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Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

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BobbyD
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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#152225

Postby BobbyD » July 13th, 2018, 4:32 pm

gnawsome wrote:I have always believed that roads were meant for people to travel on - private and commercial - yet it seems now that our overcrowded roads will have to service a new demand. There will be a new 'right' created to usurp the 'right of way'.


Do you have a problem with the millions of roadside parking spaces currently in use?

gnawsome
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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#152326

Postby gnawsome » July 14th, 2018, 2:06 pm

Do you have a problem with the millions of roadside parking spaces currently in use?


Yes.
On my patch, roads are 6~7m wide - cars strewn about such that all roads are in effect single track with passing places. Any delivery vehicles block the road off.
It is now so hazardous to exit from one's own drive that cautious drivers won't park off road because they are unsighted when exiting their property.
Combine the effect of families where every member will want to have their own car when old enough with the development of family homes utilising all the original drive/sideway for extensions and we won't be able to travel about.
Do I have any answers? -- of course not but I do see that we may be making a bad situation worse.

odysseus2000
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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#152334

Postby odysseus2000 » July 14th, 2018, 3:29 pm

gnawsome
Yes.
On my patch, roads are 6~7m wide - cars strewn about such that all roads are in effect single track with passing places. Any delivery vehicles block the road off.
It is now so hazardous to exit from one's own drive that cautious drivers won't park off road because they are unsighted when exiting their property.
Combine the effect of families where every member will want to have their own car when old enough with the development of family homes utilising all the original drive/sideway for extensions and we won't be able to travel about.
Do I have any answers? -- of course not but I do see that we may be making a bad situation worse.


Perhaps the only hope lies in robotic cars available on demand.

If this becomes available and popular it ought to cut down on the number of people who own a car leading to reduced congestion.

Of course it may never happen, but it is, at least for now, a hope for people whose lives are currently troubled by too many cars.

Regards,

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#152369

Postby BobbyD » July 14th, 2018, 8:36 pm

gnawsome wrote:Do I have any answers? -- of course not but I do see that we may be making a bad situation worse.


But using existing parking spaces as parking spaces won't make things any worse...

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#152375

Postby PeterGray » July 14th, 2018, 9:37 pm

No, but the fact that for many (perhaps majority?) of car owners they don't have access to their own parking space complicates the systems - since without doubt electric car owners are going to have to pay for electricity in the future, whatever they do now. In no way insurmountable, but it makes it all more complex, since payment systems will be needed.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#152381

Postby odysseus2000 » July 14th, 2018, 11:32 pm

PeterGray
No, but the fact that for many (perhaps majority?) of car owners they don't have access to their own parking space complicates the systems - since without doubt electric car owners are going to have to pay for electricity in the future, whatever they do now. In no way insurmountable, but it makes it all more complex, since payment systems will be needed.


The payment system will be the easiest thing to set up, all done wirelessly using for example the technology of PayPal, Apple Pay, Square et al. Electricity is easy to meter and wifi networks are much easier to setup than wires and cables.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#152383

Postby BobbyD » July 14th, 2018, 11:57 pm

PeterGray wrote:No, but the fact that for many (perhaps majority?) of car owners they don't have access to their own parking space complicates the systems - since without doubt electric car owners are going to have to pay for electricity in the future, whatever they do now. In no way insurmountable, but it makes it all more complex, since payment systems will be needed.


Mobile/contactless payment for the consumer, provider's solution will presumably vary somewhat depending on location but there are already mobile data networks covering large swathes of the country. Cross a plug socket with a traffic bollard and a mobile phone.

Whilst numbers of on street parking spots are still low blocking might be more of a problem.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#152404

Postby tjh290633 » July 15th, 2018, 9:39 am

Induction charging from a loop in the road surface would be a more sensible approach. It is already being used for battery powered buses. Put a loop in every parking place with an adjacent activating unit, or trigger from a sensor on each vehicle.

TJH

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#152407

Postby TUK020 » July 15th, 2018, 10:11 am

An interesting point is what this will do to parking costs.

Parking in a space that has been expensively converted into a recharging point is consuming two valuable resources:
not just the parking space, but also a recharging space.

This is likely to make more currently unpaid street parking transition to a paid 'Parking + Charging' bundle. Possibly pay for the space, and the electricity comes free?

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#152425

Postby BobbyD » July 15th, 2018, 12:13 pm

tjh290633 wrote:Induction charging from a loop in the road surface would be a more sensible approach. It is already being used for battery powered buses. Put a loop in every parking place with an adjacent activating unit, or trigger from a sensor on each vehicle.


Wireless isn't going to be the roll out tech, even if it makes sense in the long run since no electric cars currently have the facility to charge wirelessly.

