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5G what is reality

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UncleEbenezer
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Re: 5G what is reality

#285266

Postby UncleEbenezer » February 18th, 2020, 7:14 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Does anyone have first hand Information or a link as to whether the US complaints against 5G and Huawei are true or are they just trying to protect US manufacturers?

It's not entirely either. At least not directly.

The threat that started the whole thing off is entirely trumped up. The fact that sensitive data are encrypted makes it mathematically impossible for the Huawei gear widely used in our communications infrastructure for many years to spy on our communications. The post-hoc "it's not just spying on us" rationalisations are feeble, too.

But neither is it obviously about US manufacturers. Sure, delay 5G and they have some more time to catch up, but right now the nearest Western rivals to Huawei are not American at all, they're Scandinavian - Nokia and Ericsson.

There are some further possible reasons for this:

(1) The US government's own spying on us all. Historically they had "lawful intercept" built into network infrastructure. Encryption defeats that, and legislators have been arguing about how to deal with it: apart from the minority who genuinely believe in privacy, the argument is about what is possible, with a lot of wishful thinking about a government-only backdoor. The Aussie government recently passed the first overt backdoor legislation that pushes privacy to DIY.

The network infrastructure can't itself spy on encrypted traffic (unless the implementation of the encryption is defective). The role it could conceivably play is as an accomplice to a spy on your 'puter or 'phone, to help smuggle data home undetected. There's one government whose companies dominate Windows and Mac, Android and IOS, and it ain't China!

(2) An IP land-grab for the future. 5G deployment will lead to an explosion of new applications and devices. Most will be dross, but among them will be some gold, and the effort will give rise to lots of IP, and of course patents. The more Trump can hold back 5G deployment in Europe (and Asia), the more of that IP land-grab goes to US companies.

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Re: 5G what is reality

#285278

Postby odysseus2000 » February 18th, 2020, 8:49 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:Does anyone have first hand Information or a link as to whether the US complaints against 5G and Huawei are true or are they just trying to protect US manufacturers?

It's not entirely either. At least not directly.

The threat that started the whole thing off is entirely trumped up. The fact that sensitive data are encrypted makes it mathematically impossible for the Huawei gear widely used in our communications infrastructure for many years to spy on our communications. The post-hoc "it's not just spying on us" rationalisations are feeble, too.

But neither is it obviously about US manufacturers. Sure, delay 5G and they have some more time to catch up, but right now the nearest Western rivals to Huawei are not American at all, they're Scandinavian - Nokia and Ericsson.

There are some further possible reasons for this:

(1) The US government's own spying on us all. Historically they had "lawful intercept" built into network infrastructure. Encryption defeats that, and legislators have been arguing about how to deal with it: apart from the minority who genuinely believe in privacy, the argument is about what is possible, with a lot of wishful thinking about a government-only backdoor. The Aussie government recently passed the first overt backdoor legislation that pushes privacy to DIY.

The network infrastructure can't itself spy on encrypted traffic (unless the implementation of the encryption is defective). The role it could conceivably play is as an accomplice to a spy on your 'puter or 'phone, to help smuggle data home undetected. There's one government whose companies dominate Windows and Mac, Android and IOS, and it ain't China!

(2) An IP land-grab for the future. 5G deployment will lead to an explosion of new applications and devices. Most will be dross, but among them will be some gold, and the effort will give rise to lots of IP, and of course patents. The more Trump can hold back 5G deployment in Europe (and Asia), the more of that IP land-grab goes to US companies.


Thank you for that super interesting post.

I had missed the new Australian law which looks to me like a guaranteed method for trouble:

https://www.wired.com/story/australia-e ... al-impact/

All that would be needed for abuse under this act is a bent police person working for criminals and creating some plausible context for investigation and then feeding information to criminals who would have a gold mine of opportunities for crimes while themselves having the readies to pay for their own communications to be made unreadable.

I have been following some of the right to repair legislation battles in the US that are chronicled by a US repair shop owner (Louis Rossman on youtube). The videos of hearings on right to repair that he has posted show legislators who have very serious short comings and lobbyists who are focused on circumventing sense such as arguing that replacing a battery in a phone allows a repair shop to violate the customers privacy even if the repair shop does have the users password. The exact opposite of what the US police found when they had an iPhone but no way to access info on it and Apple refused to build a way in, arguing that if created it would soon make all iPhones insecure as the technology of entry would not be restricted to this one case. Bill Gates and microsoft seem happy to allow law enforcement access but for now, as I understand it, Tim Cook has refused.

Another argument that Musk was making about 5g is the extent to which it consume rf spectrum bandwidth, he called it greedy or similar.

It is all kind of strange how the US has fallen behind China in these key 21st century technologies while at the same time the FED which was against Facebook creating a crypto currency has now been talking about creating a Fed block chain currency. All of these cryptos, as I understand it, will benefit greatly from 5G and meanwhile as far as I know China has banned bitcoin.

