Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

[1nvest]

Yes dear, I've only just filled up now, we're all good for our non stop overnight drive from London to Edinburgh and I'll be home soon



My brother is driving up in his EV, but he's worried about the reports in York of 4 hour charge point waiting times before even getting to start the charge, so he's booking a overnight stay there, and apparently prices for motels have really risen due to the high demand.

[Watis]

Yes dear, I've only just filled up now, we're all good for our non stop overnight drive from London to Edinburgh and I'll be home soon



My brother is driving up in his EV, but he's worried about the reports in York of 4 hour charge point waiting times before even getting to start the charge, so he's booking a overnight stay there, and apparently prices for motels have really risen due to the high demand.

Or, you could take the train:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66925314

Erm, perhaps not!

Watis

[1nvest]

Or, you could take the train:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66925314

Erm, perhaps not!

Watis

Not made of money, can only afford to fly. Like most utility providers, they're owned by others and Brits pay to subsidise their travel/utilities.

[Arborbridge]

Yes dear, I've only just filled up now, we're all good for our non stop overnight drive from London to Edinburgh and I'll be home soon



My brother is driving up in his EV, but he's worried about the reports in York of 4 hour charge point waiting times before even getting to start the charge, so he's booking a overnight stay there, and apparently prices for motels have really risen due to the high demand.

Sounds like one of those stories that does the rounds. I was recently driving through that area and had no problems on a week's trip. It's true, not in York city, but along the main roads around York.

The only problem I had charging was that I found the services on the A1 near Peterborough were busy. Being unwilling to wait I just pushed off to a nearby Shell station which had two spare chargers: problem solved.

We are going to have overcrowding for a while, but it must have been difficult with petrol at first. If capitalism is as good as we think it is it will sort itself out.

Arb.

[odysseus2000]

If you have a swap battery station, it has to have a lot of batteries on site, both charged and charging, which means each site has to be large and has to have a good supply of power.

Surely the same problems exist for electric charging stations as they are now.

They take massively longer to charge than swapping a battery out would, or filling a petrol car does, so need 10 times as many charging spaces.

And they require the same amount of power, whether they charge the cars on demand, or charge the batteries first. Indeed charging batteries first is much better, as you can do it overnight when demand is lower.

So your arguments are against electric cars, not swappable batteries.

The batteries in an electric car are heavy and expensive. A station that swapped batteries will need machine to both remove the existing battery and install the new one.

In a swap system, who pays for the battery? If it is the car owner when he/she buys the car, are they going to want to take a new battery and have it swapped for a much older one at a swap station? Trying to ensure fair depreciation among swap battery users will be a logistic nightmare. You could for example have a choice of say swapping for a new or less expensive older one with the older one costing less, but then range is likely impacted and the charging station has to keep a lot more batteries at various ages. This rapidly become very impractical even if all batteries were standardised which seems a near impossible dream in the auto-trade where it is deliberate policy to make any spare part not fit any other car.

Most of these arguments come down to usage. I see many cars that are used for the School run and for shopping that would probably run many days between charges and if connected to the grid become storage helping to balance grid supply and demand.

Alternatively a car that is used for long daily journeys will require daily charging.

Much depends on how organised the owner is. Folk with off street parking who plug in every evening will in many cases be adequately supplied, folk who can't remember to plug in will be vexed to nightmare, a similar situation to what happens with mobile phones. Some never have issues, others are regularly out of charge and vexed.

It is less easy for those with out off-street parking who must currently use car park chargers. At my local supermarket there are only two charging points and most of the time no one is using them, but it takes time to go and then sit around or shop while the charge happens.

In the by and by it is very likely that wireless chargers become common for on street charging. Sure this will cost money, but likely a lot less than it cost to put in electricity in the first place with modern machines replacing the armies of folk who were needed about a century ago. There is now fibre all over the place and sure it cost to install it, but it was done and now few seem to complain about the "world wide wait" which was the endless moan only a few decades ago. For those who don't live near fibre there is now satellite broadband and the internet has become a vital basic need for many. I expect electrical supply will go more or less the same route, save for it is currently not likely to be beamed down, although in the by and by power from space looks like a potentially viable technology.

Regards,

[Itsallaguess]

I was recently driving through that area and had no [charging] problems on a week's trip. It's true, not in York city, but along the main roads around York.