In the medium run it would open up dynamic charging, fitting motorways with dynamic charging systems would be a major step in reducing range limitations.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#152436

Postby TUK020 » July 15th, 2018, 12:37 pm

BobbyD wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:Induction charging from a loop in the road surface would be a more sensible approach. It is already being used for battery powered buses. Put a loop in every parking place with an adjacent activating unit, or trigger from a sensor on each vehicle.


Wireless isn't going to be the roll out tech, even if it makes sense in the long run since no electric cars currently have the facility to charge wirelessly.

In the medium run it would open up dynamic charging, fitting motorways with dynamic charging systems would be a major step in reducing range limitations.

Inductive loop will take a long time to show up on motorways, again down to capital investment vs gain. Most likely to show up as a niche where you have vehicles doing a high mileage, but periodically and predictably showing up at certain spots for a quick top up (think bus stops, traffic lights on bus lanes, taxi queues). Again this is down to the capex involved in digging up the road, and laying wires.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#152440

Postby dspp » July 15th, 2018, 12:53 pm

Inductive charging is only about 75-80% efficient at the transfer stage,
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... hout_wires

It is very unlikely to be adopted within the first adoption cycle for EVs, i.e. the next 20-years. Perhaps the second adoption cycle.

regards, dspp

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#152441

Postby odysseus2000 » July 15th, 2018, 12:55 pm

TUK020
Inductive loop will take a long time to show up on motorways, again down to capital investment vs gain. Most likely to show up as a niche where you have vehicles doing a high mileage, but periodically and predictably showing up at certain spots for a quick top up (think bus stops, traffic lights on bus lanes, taxi queues). Again this is down to the capex involved in digging up the road, and laying wires


Yes, except I have lost count of the number of times the M6 has been dug up, kind of seems to happen very regularly.

There are many inventor solutions doing the rounds including moles to put in the wires, sink in tarmac wires, place on top mats with charging panels,..

Whether any if these will be practical is unknowable without trucks etc, but if any of them work the whole process would go very quickly.

The obvious candidate for this are the railways, but near me there is a big crew struggling to put in an over head wire system on the railway, working, nights, weekends, making the train service unusable for a lot of users who are offered buses in lieu of trains.

Time to scrap the whole overhead wire nonsense & make battery trains, but the politicians seem determined to put in overhead wire trains no matter the cost, inconvenience & high maintenance costs or the near certainty of being scrapped in the short term.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#152448

Postby BobbyD » July 15th, 2018, 1:34 pm

TUK020 wrote:Inductive loop will take a long time to show up on motorways, again down to capital investment vs gain. Most likely to show up as a niche where you have vehicles doing a high mileage, but periodically and predictably showing up at certain spots for a quick top up (think bus stops, traffic lights on bus lanes, taxi queues). Again this is down to the capex involved in digging up the road, and laying wires.



This I'm not so sure about, bus stations, bus lanes and taxi ranks obviously would make sense, not sure what the returns at buss stops would be like- presumably dependant on the type of route... but the widespread roll out in those situations would provide a reasonable production and installation base for domestic car dynamic charging to build off, and if we are on a green kick the effect on the feasibility of electric lorries is worth considering.

Future range is going to have as big a say in the cost benefit analysis as anything else. If the market were created by making all cars come fitted with wireless charging capability conforming to a billable standard then I think it could go either way. In long thin countries like the UK the benefit of equipping a few major North/South routes could be dramatic. In countries like France with significant toll road usage it could be rolled in to an existing payment structure... and there's no reason why retrofitting should be a major problem given a decent design.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#152489

Postby dspp » July 15th, 2018, 3:33 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
Time to scrap the whole overhead wire nonsense & make battery trains, but the politicians seem determined to put in overhead wire trains no matter the cost, inconvenience & high maintenance costs or the near certainty of being scrapped in the short term.

Regards,


o2000,

Please tell me you are not a serious engineer. Please tell me you don't deal with high power anything.

Why do you keep making such confident technical assertions about technical matters where you fairly obviously don't even know what you don't know ?

It is investors like you, investing in the way that you do, that create overpriced bubbles and thereby make momentum trading strategies viable. This is not necessarily a good thing as it leads to quite large amounts of capital destruction via extended periods of capital mis-allocation.

regards, dspp

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#152502

Postby odysseus2000 » July 15th, 2018, 4:54 pm

Please tell me you are not a serious engineer. Please tell me you don't deal with high power anything.

Why do you keep making such confident technical assertions about technical matters where you fairly obviously don't even know what you don't know ?