I may not be finding any investment opportunities but I am learning a ton of stuff that in the by and by will be potentially very useful.

I welcome any corrections to my understandings or points that I am missing.

Regards,

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Re: 5G what is reality

#285288

Postby dspp » February 18th, 2020, 9:31 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote: The fact that sensitive data are encrypted makes it mathematically impossible for the Huawei gear widely used in our communications infrastructure for many years to spy on our communications.


UE,

1. The maths is not quite like that. If they know all the primes, and have faster computers than us (and they seem to be doing pretty well at quantum computing), and can tap off the raw signal cleanly, then they can do quite well. And if they can identify a weakness in our implementation of the maths (and there are ordinarily weaknesses), or get a weakness introduced (and if there is access to the software upgrade channel, that might be easier than we'd like) then their ability to decrypt becomes better. At heart that is what Crypto AG did.

2. There is meta-level analysis to be taken into account. If one cannot read the contents, then simply identifying who the sender is and who the receivers(s) are, and the volume of traffic, and the time of day, and etc, all have great significance.

3. And then there is the ability to insert a "switch off" payload into all/much of our network at an interesting moment.

These things are not quite as simple as one would like to hope. Oh for the time of the 2p piece and an AA box. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/t ... 10672.html

regards, dspp

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Re: 5G what is reality

#285290

Postby AleisterCrowley » February 18th, 2020, 9:48 pm

dspp:2. There is meta-level analysis to be taken into account. If one cannot read the contents, then simply identifying who the sender is and who the receivers(s) are, and the volume of traffic, and the time of day, and etc, all have great significance

True, 'the authorities' can get a lot of info from call data records, basically who phoned whom, when, and approximately* where

*accuracy of location depends on many things - could be as good as a few metres or as bad a 35km radius

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Re: 5G what is reality

#285299

Postby servodude » February 18th, 2020, 11:06 pm

AleisterCrowley wrote:dspp:2. There is meta-level analysis to be taken into account. If one cannot read the contents, then simply identifying who the sender is and who the receivers(s) are, and the volume of traffic, and the time of day, and etc, all have great significance

True, 'the authorities' can get a lot of info from call data records, basically who phoned whom, when, and approximately* where

*accuracy of location depends on many things - could be as good as a few metres or as bad a 35km radius


They can get a lot of info even if you are not phoning people
https://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/02/heres ... -the-tube/
- in essence your phone wifi MAC can be recorded by any router (or router style thing) that is in ear shot
- same for cell tower triangulation, "location services" etc

Once of the concerns is that while there's justifiably a lot of rigour about "data" security on a network, there is a lot less about who has access to the meta-data; both on active usage and at a general systems operation level.

- sd

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Re: 5G what is reality

#285417

Postby gryffron » February 19th, 2020, 2:36 pm

AleisterCrowley wrote:*accuracy of location depends on many things - could be as good as a few metres or as bad a 35km radius

They can locate a cellphone to a particular flat in a towerblock. It must be true, I've seen it on the TV.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: 5G what is reality

#285424

Postby AleisterCrowley » February 19th, 2020, 3:04 pm

Certainly possible, particularly if someone is using home femtocell!

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Re: 5G what is reality

#285427

Postby dspp » February 19th, 2020, 3:10 pm

AleisterCrowley wrote:Certainly possible, particularly if someone is using home femtocell!


And if the network eqpt manufacturer uses their backdoors to smuggle a phone-home payload onto the handset .........

It is worth remembering the old Yiddish expression, "the thief's cap burns him". The reason Western (etc) intelligence agencies tend to be worried about such exploits and vulnerabilities is because maybe perhaps they have a track record in using them ...

regards, dspp

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Re: 5G what is reality

#285441

Postby AleisterCrowley » February 19th, 2020, 3:44 pm

Well, if anyone really wants to send something totally securely, there's always the ultra high tech method involving pen, paper, and a bag of Scrabble tiles... [and a lighter]

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Re: 5G what is reality

#285459

Postby PeterGray » February 19th, 2020, 5:04 pm

I'm going to be using morse and an enigma machine. No way anyone is going crack that!

