Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to Anonymous,bruncher,niord,gvonge,Shelford, for Donating to support the site

Musk endeavours

The Big Picture Place
odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6479
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1572 times
Been thanked: 983 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#154642

Postby odysseus2000 » July 24th, 2018, 11:17 am

Peter Gray
But I do have to question why any negative comment on Musk is questioned as fake by you, but I've never seen any positive remarks from Musk or Tesla questioned in the same way by you.


I could write a good bear case for shorting Tesla, but for the moment I believe the bull case is more compelling, especially when one gets articles like that by Maureen Callahan in the NYpost which is a very well written emotional bear case with imho nothing of any use for bears.

If we look at article:

NYpost article
“Not sure we actually need a building,” he tweeted. Meanwhile, he was “back to sleeping at the factory” to hit production deadlines.
This is a genius?
Tesla was founded in 2003, but the world’s largest automakers quickly surpassed Musk’s vision for electric vehicles. Tesla will never catch up. Shareholders are finally catching on.
Musk isn’t sorry and nothing is ever his fault
So should the government, which reportedly gifts Musk’s companies with an estimated $4.9 billion in subsidies.
Star investor Jim Chanos called Tesla a “walking insolvency” back in 2016. He doubled down in December, saying Tesla is “headed for a brick wall.”
SpaceX — which Musk touts as replacing NASA and colonizing Mars — has been a literal failure to launch. So many of its rockets have burned up or crashed that Musk, for reasons unknown, has made a blooper reel.


In this section she first of all infers that Musk is an idiot, by asking how could a genius sleep on the factory floor?

Then she states that in 15 years Musk’s vision has been surpassed by the world’s largest automakers. In what sense? In electric cars sold, in charging stations,… nothing, just an emotional argument appearing to anyone who knows none of the facts.

Then another jibe at Musk, suggesting he is arrogant and takes no responsibility.

Then she cites Chanos as a star investor, a man who is down hundreds of millions on his Tesla short. Thats not the kind of star anyone wants investing their money.

Then the article attacks his rocket launches saying so many have failed that he has a blooper reel. Reads great but at odds with the facts and the blooper reel was of his early launches showing what problems SpaceX had to overcome.

How one would one describe this article. The current vogue is describe it as fake news, more historical descriptions would be a hit job, the sort of thing that editors are told to do their by their owners. One sees this all the time in UK tabloid press with one paper arguing for one political party, another for a different one, all emotional and all well received by the target audience who don’t want balance. The susceptibility of the masses to this kind of influence was for centuries used as a justification for keeping power within a small select group which eventually grew to be males with property and only recently to embrace all the adult population.

I find it interesting and although I would like to dismiss it, the reality is that such things sway voters and purchasers of things and all companies and politicians put intense efforts in to good PR. E.g. VW always market them selves out as makers of reliable well engineered motors, conveniently forgetting to mention how they made cars that deliberately flouted US emission regulations and were heavily fined for cheating their purchasers.

So for now there is so much ridiculous stuff being produced on Musk that it is amazing to me how well he has so far managed to ride it all out and what I fear most about Tesla as an investment is not that this stuff is predominantly spun reality more like lies than balanced journalism, but that someone might decide the only solution here is to take Musk out and that imho is currently the biggest bear threat for Tesla.

Others argue that it is Musk flamboyant style that will destroy him. Those folk have not studied the historical cases of similar figures. If one were to look at Wedgwood, Arkwright, Edison, Ford ...and others who changed the world one will find this same kind of ego flamboyance, obviously tempered by the limited media of their time. One can do the same thing with politicians. No one could describe Churchill as a man of modest ego, or in more recent times Thatcher, Reagan and Trump. Yet all of these got elected and did things that defined the lives of their voters during their tenure. Although many folk trained in the hard jobs loathe the concept it is emotion and the ability to master and focus it that is critical in human advancement. Take that away and one has bland politicians that no one remembers and whose achievements are forgotten.