It is investors like you, investing in the way that you do, that create overpriced bubbles and thereby make momentum trading strategies viable. This is not necessarily a good thing as it leads to quite large amounts of capital destruction via extended periods of capital mis-allocation.

regards, dspp


My belief in battery powered trains is based on reading of UK & other nation trials. See e.g.:

https://www.railway-technology.com/feat ... w-5723499/

In the railways we have large areas, stations etc that could provide the solar power to fuel trains, storing in the grid or with local batteries as needed.

The current electrification near me is for the Manchester to Blackpool railway, a service that moves no, or very little freight, & is predominantly passengers only. The new service if it ever works will increase speeds & reduce journey times by a few %. Why could this not all be done with batteries?

Regarding markets & how they operate, yes it is all about emotion & this creates periods of high growth, other periods of low growth & it would be best if it didn't work like this, but unless you take the emotions out of people this is how it works.

Engineers & scientist hate that the world works like this, wishing it had the certainty & calculability of the natural laws that govern their own work, but it doesn't.

So one either gets depressed hating how the world works or one learns how it works, why it works this way & how to profit from it & live a good life.

Regards,

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#154518

Postby BobbyD » July 23rd, 2018, 8:36 pm

Hear the trumpets hear the pipers...

Driving: Nick Rufford test-drives the all-electric Porsche Taycan

...I’m driving a new type of Porsche that runs on battery power alone. Until it goes into production next year, it is regarded by the US highway authority as an experimental vehicle and requires an escort...

...I explain to curious onlookers at Malibu pier that the car is a test mule for a model, yet to be launched, called the Taycan, from Porsche’s electric skunk works. It may be only a demonstrator, but it is far enough advanced to show how fast electric car technology is changing. The Taycan will operate on 800 volts — about twice that of Elon Musk’s Tesla Model S — with a claimed charging time of 15 minutes to cover 200 miles, or less than half the time of the Model S...

...An alliance of the Volkswagen Group (including Porsche and Audi), BMW, Ford and Daimler, the owner of Mercedes, is investing hundreds of millions building an “ultra-fast” charging network that the companies say will be ready across Europe by 2020. There are improvements in other areas too...

...The big players have effectively ganged up on Musk and in doing so have created a dilemma for consumers. It will be a while before the winning technology emerges — a good reason for potential customers to bide their time...

...Even Musk admits that battery technology has advanced at breakneck speed since he launched the Model S six years ago, saying that “2012 [battery] chemistry can’t take the charge rate of current chemistry”.



- https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/driv ... -smfft092d

There is no confirmation stage on the email if you need to register to read it, just plonk any address in and you'll proceed to the article.

Preorder yours now for £2500...

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#154553

Postby odysseus2000 » July 23rd, 2018, 10:56 pm

BobbyD
It will be a while before the winning technology emerges — a good reason for potential customers to bide their time...



yes, but what about folk who want a porsche, do they buy a gas one now or wait for this electric model.

If enough start waiting Porsche have a problem.

Where are the batteries coming from & how good is the supply chain?

Meanwhile what are the margins on the electric, plus if this is all the Germany auto makers how does Porsche get folk to pay their prices when the same tech is in a VW?

Regards,

BobbyD
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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#154558

Postby BobbyD » July 23rd, 2018, 11:42 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
BobbyD
It will be a while before the winning technology emerges — a good reason for potential customers to bide their time...



yes, but what about folk who want a porsche, do they buy a gas one now or wait for this electric model.

If enough start waiting Porsche have a problem.


They really don't. Porsche make money at about the same rate which Tesla burn it...

odysseus2000 wrote:Meanwhile what are the margins on the electric, plus if this is all the Germany auto makers how does Porsche get folk to pay their prices when the same tech is in a VW?


Porsche are VW...

...but yeah the quick charge looks like a critical threat to Tesla. If only they'd made hay while the sun shone.

They are talking about Level 4 autonomous in the Porsche as well. Generation improvements in Tesla's two front facing technologies, and from a company which actually knows how to produce cars. Maybe Musk had a test drive too... might explain his recent irritable state.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#154575

Postby TUK020 » July 24th, 2018, 7:02 am

Article in FT today about Ofgem's proposal for variable charge rates for electric cars.

Google search on:
Ofgem pushes ‘flexible charging’ plan for electric vehicles

Key reason cited is to allow more rapid uptake of EV's. Talked about plan to get to 50% vehicles sold (not installed base) by 2030 being electric.

Note that this is considerably slower than the rapid scenario in the Shell transition report linked earlier in the thread. That talked about 50% vehicles sold WW by 2030, and 100% in US & WE, being electric.

There is also coverage of this in the Telegraph, but with a considerably less balanced headline.


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