.


It looks like a full switch to sale or return, also leaking some cars out of new and in to the slightly used and therefor sell able at a further discount pile.

2. Never bought a car, not quite sure how important 'touchability is' I'd be more interested in 'movability' personally, but I may not be typical...

3. I believe the Neo will be sold as the ID3, with 2 smaller cars being sold as the ID 1&2, and bigger cars filling out ID 4-9. Although ID Neo does sound a bit better. It will come with 3 ranges the lower of which is in the same ballpark as the $35k model 3. I think it is close enough to the model 3 to do it damage, particularly if model 3 does turn out to have reliability problems under mass production. As Ody is often to keen to point out existence may disrupt sales before presence. If VW can do this well and without bankrupting the company I thing the ID3 might actually become the car Musk envisioned the model 3 being in terms of EV acceptance.

My problem with the work downwards pathway is that they aren't already 80% the way down it, which I think would have made them far more resilient than they currently are. They had a lead which they could have spent building foundations, making themselves robust, improving their weaknesses knowing that others would in a few years time set out to match their strengths, turning themselves in to the company they now obviously need to be to survive. I think they squandered that lead and it is likely to cost them, and they are now taking the on ramp to the downwards pathway not for long term strategic reasons but because in the short term if they don't they risk not selling enough cars to keep the factory lights on.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204797

Postby tjh290633 » March 1st, 2019, 12:10 pm

My take on this is that currently electric cars are like milk floats, best bought if you never go far from home. Charge at home overnight and keep or hire a proper car if you need to take a long journey.

That is why the Leaf is popular here, it's use is as a local runabout.

TJH

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204802

Postby odysseus2000 » March 1st, 2019, 12:32 pm

tjh290633 wrote:My take on this is that currently electric cars are like milk floats, best bought if you never go far from home. Charge at home overnight and keep or hire a proper car if you need to take a long journey.

That is why the Leaf is popular here, it's use is as a local runabout.

TJH


0 to 60 in under 6 seconds, top speed over 120 mph, range over 200 miles.

Some milk float!

Meanwhile, no having to queue for gas, no gear box, no emissions, no exhaust, no congestion tax, much reduced service costs, brake pads last Life of car, over the air updates, come to you for service...

I am not going to buy one, but do I think it is a potentially attractive package? Yes.

Do I think politicians will make hydro carbon cars un-attractive? Yes

Who do I think will be the biggest competitor? Chinese maker, perhaps Nio.

Do I expect prices to continue to fall. Yes.

Do I expect VW to make a good competitor at the same margins. No, I don't believe they can get the batteries cheap enough & meanwhile I expect all legacy auto to suffer from serious sales declines of hydrocarbon & hybrid cars suggesting they will be caught with cash flow problems: incoming cash declining, development cash demands steeply up.

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204807

Postby Howard » March 1st, 2019, 12:52 pm

I’m trying to work out the implications of the latest Tesla move. So the Model 3 will be available in black only with basic trim and battery range for $35,000 in the USA. To get a “normal” non-cheapskate model in a decent colour with one or two basic additions will cost around $40,000.

After the latest price cuts across the range, every European and Chinese customer whose Model 3, S or X has just been delivered or is on the boat must secretly be feeling a bit of a wally because if they had only waited a few weeks they could have got the same car thousands cheaper. If the car hasn’t been delivered, won’t they be tempted to cancel their order and re-specify if they can?

The number of models Tesla is now producing has increased. I think there are at least six major versions of the Model 3, obviously with many other options of trim etc available. This will increase manufacturing costs. And the cost of holding inventory will increase further.

In addition potential customers can now test drive a brand new car and return it within a week or a thousand miles and get a 100% refund. I doubt if this policy will cause a huge number of returns, but it will increase the number of nearly new cars available at a discount. These cars will actually have cost Tesla more to produce because of the extra administration but will have to be sold at a lower price!

Getting rid of the Sales centres may not be such a bad idea because they may not have added much value. Buying a car off the internet isn’t a big deal if you know what you want. However a lot of potential buyers may want a test drive before purchasing. I can’t see the average buyer paying cash up front for a car they haven’t tested or seen in the “flesh” in a showroom.