Regards,

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6479
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1572 times
Been thanked: 983 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#154709

Postby odysseus2000 » July 24th, 2018, 2:20 pm

Tesla say they did not ask suppliers for cash back:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tesla ... yptr=yahoo

So who is telling the truth here?

The original article or this one?

How is an investor to know?

How can an investor believe what is in the media?

All of these and other questions make investing a very difficult business and imho anyone who follows the media and makes investment decisions based on what he or she gets from the media is highly likely to lose money.

Regards,

redsturgeon
Lemon Half
Posts: 8997
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:06 am
Has thanked: 1333 times
Been thanked: 3719 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#154719

Postby redsturgeon » July 24th, 2018, 2:49 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Tesla say they did not ask suppliers for cash back:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tesla ... yptr=yahoo

So who is telling the truth here?

The original article or this one?

How is an investor to know?

How can an investor believe what is in the media?

All of these and other questions make investing a very difficult business and imho anyone who follows the media and makes investment decisions based on what he or she gets from the media is highly likely to lose money.

Regards,



From your link:

Tesla responded on Monday to a Wall Street Journal report that it asked some suppliers to rebate payments going back to 2016, saying that it asked fewer than 10 suppliers for reductions in total capital expenditure spending on projects that began in 2016 but are still not complete.


This seems open to interpretation to me and not a categorical denial.

John

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#154727

Postby BobbyD » July 24th, 2018, 3:16 pm

Full Tesla statement

“Negotiation is a standard part of the procurement process, and now that we’re in a stronger position with Model 3 production ramping, it is a good time to improve our competitive advantage in this area. We’re focused on reaching a more sustainable long term cost basis, not just finding one-time reductions for this quarter, and that’s good for Tesla, our shareholders, and our suppliers who will also benefit from our increasing production volume and future growth opportunities. We asked fewer than 10 suppliers for a reduction in total capex project spend for long-term projects that began in 2016 but are still not complete, and any changes with these suppliers would improve our future cash flows, but not impact our ability to achieve profitability in Q3. The remainder of our discussions with suppliers are entirely focused on future parts price and design or process changes that will help us lower fundamental costs rather than prior period adjustments of capex projects. This is the right thing to do.”


- https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/23/tesla-s ... uunts.html

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6479
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1572 times
Been thanked: 983 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#154820

Postby odysseus2000 » July 24th, 2018, 10:39 pm

Another day on and we have a different perspective on Tesla which only goes to show how manipulative and dangerous the media is.

Yesterday Peter Gray who has been an investor and poster for many years typed:

The auto maker’s memo, sent by a global supply manager, described the request as essential to Tesla’s continued operation

If this is true, and it's not just a ruse to maximise profits at the expense of suppliers then Tesla are in deep sh*t


Today there looks to be nothing dangerous in the memo, just standard business practice which is how it should have been presented by the journalist, but instead they focused on "...essential to Tesla's continued operation..." with none of the context that has emerged today.

As I read the original article the implied message was that things are bad at Tesla, which I didn't believe, but I was steered to think that way by how the article was presented as was Peter Gray.

It is difficult to argue, whether bull or bear on Tesla, that the journalist did anyone any favours with how the story was written.

Regards,

vrdiver
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2574
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 2:22 am
Has thanked: 552 times
Been thanked: 1213 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#154829

Postby vrdiver » July 24th, 2018, 11:24 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:It is difficult to argue, whether bull or bear on Tesla, that the journalist did anyone any favours with how the story was written.

Or rather, that the journalist, wittingly or otherwise, was doing somebody a favour (rather than being independent and reporting the facts).

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#154846

Postby BobbyD » July 25th, 2018, 1:45 am

odysseus2000 wrote:Another day on and we have a different perspective on Tesla which only goes to show how manipulative and dangerous the media is.