The only problem I had charging was that I found the services on the A1 near Peterborough were busy.

Being unwilling to wait I just pushed off to a nearby Shell station which had two spare chargers: problem solved.

I think it's fair to assume that the chief executive of Britain's largest motorway-service provider has a fairly good understanding of the current UK-wide charging situation -

Lack of EV plug-in points sparking surge in ‘charge rage’ at motorway services -

Britain’s biggest motorway service station provider has brought in marshals to police “charge rage” among electric vehicle drivers battling for access to plug-in points.

Moto chief executive Ken McMeikan warned the UK’s motorway service stations are facing growing “public disorder” due to a lack of grid connections preventing him from installing enough car chargers to meet the surge in demand.

It means many motorists are facing long waits, with angry drivers confronting staff and each other over the lack of charging facilities.

Mr McMeikan said the delays made drivers “very angry and stressed” and warned of the growing risk of “charge rage” on Britain’s motorways.

He said: “People need to drive their EV cars around without range anxiety, without long queues and without public disorder but at peak seasonal times we are experiencing all this now.”

https://www.removepaywall.com/https:/www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/09/30/ev-power-point-shortage-driver-disputes-motorway-services

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Arborbridge]

I was recently driving through that area and had no [charging] problems on a week's trip. It's true, not in York city, but along the main roads around York.

The only problem I had charging was that I found the services on the A1 near Peterborough were busy.

Being unwilling to wait I just pushed off to a nearby Shell station which had two spare chargers: problem solved.

I think it's fair to assume that the chief executive of Britain's largest motorway-service provider has a fairly good understanding of the current UK-wide charging situation -

Lack of EV plug-in points sparking surge in ‘charge rage’ at motorway services -

Britain’s biggest motorway service station provider has brought in marshals to police “charge rage” among electric vehicle drivers battling for access to plug-in points.

Moto chief executive Ken McMeikan warned the UK’s motorway service stations are facing growing “public disorder” due to a lack of grid connections preventing him from installing enough car chargers to meet the surge in demand.

It means many motorists are facing long waits, with angry drivers confronting staff and each other over the lack of charging facilities.

Mr McMeikan said the delays made drivers “very angry and stressed” and warned of the growing risk of “charge rage” on Britain’s motorways.

He said: “People need to drive their EV cars around without range anxiety, without long queues and without public disorder but at peak seasonal times we are experiencing all this now.”

https://www.removepaywall.com/https:/www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/09/30/ev-power-point-shortage-driver-disputes-motorway-services

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Oh yes, there is a problem alright - but then, I've been fortunate enough in never having to charge at a motorway services and I would hope to avoid it. The one experience I related where there was a couple of cars that appeared to be waiting was on the A1 and that was easily solved by finding a less popular place.

There's a long way to go, but it will come. The extension in ICE sales will help, and in the pipeline there are faster charging batteries and longer ranges - both possibly within 5-8 years.

Meanwhile, those people waiting for hydrogen are likely to be disappointed, since although it will be a major force in large vehicles, it may never be usable for domestic small vehicles.

Arb.

[odysseus2000]

I was recently driving through that area and had no [charging] problems on a week's trip. It's true, not in York city, but along the main roads around York.

The only problem I had charging was that I found the services on the A1 near Peterborough were busy.

Being unwilling to wait I just pushed off to a nearby Shell station which had two spare chargers: problem solved.

I think it's fair to assume that the chief executive of Britain's largest motorway-service provider has a fairly good understanding of the current UK-wide charging situation -

Lack of EV plug-in points sparking surge in ‘charge rage’ at motorway services -

Britain’s biggest motorway service station provider has brought in marshals to police “charge rage” among electric vehicle drivers battling for access to plug-in points.

Moto chief executive Ken McMeikan warned the UK’s motorway service stations are facing growing “public disorder” due to a lack of grid connections preventing him from installing enough car chargers to meet the surge in demand.

It means many motorists are facing long waits, with angry drivers confronting staff and each other over the lack of charging facilities.

Mr McMeikan said the delays made drivers “very angry and stressed” and warned of the growing risk of “charge rage” on Britain’s motorways.

He said: “People need to drive their EV cars around without range anxiety, without long queues and without public disorder but at peak seasonal times we are experiencing all this now.”

https://www.removepaywall.com/https:/www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/09/30/ev-power-point-shortage-driver-disputes-motorway-services

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

All of the anti electric cars & charge rage & not enough charger articles are set to multiply as the election approaches.