Elon Musk may be helping competitors by changing everything and giving them a chance to catch up. (And making big losses for Tesla in the meantime!)

regards

Howard

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204810

Postby dspp » March 1st, 2019, 1:04 pm

It looks to me as if they have evolved to where each model (S, X, 3) has six basic build options:

- long range battery
- medium range battery
- short range battery

x

- 2 wheel drive
- 4 wheel drive

That is all the six basic options are, and then in addition you add in all the trim options, paint options, and autonomy options which are pretty much as any other auto maker gives you.

All in all it looks as if they are keeping the manufacturing & marketing complexity under control. This is pretty standard auto OEM combinatorial explosion stuff.

As to the reduction in price causing grief to existing owners: I don't think so. This is a auto company that stated years ago they planned to release a $35,000 model 3. And whadda you know, they've done it. Not exactly a cunningly disguised secret plan was it.

regards, dspp

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204811

Postby BobbyD » March 1st, 2019, 1:15 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Do I expect VW to make a good competitor at the same margins. No


Your probably right, VW will probably make there's with a positive margin...

Howard wrote:After the latest price cuts across the range, every European and Chinese customer whose Model 3, S or X has just been delivered or is on the boat must secretly be feeling a bit of a wally because if they had only waited a few weeks they could have got the same car thousands cheaper. If the car hasn’t been delivered, won’t they be tempted to cancel their order and re-specify if they can?


Actually I might have been slightly harsh earlier when I said that somebody having taken delivery yesterday would be a bit miffed their neighbour can get the same today for $16k less. Can somebody who took delivery yesterday drive it for another 5 days, return it for a full refund and then place an order for the same spec at the new price?

Howard wrote:In addition potential customers can now test drive a brand new car and return it within a week or a thousand miles and get a 100% refund. I doubt if this policy will cause a huge number of returns, but it will increase the number of nearly new cars available at a discount. These cars will actually have cost Tesla more to produce because of the extra administration but will have to be sold at a lower price!


I'm not convinced that is an accident. It would allow Tesla to report the car as a new delivery, and then resell the car without dropping the official retail price. Presumably there would also be the cost of a mechanical check up before the car could be resold? It would be conveniant if there was an oversupply of new but decent second hand/discount demand, albeit probably not very profitable. Better to sell it at a lower price than not at all?

dspp wrote:As to the reduction in price causing grief to existing owners: I don't think so. This is a auto company that stated years ago they planned to release a $35,000 model 3. And whadda you know, they've done it. Not exactly a cunningly disguised secret plan was it.


...but what about the $16k price cut for top of the range S's and X's?

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204823

Postby odysseus2000 » March 1st, 2019, 1:57 pm

Henry Ford made a fortune selling cars in any colour you wanted, so long as you wanted black.

Musk in the last conference call said demand for the Model 3 was off the scale, it was just too expensive for many. Will this $35k car be low cost enough?

We will soon see how much folk loathe legacy auto and how much they love Tesla.

Imho the Model 3 will sell very well.

What could cause it to fail? Some technical troubles that hurt a lot of folk. This seems unlikely as millions of miles have been driven in the US, but not impossible as Toyota demonstrated by killing a few of their buyers.

From my own research looking at cars at the price level of the Standard Model 3, it is the best car currently available, the only 21st century model available and for many folk the range is adequate and the savings and joy of being hydro carbon free very high.

I suspect the Standard Model 3 will surprise to the upside.

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204865

Postby dspp » March 1st, 2019, 4:35 pm

I thought this was a very reasonable analysis re the 3:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/424567 ... app=1&dr=1

At my work I watch some of my management team who are BMW 3-series owners window-shopping the Tesla 3. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see them make a move on their next change.

regards, dspp

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204876

Postby Howard » March 1st, 2019, 5:23 pm

dspp wrote:
As to the reduction in price causing grief to existing owners: I don't think so. This is a auto company that stated years ago they planned to release a $35,000 model 3. And whadda you know, they've done it. Not exactly a cunningly disguised secret plan was it.

regards, dspp


dspp

I think Tesla yesterday reduced the price of most Model 3 versions as well as the S and X. This is covered in the "Seeking Alpha" article you quote above.