Yesterday Peter Gray who has been an investor and poster for many years typed:

The auto maker’s memo, sent by a global supply manager, described the request as essential to Tesla’s continued operation

If this is true, and it's not just a ruse to maximise profits at the expense of suppliers then Tesla are in deep sh*t


Today there looks to be nothing dangerous in the memo, just standard business practice which is how it should have been presented by the journalist, but instead they focused on "...essential to Tesla's continued operation..." with none of the context that has emerged today.

As I read the original article the implied message was that things are bad at Tesla, which I didn't believe, but I was steered to think that way by how the article was presented as was Peter Gray.

It is difficult to argue, whether bull or bear on Tesla, that the journalist did anyone any favours with how the story was written.

Regards,


You are confusing the leaked email which was the basis of the original story with Tesla's statement about the leaked email issued in response to tthe story.

For somebody obsessed with spin and conspiracy you pay surprisingly little attention to the details, and are incredibly quick to form an opinion which proves you right...

PeterGray
Lemon Slice
Posts: 849
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 793 times
Been thanked: 344 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#154888

Postby PeterGray » July 25th, 2018, 9:56 am

Today there looks to be nothing dangerous in the memo, just standard business practice which is how it should have been presented by the journalist, but instead they focused on "...essential to Tesla's continued operation..." with none of the context that has emerged today.

True that Tesla are perhaps not quite as near the cliff edge as a first reading suggested, but I do not accept that renegotiating prices on existing contracts is just standard practice - if it is for Tesla I'm glad I have nothing to do with them!

"We asked fewer than 10 suppliers for a reduction in total capex project spend for long-term projects that began in 2016 but are still not complete"

Peter

argoal
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 132
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:51 am
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 69 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#154900

Postby argoal » July 25th, 2018, 10:31 am

I used to work in the motor supply industry many years ago and this kind of treatment of suppliers was not unheard of at the time.

PeterGray wrote:"We asked fewer than 10 suppliers for a reduction in total capex project spend for long-term projects that began in 2016 but are still not complete"


I can't say if times have since changed since then, but I remember Ford presenting us with a 3% reduction in prices one year which they said we could easily achieve by reducing our costs by 6% allowing us to keep the difference as extra profit. It wasn't a request either. They were our biggest customer so felt they had leaverage (which they did).



As for the business case for Tesla........ To me it looks as simple as calculating the chance that they will run out of cash before hitting profitability. As far as I can see it is on a knife-edge unless they get even more funding soon.

Thai Submarines, sleeping at the factory, SpaceX crashes, comparisons to Churchill, fake news, Musk's ego size, etc, etc........

None of that really matters in the long run. Tesla will either quickly start to make a profit or will equally quickly run out of money.

Does anyone have an accurate figure for the number of months that their cash burn will sustain them? 3? 6?

Personally, I think he should focus on making cars and ditch the other side shows - at least until Tesla is sustainable.

redsturgeon
Lemon Half
Posts: 8997
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:06 am
Has thanked: 1333 times
Been thanked: 3719 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#154936

Postby redsturgeon » July 25th, 2018, 11:44 am

PeterGray wrote:

[i]"We asked fewer than 10 suppliers for a reduction in total capex project spend for long-term projects that began in 2016 but are still not complete"




I'm not even sure I understand what that means.

It is totally understandable that a company goes to its suppliers to renegotiate terms and prices going forwards but where things become iffy to me is where those renegotiations involve some sort of retrospective element.

So what does "a reduction in total capex project spend for long-term projects that began in 2016 but are still not complete really mean?

If as a supplier I have agreed to supply 1million units at $100 each = Total cost $100million for the period from 2016 to 2019 and Tesla now wants to renegotiate to create a total spend of $90 million then I would say this a different to renegotiating contracts going forwards and to me is a bad sign.

John

PeterGray
Lemon Slice
Posts: 849
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 793 times
Been thanked: 344 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#154967

Postby PeterGray » July 25th, 2018, 1:06 pm

redsturgeon wrote:
PeterGray wrote:

"We asked fewer than 10 suppliers for a reduction in total capex project spend for long-term projects that began in 2016 but are still not complete"




I'm not even sure I understand what that means.