The game is to both convince folk that electric cars are unsuitable for everyone so that the vested interests in supplying all the stuff needed for combustion cars can continue to sell stuff & make profits. They have forced the PM to change tack, although it was a fairly obvious move to present draconian things & then scale back so that the measures look more reasoned & appropriate, but this will bring out yet more folk arguing all manner of nonsense about why only combustion cars are good.

Secondly for the folk who want the government to pay for a smart grid & many more chargers, to paint such a dismal picture of charger availability & associated unhappiness that the major political parties will have manifesto that promise a vast increase in all things for electric cars all paid by the tax payer.

I find the electric car bad mouthers to be especially amusing, as they display ignorance of outstanding proportions that is resonating with a lot of consumers who are equally clueless.

Shortly we will get q3 sales figures for combustion & electric cars, those numbers will be the best tell on what is happening in the market.

My guess is that within 5 years, likely less, combustion cars will be as popular as drunk drivers.


Regards,

[Arborbridge]

Shortly we will get q3 sales figures for combustion & electric cars, those numbers will be the best tell on what is happening in the market.


Regards,

I'm looking forward to those numbers.

[murraypaul]

The game is to both convince folk that electric cars are unsuitable for everyone

Right now they are unsuitable for everyone at once.

If suddenly we woke up and all petrol/diesel cars had magically become electric, there is no way they could be charged, not even close.

There needs to be a massive improvement in charging options.

[odysseus2000]

The game is to both convince folk that electric cars are unsuitable for everyone

Right now they are unsuitable for everyone at once.

If suddenly we woke up and all petrol/diesel cars had magically become electric, there is no way they could be charged, not even close.

There needs to be a massive improvement in charging options.

Yes.

Just as if every horse at the start of the car age suddenly became a petrol car, there would not be enough petrol.

All industrial revolutions start when the technology is microscopic to what already exists, but if it is any good it grows rapidly.

When petrol cars were introduced there was no large drilling fields, no massive refineries, but they began to grow and grow and now they are so common and so part of everyones experience that they forget that the process of creating fuels from oil is only about 100 years old and started from zero to the massive infrastructure with filling stations every where that we now have.

Regards,

[Dod101]

The game is to both convince folk that electric cars are unsuitable for everyone

Right now they are unsuitable for everyone at once.

If suddenly we woke up and all petrol/diesel cars had magically become electric, there is no way they could be charged, not even close.

There needs to be a massive improvement in charging options.

And these require a massive upgrade to the grid, and this will take time. For instance nor far from where I live is the line of pylons taking electricity from Beauly in the Highlands to Denny in Central Scotland and the point where the SSE responsibility ends and Scottish Power takes over. This was upgraded several years ago to carry much higher voltage in its two transmission lines, one at 400kV and the other a mere 275kV. Now they are to upgrade the second line to 400kV as well. I was surprised how long this takes. They need to build a new transformer station not far from where I live. This in itself is a huge job and at least one other big transformer station has to be built as well as a lot of smaller upgrades over the 137 miles involved.

The plan is that the new line will not be energised until late 2028, and of course I have no doubt that Scottish Power will be doing similar from Denny south. We do not give enough credit to the likes of SSE because this no HS2 (or for that matter Scottish Government). When they say they will do something they do it and fund it.

Dod

[Watis]

Right now they are unsuitable for everyone at once.

If suddenly we woke up and all petrol/diesel cars had magically become electric, there is no way they could be charged, not even close.

There needs to be a massive improvement in charging options.

Yes.

Just as if every horse at the start of the car age suddenly became a petrol car, there would not be enough petrol.

All industrial revolutions start when the technology is microscopic to what already exists, but if it is any good it grows rapidly.

When petrol cars were introduced there was no large drilling fields, no massive refineries, but they began to grow and grow and now they are so common and so part of everyones experience that they forget that the process of creating fuels from oil is only about 100 years old and started from zero to the massive infrastructure with filling stations every where that we now have.

Regards,

It's a shame that, in the early days of motoring, oil won out over electricity for propelling cars.

Imagine where we might be with battery technology now, had it benefitted from another 100 years of research and development by the motor manufacturers.

And there would be a lot more oil still in the ground.