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Re: 5G what is reality

#285464

Postby dspp » February 19th, 2020, 5:12 pm

PeterGray wrote:I'm going to be using morse and an enigma machine. No way anyone is going crack that!


mmmmm .........

https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/we-wa ... en-minutes
https://www.quora.com/How-long-would-En ... e-Internet

simples

:)

dspp

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Re: 5G what is reality

#286452

Postby odysseus2000 » February 24th, 2020, 5:19 pm

Interesting article by Farage on 5G and his fears regarding it, which seem mostly based on his belief of conspiracy between the Chinese and various high ranking folk in the UK. I find it difficult to get any sense out of it or the comments as it seems to me that most of the arguments put forwards here are based on ignorance and no understanding of the underlying tech, but others may disagree:

https://www.newsweek.com/huawei-boris-j ... 1582387995

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Re: 5G what is reality

#286536

Postby UncleEbenezer » February 25th, 2020, 8:14 am

AleisterCrowley wrote:dspp:2. There is meta-level analysis to be taken into account. If one cannot read the contents, then simply identifying who the sender is and who the receivers(s) are, and the volume of traffic, and the time of day, and etc, all have great significance

True, 'the authorities' can get a lot of info from call data records, basically who phoned whom, when, and approximately* where

*accuracy of location depends on many things - could be as good as a few metres or as bad a 35km radius


Indeed, our (UK) government has spent a lot of time[1] and hot air debating and legislating how much such data to require service providers to record and retain. The service providers themselves were of course unhappy about being required to act as the Stasi: even if they agree with the surveillance state, it's quite a logistical burden on telcos and ISPs.

If the Chinese government want that metadata on Brits, there are easier ways to go about it than to destroy the first Chinese high-tech bigco to be not merely competitive with but ahead of its Western counterparts. They can collect it openly and legally, as Google does (and even emails you if you let it - for example to invite you to review somewhere you've just been).

servodude wrote:They can get a lot of info even if you are not phoning people
https://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/02/heres ... -the-tube/
- in essence your phone wifi MAC can be recorded by any router (or router style thing) that is in ear shot
- same for cell tower triangulation, "location services" etc
- sd


Up to a point, Lord Copper. Some of us travel with wifi turned off, but of course that's not the only thing you can track on a phone. I expect that'll be why those with something to hide (and not totally dumb) use 'burner' phones - and have done since long before phones (or even 'puters) had wifi.

And in any case, the core of the network (where our Trump-vassals have banned Huawei) is not where you'd listen for devices.

[1] Before it got distracted with the dreaded B-word.

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Re: 5G what is reality

#286547

Postby AleisterCrowley » February 25th, 2020, 9:06 am

The network can force a phone into connected mode, and even in the case of an old 2G-only phone there will be periodic location updates where the phone has a brief connection so you can see which cell it's on, and how far away it is from the cell (~600m resolution)

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Re: 5G what is reality

#286682

Postby Lanark » February 25th, 2020, 7:04 pm

dspp wrote:
3. And then there is the ability to insert a "switch off" payload into all/much of our network at an interesting moment.


This I think is a really important point, right now Huawei are just about the only 5G supplier, so there is a danger that we setup a monoculture of 5G Huawei kit running most of the internet.

Monocultures are very bad, both in nature and in technology, when somebody finds a weakness which they probably will, then they can pwn everything!

Governments are well aware of this which is why they are so very keen for people to buy non-Huawei gear, however they are just not quite so fast to buy it themselves when it means paying 5 X the price.

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Re: 5G what is reality

#287559

Postby odysseus2000 » February 28th, 2020, 10:39 pm

Some general info on Intel's hardware for 5G:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/432772 ... ent=link-0

Regards,

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Re: 5G what is reality

#287950

Postby UncleEbenezer » March 2nd, 2020, 1:38 am

odysseus2000 wrote:Some general info on Intel's hardware for 5G:
Regards,


Interesting. It lists partnerships with Western "Usual Suspects", but also with ZTE. I thought Trump had banned doing business with ZTE even before the nonsense on Huawei started.

Intel is of course at a different level in the food chain to Huawei an its competitors. But it will have benefited from holding back deployment to give it more time to build a presence in the field.

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Re: 5G what is reality

#288676

Postby UncleEbenezer » March 5th, 2020, 11:58 am

OK, here's a UK company doing nicely out of 5G. In a niche perhaps comparable to Intel's as a second-order supplier to the telcos.

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Re: 5G what is reality

#288776

Postby odysseus2000 » March 5th, 2020, 6:56 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:OK, here's a UK company doing nicely out of 5G. In a niche perhaps comparable to Intel's as a second-order supplier to the telcos.


Thanks for the heads up, lovely results & well received by the market, roaring on a hard day for equities.

Regards,

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Re: 5G what is reality

#326054

Postby odysseus2000 » July 14th, 2020, 1:22 pm

Huawei 5g must not have any hardware in the UK 5g system, existing hardware has to be removed:

https://twitter.com/carldinnen/status/1 ... 58887?s=20

Very polarising decision between folk who think it is a National Security and issue and folk like Lord Sugar who think it is all about protecting
the US tech sector:

https://twitter.com/Lord_Sugar/status/1 ... 26625?s=20

Not sure what opportunities there are here. I doubt replacement hardware will come from anything but the big US corporations but the orders won't be large enough to impact earnings.

If I am wrong, please post why.

Regards,


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