It is totally understandable that a company goes to its suppliers to renegotiate terms and prices going forwards but where things become iffy to me is where those renegotiations involve some sort of retrospective element.

So what does "a reduction in total capex project spend for long-term projects that began in 2016 but are still not complete really mean?

If as a supplier I have agreed to supply 1million units at $100 each = Total cost $100million for the period from 2016 to 2019 and Tesla now wants to renegotiate to create a total spend of $90 million then I would say this a different to renegotiating contracts going forwards and to me is a bad sign.

John


I also have trouble understanding exactly what Tesla mean (and I suspect that is no accident!) They seem to be arguing that the reductions in payments to suppliers will only take place on billing from Q3 on, which sounds superficially OK, but quite clearly they are talking about ongoing contracts which were agreed 2 years ago - so these are retrospective reduction in agreed contracts. Maybe that sort of thing is commonplace, but it clearly stinks, and the justification Tesla seem to be using is that they can't operate as a going concern without reducing previously budgeted prices. Either it's not a good sign of business health, or it's misuse of position to squeeze suppliers to increase profits.

Peter

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6479
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1572 times
Been thanked: 983 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#154977

Postby odysseus2000 » July 25th, 2018, 1:34 pm

PeterGray
I also have trouble understanding exactly what Tesla mean (and I suspect that is no accident!) They seem to be arguing that the reductions in payments to suppliers will only take place on billing from Q3 on, which sounds superficially OK, but quite clearly they are talking about ongoing contracts which were agreed 2 years ago - so these are retrospective reduction in agreed contracts. Maybe that sort of thing is commonplace, but it clearly stinks, and the justification Tesla seem to be using is that they can't operate as a going concern without reducing previously budgeted prices. Either it's not a good sign of business health, or it's misuse of position to squeeze suppliers to increase profits.


Maybe the negotiation is something like: We have a contract with you for x widgets at y, as we like your widgets we want to buy 10x, this safeguards your jobs ,but as we now want more you will get economies of scale so we will only pay z, where z is less than y by some to be negotiated amount.

Kind of standard business practice. E.g in electronics both the main suppliers Digikey & Mouser will substantially reduce prices if you buy a lot with out having to ask.

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#154979

Postby BobbyD » July 25th, 2018, 1:41 pm

argoal wrote:As for the business case for Tesla........ To me it looks as simple as calculating the chance that they will run out of cash before hitting profitability. As far as I can see it is on a knife-edge unless they get even more funding soon.

...

Personally, I think he should focus on making cars and ditch the other side shows - at least until Tesla is sustainable.


There's also the small matter of whether or not Tesla becomes outdated tech when Big-Car's ev's start to emerge in numbers. Without wanting to duplicate the electric cars thread the charging system proposed by VAG, BMW, Ford and Daimler appears to be a significant step up, and straight off the line the Porsche Taycan almost looks like it might have been designed to give the Model S a run for its money. Tesla has no shortage of developments on going, is a higher power charging system one of them, and has updating their charging network been budgeted for?

Do one thing profitably, rather than 6 things unprofitably...

PeterGray wrote:I also have trouble understanding exactly what Tesla mean (and I suspect that is no accident!)


I very, very, very strongly suspect the same thing.

Quick edit to add:

With a range of over 300 miles (NEDC), the Mission E Cross Turismo is also ready for any spontaneous journey. And can be recharged to a range of 250 miles in a mere 15 minutes, thanks to its innovative 800-volt technology.


https://www.porsche.com/uk/aboutporsche ... s-turismo/

redsturgeon
Lemon Half
Posts: 8997
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:06 am
Has thanked: 1333 times
Been thanked: 3719 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#154985

Postby redsturgeon » July 25th, 2018, 1:53 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Maybe the negotiation is something like: We have a contract with you for x widgets at y, as we like your widgets we want to buy 10x, this safeguards your jobs ,but as we now want more you will get economies of scale so we will only pay z, where z is less than y by some to be negotiated amount.