Watis

[Adamski]

I think the EV market is peaking. All the early adopters/ virtue signallers now have one. So prediction, demand will level off soon, and prices of EVs will start dropping as car lots start to fill up. Maybe after few decades we'll have the infrastructure and will be possible, but a long way off.

Plus am I imagining it, but noticed potholes seem to ne increasing, and our local duel carriagewsy needs constant resurfacing, im guesdimg its cause the EVs weigh so much they're wrecking the roads.

[odysseus2000]

For anyone interested in the practical facts about running thousands of BEV, this 54 minute video outlines many of the myths & compares them to the practical experience of operating BEV:

https://youtu.be/LeHakmL6eEc?si=UyORtn5BMIPOWytK

Regards,

[odysseus2000]

I think the EV market is peaking. All the early adopters/ virtue signallers now have one. So prediction, demand will level off soon, and prices of EVs will start dropping as car lots start to fill up. Maybe after few decades we'll have the infrastructure and will be possible, but a long way off.

Plus am I imagining it, but noticed potholes seem to ne increasing, and our local duel carriagewsy needs constant resurfacing, im guesdimg its cause the EVs weigh so much they're wrecking the roads.

The combustion market has peaked & is now in decline. The BEV market has hardly begun.

As to pot holes caused by heavy BEV, this is a red herring which is obvious if you compare the weight of popular BEV to popular combustion engines vehicles. Combustion engine cars weigh about the same as BEV.

Regards,

[PeterGray]

Plus am I imagining it, but noticed potholes seem to ne increasing, and our local duel carriagewsy needs constant resurfacing, im guesdimg its cause the EVs weigh so much they're wrecking the roads.

I think you will find that most of those are due to the ever increasing obsession with cars that are much too large. Oversized and overweight Chelsea tractors used for ferrying kids a mile or two on well surfaced roads to school, or jamming up narrow country roads during the summer.

The ludicrous Tesla cybertruck may weigh twice a normal car, but the Hummer is 50% more again.

And a Nissan Leaf weighs only 5-10% more than my VW Golf

[Arborbridge]

I think the EV market is peaking. All the early adopters/ virtue signallers now have one. So prediction, demand will level off soon, and prices of EVs will start dropping as car lots start to fill up. Maybe after few decades we'll have the infrastructure and will be possible, but a long way off.

Plus am I imagining it, but noticed potholes seem to ne increasing, and our local duel carriagewsy needs constant resurfacing, im guesdimg its cause the EVs weigh so much they're wrecking the roads.

Potholes were particularly bad last winter, but consider all the variables and it would be difficult to truly decide why. When have huge lorries on our local roads where I live, and they have increased in quantity (that's offical, BTW) whereas the number of EVs is relatively small. There are also monstrous SUVs which weigh as much as EVs.

Add into the mix that councils do not seem to be spending money fixing the holes properly so that the rain undermined those potholes in a few weeks, then it would be difficult to say EVs are anywhere near being the cause of the increase. I understand in our locale, there's always a tendency to bung in some tarmac because it's cheaper than making a proper repair of a huge patch. It's often the substrate which needs repairing as last winter's exceptional rain damaged it. And apparently the cost of plugging a hole comes from a different finance source than doing it properly.

Arb.

[JohnB]

Road damage is proportional to fourth power of axle weight, so even a minor increase in heavy lorries makes a huge difference. And once a delivery van gets to 3 tons or so, doubling of them would match a fivefold increase in 2 ton electric SUVs

[funduffer]

Plus am I imagining it, but noticed potholes seem to ne increasing, and our local duel carriagewsy needs constant resurfacing, im guesdimg its cause the EVs weigh so much they're wrecking the roads.

If you want some real data on the weight of EV's and the damage caused, then I suggest you read these excellent articles by Hannah Ritchie:

https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com ... ctric-cars

https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com ... c-cars-two

Summary TLDR:

Electric cars are heavier than their petrol equivalent. This is because their battery weighs a few hundred kilograms more than the small battery, and engine in an ICE.

But a car fleet of heavy EVs is not inevitable. Climbing weights will probably turn due to battery improvements, lower range anxiety (reducing the need to push for more and more miles), and increasing uptake of EVs in low-to-mid-priced markets in the next decade.

You can get a good EV – with a more-than-sufficient range of 500 kilometres – that weighs the same as the average ICE.

FD