If I'm correct, surely you'd agree that yesterday's customers may be a little aggrieved that the retail price of their new vehicles has just been cut? Tesla's action suggests desperation and isn't the usual behaviour of a luxury brand. I'm no expert, but it is likely that this policy will put off fleet buyers and leasing companies. We all know that it may be possible to negotiate a discount on a luxury vehicle but the manufacturers don't usually shout about reducing retail prices every other month.

I know Ody will quote Ford's success with the model T but driving prices down is more like the behaviour of a mass market brand. Customers
may start to compare the Tesla Model 3 with the new 2019 Nissan Leaf which has a similar range and is a very nice car to drive (from experience of the 2018 model). The Nissan has the advantage of greater versatility as a second car as well as being more suited in size to European roads.

Your colleagues driving BMW 3 series are enjoying cars which command a premium. Worth asking them if they are likely to buy a new vehicle whose price keeps going down? If I were them, I'd be tempted more by a BMW 330e. No range anxiety and the sweetest acceleration from rest plus power at speed on the motorway when electric vehicles' gearing tends to be at a disadvantage.

regards

Howard

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Re: Musk endeavours

#204886

Postby odysseus2000 » March 1st, 2019, 5:52 pm

Interestingly, 320,000 Nissan leaf have been sold:

https://uk.nissannews.com/en-GB/release ... oss-europe

The Leaf costs about $35,000 and has a range of < 200 miles.

It will be interesting to see what projections Glass and associated retail car prices start to put on hydro-carbon cars for re-sale value.

I suspect that these re-sale values will begin to plummet making owning one a more serious exercise in depreciation. This will be particularly strong in the company car sector where re-sale value is more important than to a private buyer.

Regards,

Howard
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Re: Musk endeavours

#204933

Postby Howard » March 1st, 2019, 11:52 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Interestingly, 320,000 Nissan leaf have been sold:

https://uk.nissannews.com/en-GB/release ... oss-europe

The Leaf costs about $35,000 and has a range of < 200 miles.

It will be interesting to see what projections Glass and associated retail car prices start to put on hydro-carbon cars for re-sale value.

I suspect that these re-sale values will begin to plummet making owning one a more serious exercise in depreciation. This will be particularly strong in the company car sector where re-sale value is more important than to a private buyer.

Regards,


Ody

You don’t have to look far to see that you are far too pessimistic about ICE cars’ residual values as predicted by financial institutions who are actually underwriting the costs of real cars. Unless they are wrong the revolution isn’t coming for a few years yet!

Just compare the costs of personally leasing a Nissan Leaf Tekna with a BMW 320i M Sport Automatic with the usual extras like metallic paint etc.

For four years rental and six months deposit (6 + 48 payments) and 10,000 miles per year a Nissan Leaf will cost you around £450 a month and a BMW will cost around £350 a month.

This suggests that every financial institution offering leases believes the residual value of an ICE BMW will be much higher than a Leaf in four years time. And this has been the reality over the last three years.

If you compare the same two cars rental costs for 20,000 miles pa the cost difference is huge. The BMW will cost around £380 a month and the Leaf £550 a month.

You can hold your own view that all the professionals in the car leasing industry are wrong, but you will have to accept that virtually everyone who studies the long term costs of cars believes that EVs will be more expensive to maintain and have lower residual values in four years time.

Forgive me for saying this but you have been predicting the ruin of ICE manufacturers and plunging second hand values for their cars for the last three years or more and it hasn’t happened yet. Look at Fleet News for the historic running costs of Company cars and you will see that EVs have not achieved better residuals nor overall running costs for cars over the last three years.

Many of us might be keen to buy an EV, but the economics aren’t right yet and Tesla may run up huge losses trying to change this.

Yes, one day you may be right. But, you have to face the fact that even after dieselgate, diesel engined VWs aren’t depreciating that fast compared with EVs. Just look at the statistics for company fleets in publications like Fleet News who have real running cost statistics over the recent past.

All this means that the big players with their superior marketing skills have a chance to steadily work out how to make profits selling EVs and undermining Tesla’s initial lead.

regards

Howard


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