Regards,


Hi Ody, I have no problem if that is the case and of course that is standard practice. I'd expect them to be doing this will ALL suppliers not just ten.

But maybe it is more like the scenario I described...then what?

I would say the ambiguous wording "a reduction in total capex project spend for long-term projects that began in 2016 but are still not complete"

would not have been used if what they meant was "we are renegotiating increased volume with our suppliers to bring the unit cost down".

John

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6479
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1572 times
Been thanked: 983 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#154992

Postby odysseus2000 » July 25th, 2018, 2:12 pm

BobbyD
With a range of over 300 miles (NEDC), the Mission E Cross Turismo is also ready for any spontaneous journey. And can be recharged to a range of 250 miles in a mere 15 minutes, thanks to its innovative 800-volt technology.


But this is a VW, a company with a reputation for over promise, under deliver and if need be cheat buyers.

All we have is a concept car, no real world driving, crash tests, charging testing...

Is 800 volts safe?

For now its just a glossy photoshoot and a few pre-production motors backed by the usual German propaganda machine and looking at the pictures the instrument panel looks like an ordinary petrol engined car, how boring is that?

Does it have over the air service, can it be called to come to your door, how well does it automatous driving work? How is the service profile, do they come to your house to service it?

As it looks like a gas engined Porsche why bother buying a petrol variant, why not wait for this?

Lots of questions, for now no answers.

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#155003

Postby BobbyD » July 25th, 2018, 2:48 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:But this is a VW, a company with a reputation for


...producing an awful lot of cars which people are more than happy to buy, and actually get to take home and drive.

Porsche have no problem designing desirable cars, or selling them, at a profit, quite a large profit. The sort of thing Tesla would like to be able to do. Perhaps they should have kidnapped the Porsche board and got them to run Tesla.

It's a Porsche. It looks like a Porsche. It's almost like they have a brand identity...

Why bother buying a computer this year, next years computer will be faster and cheaper... and not everybody is quite as hung up on ev's as you are. If I wanted a Porsche it's probably not going to stop me. If I wanted a sporty electric then yes I would think twice and wait to see how it stood up against the model S. Thankfully Porsche don't make the model S.

Why wouldn't 800 volts be safe?

odysseus2000 wrote:Lots of questions, for now no answers.


Yes it's almost like they are teasing an upcoming vehicle...

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6479
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1572 times
Been thanked: 983 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#155059

Postby odysseus2000 » July 25th, 2018, 5:33 pm

BobbyD
Why bother buying a computer this year, next years computer will be faster and cheaper... and not everybody is quite as hung up on ev's as you are. If I wanted a Porsche it's probably not going to stop me. If I wanted a sporty electric then yes I would think twice and wait to see how it stood up against the model S. Thankfully Porsche don't make the model S.

Why wouldn't 800 volts be safe?


You won't be re-selling a computer but you will a car, if the market drops for IC engines you are then looking at a big loss. My Father's cousin ran a Mere dealership and he was always keen to find out when facelifts and what not were happening as that knocked down the price of the old design.

Uk mains is 240 volts rms, about 320 volts peak. Mains is quite capable of killing you and you ask why wouldn't 800 volts be safe?

Maybe you have existing manufacturer bias, sort of like you think VW are great cars whereas they are cheap tat with poor collision protection for occupants and with a bad smell of cheating buyers by falsifying emission data.

If you compare a model 3 crash test data to a VW it ain't flattering to VW.

Go to any independent garage and ask them what they think of VW and you will not be told they are good cars.

Regards,

dspp
Lemon Half
Posts: 5884
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 5825 times
Been thanked: 2127 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#155083

Postby dspp » July 25th, 2018, 6:22 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
Uk mains is 240 volts rms, about 320 volts peak. Mains is quite capable of killing you and you ask why wouldn't 800 volts be safe?

.....
Go to any independent garage and ask them what they think of VW and you will not be told they are good cars.

Regards,



1) Voltage can be dealt with safely, so can amps. In general volts is easier to deal wit safely than amps. So higher voltage is a better thing than higher amps. Higher voltage means reduced weight which is a good thing for EVs. Really 800V is no big deal. I was watching a 1.2 million V x 3000A item on test last week ... :)

2) My local independent garage is quite happy with VAG as a design. Same for Fords.

3) Mind you I grant that VAG are throttling production of the eGolf quite hard, and seem pretty keen to NOT give it Tesla 3 equivalent range. Duh.

4) Interesting times. That was a good set of Tesla 3 AWD reviews. Good luck to Tesla. Any news on their cash situation & production rates ?

regards, dspp

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6479
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1572 times
Been thanked: 983 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#155093

Postby odysseus2000 » July 25th, 2018, 6:38 pm

dspp
1) Voltage can be dealt with safely, so can amps. In general volts is easier to deal wit safely than amps. So higher voltage is a better thing than higher amps. Higher voltage means reduced weight which is a good thing for EVs. Really 800V is no big deal. I was watching a 1.2 million V x 3000A item on test last week ... :)


Sure if you know what you are doing then handling high voltages is no big deal, but if you start putting in 800 volt power supplies capable of delivering a lot of current that have to deal with the weather, abuse and folk with limited sense and children and their desire to poke their fingers everywhere, it becomes more of an issue.

Yes, if you want x amount of watts which is current*voltage, higher voltages mean lower currents, but if I was going to get any kind of electric shock the lower the voltage the better.

VW to me are always let down by the standard of the internal trim, and I have yet to find a mechanic who thought they were in anyway special or well built, although I know many owners who think VW are the best cars on the road at their price and that Mercedes are the best cars period. My experience with working on Mercedes has convinced me they are all PR and the lowest quality they can get away with.

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#155098

Postby BobbyD » July 25th, 2018, 6:44 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:You won't be re-selling a computer but you will a car


There is always something big around the corner, if you always waited you'd never buy.

Anybody who does reconsider a purchase on the back of upcoming Big-Car electrics was unlikely to be considering a Big-Car car in the first place, they are far more likely to be considering buying a Tesla... I'd say this is bad news for Tesla, not so much for Porsche...

240v can kill you, and yet we have it in every house and hardly anybody dies. Why do you think an 800v charging solution need be any more lethal than the socket which the computer you are reading this on is plugged in to?

odysseus2000 wrote:Maybe you have existing manufacturer bias, sort of like you think VW are great cars whereas they are cheap tat with poor collision protection for occupants and with a bad smell of cheating buyers by falsifying emission data.


...and this form the person who defended Tesla's autopilot on the grounds that it might be dangerous but if they win the race to the crown of autonomy it would all be a rational and worthwhile risk...?

I have no idea if VW are good cars, but I do know they are profitable cars. They are also ubiquitous cars. Profitable multiplied by ubiquity equals Money.

odysseus2000 wrote:If you compare a model 3 crash test data to a VW it ain't flattering to VW.


That would be great, if you could actually get your hands on a model 3...

It's also an interesting claim since in the model 3's category 2 of the IIHS top safety picks are Audis...

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicl ... sedan/2018

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicl ... sedan/2018

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicl ... door-sedan

Couldn't find the rating for accelerating straight in to a concrete road divide though...

odysseus2000 wrote:Go to any independent garage and ask them what they think of VW and you will not be told they are good cars.


This is obviously the gold standard when it comes to evaluating car companies... Ignore sales, profitability, solidity, cash flow... when all is said and done it's what a bloke down the garage says which is all important.

odysseus2000 wrote: I know many owners who think VW are the best cars on the road at their price


Now that is a far more important opinion...


Return to “Macro and Global Topics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests