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EU, Brexit and Immigration

The Big Picture Place
ursaminortaur
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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#507739

Postby ursaminortaur » June 16th, 2022, 9:26 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
PeterGray wrote:The EU system deprives the UK electorate of direct action to remove laws they don't like.

Yes, of course. That's the consequence of working together. You've just proved my point again, you really seem unable to understand.

Not much point in going on here really, I think!


You seem to have finally conceded my point.

The next question is did the UK being in the EU lead to better prosperity & increased living standards for the UK population?

The answer is no.

We now have long waiting lists for health care & such poverty that people have to rely on food banks. In the most prosperous times ever folk in the uk have to rely on food banks. Amazingly bad!

Whether this poverty is due to the EU or other factors can be discussed but post Brexit some one can complain to their MP & threaten to vote them out if things do not improve. Nothing may change but the elected & the electors are directly coupled together & the MPcan not argue that he/she can do nothing because the EU makes policy.

Regards,


The massive increase in foodbanks has occurred under the Tory and coalition governments since 2010

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-sickening-truth-about-food-banks-that-the-tories-don-t-want-you-to-know-10195840.html

And, lest we are in any doubt that this is directly linked to the coalition government’s policies targeting those on benefits, we just need to look at the increase in food banks themselves which have risen from 56 in 2010 to 445 in 2015 – an increase of almost 700 per cent . And this is only the tip of the iceberg. The total number of organisations providing emergency food assistance is estimated to be over 1,500 according to a 2014 parliamentary inquiry into hunger in the UK.

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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#507740

Postby Hallucigenia » June 16th, 2022, 9:26 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:I am on the voting register in the Speakers constituency & all the major opposition parties do not put up candidates against the speaker.


At least you'll only be in the Speaker's constituency for a Parliament or two and then it will move on elsewhere. All this talk of democracy is all very well in theory, but in practice one vote every 5 years can't possibly be granular enough for "the people" to effectively control the executive, modern government is just too complicated for an Athenian approach to democracy. Let alone allowing for future events - nobody voted in 2019 for "best person to manage a Covid-19 pandemic", and by 2024 Covid won't be a determining factor to change many votes - and yet it is the defining event of this Parliament.

And democracy in this country just doesn't work for most people - although in many respects I'm a swing voter and I always make a point of voting, I've only ever lived in constituencies that have had huge majorities so Benn's questions feel pretty moot to me, I might as well be living in the Speaker's constituency for all the influence I have on Westminster. All I can do is vote against the incumbent to try and reduce his majority and make it more of a swing constituency, regardless of my personal views. In fact I've had more influence on European elections than on Westminster.

So I think if you're trying to make a claim about democratic legitimacy then you need to support replacing FPTP with some kind of proportional representation. But even then, democracy means you don't get your way 49% of the time.

Which I think is the point that Peter was trying to make. And even then you have to hope that you have a wise and generous government, that still takes the views of the 49% (or 48%...) into account even whilst implementing the will of the majority. The tyranny of the majority is just as much a tyranny as any other. Which is the point I've been trying to make in the main Brexit thread about 70% wanting a Norway Brexit whilst only 20% wanted the Belarus Brexit we've ended up with.

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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#507742

Postby Hallucigenia » June 16th, 2022, 9:31 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:The next question is did the UK being in the EU lead to better prosperity & increased living standards for the UK population?

The answer is no.

We now have long waiting lists for health care & such poverty that people have to rely on food banks. In the most prosperous times ever folk in the uk have to rely on food banks. Amazingly bad!

Whether this poverty is due to the EU or other factors can be discussed


I'm sorry, but you're just showing up your complete lack of knowledge here. In the 1970s we were the sick man of Europe, we didn't have a few foodbanks we were calling in the IMF.

We then had a period of relative prosperity thanks to North Sea oil and membership of the Common/Single Market, but already since Brexit we've seen a 15% drop in trade, 4% drop in GDP and business investment flatlining (see my recent post in the main Brexit thread for references).

In any case, the person who has more influence on UK trade policy than anybody else is unelected bureaucrat Lord Frost - how do I vote to get rid of him?

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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#507772

Postby odysseus2000 » June 16th, 2022, 11:33 pm

There is a clear misunderstanding of what I am saying.

I am not saying that the UK was in a great state before we joined the common market.

Nor am I saying that if we hadn't joined the common market things would be better.

Nor am I saying that because of Brexit things in the UK will automatically get better for everyone.

I am saying that since we have been in the EU, the UK has not become a land flowing with milk and honey and that the conditions for many UK residents have been getting worse with things like hugely expanded food banks and hugely expanded waiting lists for all medical procedures.

How can things be improved?

Short of a revolution or serious civil disorder, such as the women's suffrage movement employed, the route to improvement is political and with Brexit there is no convenient excuse that "we can not help because of the EU."

If you are not happy you can now complain to your MP and if nothing happens you can migrate to other parties, just as the Whigs declined to be replaced by Labour, so can the current parties be replaced with others. Most of the mass improvements in conditions in the UK were brought into existence by the 19th century Chartists campaign for political reform. It took a long time but it eventually worked as there was a direct link between the MP and the voter, in many cases the would be voter as universal voting rights did not reach the whole strata of society till well into the 1920's.

I am optimistic that the UK system will eventually right wrongs and that better politicians will emerge and steer us past the many rocks, reefs and storms of the world.

Regards,

ursaminortaur
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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#507782

Postby ursaminortaur » June 17th, 2022, 12:19 am

odysseus2000 wrote:There is a clear misunderstanding of what I am saying.

I am not saying that the UK was in a great state before we joined the common market.

Nor am I saying that if we hadn't joined the common market things would be better.

Nor am I saying that because of Brexit things in the UK will automatically get better for everyone.

I am saying that since we have been in the EU, the UK has not become a land flowing with milk and honey and that the conditions for many UK residents have been getting worse with things like hugely expanded food banks and hugely expanded waiting lists for all medical procedures.

How can things be improved?

Short of a revolution or serious civil disorder, such as the women's suffrage movement employed, the route to improvement is political and with Brexit there is no convenient excuse that "we can not help because of the EU."

If you are not happy you can now complain to your MP and if nothing happens you can migrate to other parties, just as the Whigs declined to be replaced by Labour, so can the current parties be replaced with others. Most of the mass improvements in conditions in the UK were brought into existence by the 19th century Chartists campaign for political reform. It took a long time but it eventually worked as there was a direct link between the MP and the voter, in many cases the would be voter as universal voting rights did not reach the whole strata of society till well into the 1920's.

I am optimistic that the UK system will eventually right wrongs and that better politicians will emerge and steer us past the many rocks, reefs and storms of the world.

Regards,


The Whigs became the Liberals in the 1850s (with some then breaking away to become the Liberal Unionists in 1886 who later joined with the Conservatives).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whigs_(British_political_party)

Between the 1680s and the 1850s, the Whigs contested power with their rivals, the Tories. The Whigs merged into the new Liberal Party in the 1850s, and other Whigs left the Liberal Party in 1886 to form the Liberal Unionist Party, which merged into the Liberals' rival, the modern day Conservative Party, in 1912.

Labour didn't emerge until much later being founded in 1900 and only really took off after the franchise was massively increased by the Representation of the People Act 1918.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representation_of_the_People_Act_1918

The Representation of the People Act 1918 was an Act of Parliament passed to reform the electoral system in Great Britain and Ireland. It is sometimes known as the Fourth Reform Act.[1] The Act extended the franchise in parliamentary elections, also known as the right to vote, to men aged over 21, whether or not they owned property, and to women aged over 30 who resided in the constituency or occupied land or premises with a rateable value above £5, or whose husbands did.[2][3] At the same time, it extended the local government franchise to include women aged over 21 on the same terms as men.[4]: xxv  It came into effect at the 1918 general election.

As a result of the Act, the male electorate was extended by 5.2 million[2] to 12.9 million.[5] The female electorate was 8.5 million.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_(UK)#Origins_and_the_Independent_Labour_Party_(1860%E2%80%931900)

With the Representation of the People Act 1918, almost all adult men (excepting only peers, criminals and lunatics) and most women over the age of thirty were given the right to vote, almost tripling the British electorate at a stroke, from 7.7 million in 1912 to 21.4 million in 1918. This set the scene for a surge in Labour representation in parliament.[39] The Communist Party of Great Britain was refused affiliation to the Labour Party between 1921 and 1923.[40]

Meanwhile, the Liberal Party declined rapidly, and the party also suffered a catastrophic split which allowed the Labour Party to gain much of the Liberals' support.[41] With the Liberals thus in disarray, Labour won 142 seats in 1922, making it the second-largest political group in the House of Commons and the official opposition to the Conservative government. After the election Ramsay MacDonald was voted the first official leader of the Labour Party.
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The 1923 general election was fought on the Conservatives' protectionist proposals, but although they got the most votes and remained the largest party, they lost their majority in parliament, necessitating the formation of a government supporting free trade. Thus, with the acquiescence of Asquith's Liberals, Ramsay MacDonald became the first ever Labour Prime Minister in January 1924, forming the first Labour government, despite Labour only having 191 MPs (less than a third of the House of Commons).


Given that there isn't anyway to massively increase the franchise again and the fact that the FPTP system favours the two major parties it is difficult to see any new party growing enough to replace them UK wide. Though nationalist parties may do so in particular areas as the SNP has in Scotland by pointing out the English domination of the UK and calling for independence.

I suppose there is a small possibility that a minority Labour government with LibDem support might bring in PR after winning the next election which might then well lead to the broad party coalitions making up the Labour and Conservative parties splitting and allow a realignment in British politics going forward. However both Conservatives and Labour have traditionally been wary of PR for precisely that reason ie that it would likely lead to the parties splitting.

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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#507786

Postby servodude » June 17th, 2022, 1:12 am

ursaminortaur wrote:However both Conservatives and Labour have traditionally been wary of PR for precisely that reason ie that it would likely lead to the parties splitting.


So when the parties fracture and split under their own steam.... ?

Labour have been doing that for longer, but your current Tory encumbents got where they are by finding a couple of wedges to drive at 90deg to traditional party lines; I can't see either as a homogoneous political force in the traditional sense any more.

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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#507870

Postby odysseus2000 » June 17th, 2022, 11:13 am

The point I was making was that at one time the uk was governed either by whigs or tories.

In the by & by the uk became governed by either labour or conservatives. Huge numbers of things made this happen, not least being the demographic who could vote.

I have no idea what happens next & yes it is hard for a new party to enter the system due to the first past the post system, but change can happen & imho change is more likely post Brexit than pre Brexit & if the uk is to prosper there has to be change.

Regards,

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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#507877

Postby murraypaul » June 17th, 2022, 11:49 am

odysseus2000 wrote:Did you cast a vote for the president of the European Parliament?

No, neither did I & that is the definition of a totalitarian state: You can’t vote them out!


I didn't cast a vote for Boris Johnson either, only his constituents did.

The president of the European Parliament is elected by the members of parliament, who are voted for.

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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#507886

Postby BobbyD » June 17th, 2022, 12:37 pm

murraypaul wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:Did you cast a vote for the president of the European Parliament?

No, neither did I & that is the definition of a totalitarian state: You can’t vote them out!


I didn't cast a vote for Boris Johnson either, only his constituents did.

The president of the European Parliament is elected by the members of parliament, who are voted for.


You voted for the Queen though, right ...and for the Lords Spiritual and Temporal?

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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#507964

Postby XFool » June 17th, 2022, 6:47 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:The next question is did the UK being in the EU lead to better prosperity & increased living standards for the UK population?

The answer is no.

Is it? You sound very sure, how do you know? One of the main points of our being in the EU was the freedom of trade and movement of people etc. This sought of thing is usually sited as a positive contributor to a stronger economy and greater wealth. Why do you suppose it to be so different with our membership of the EU?

odysseus2000 wrote:We now have long waiting lists for health care & such poverty that people have to rely on food banks. In the most prosperous times ever folk in the uk have to rely on food banks. Amazingly bad!

Indeed yes! What has this to do with the EU? It's our country. Now that we have left the EU are you expecting these issue to rapidly be overcome? If not, what is your point regarding the EU?

odysseus2000 wrote:Whether this poverty is due to the EU or other factors can be discussed but post Brexit some one can complain to their MP & threaten to vote them out if things do not improve. Nothing may change but the elected & the electors are directly coupled together & the MPcan not argue that he/she can do nothing because the EU makes policy.

Um... So far, the EU is still being blamed even though we have left. I rather expect this sort of thing to continue; as an article in The Atlantic I posted a link to the other day said: It's too politically valuable to give up.

I suspect some of our politicians will be hiding behind "the EU" for as long as they can. How long the electorate who voted Brexit will accept this excuse, I do not know. What happens if they stop accepting it as an explanation remains to be seen. Still, they also have "immigrants" to blame, so our politicians can keep the balls in the air for some years to come.

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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#507972

Postby odysseus2000 » June 17th, 2022, 7:18 pm

XFool wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:The next question is did the UK being in the EU lead to better prosperity & increased living standards for the UK population?

The answer is no.

Is it? You sound very sure, how do you know? One of the main points of our being in the EU was the freedom of trade and movement of people etc. This sought of thing is usually sited as a positive contributor to a stronger economy and greater wealth. Why do you suppose it to be so different with our membership of the EU?

odysseus2000 wrote:We now have long waiting lists for health care & such poverty that people have to rely on food banks. In the most prosperous times ever folk in the uk have to rely on food banks. Amazingly bad!

Indeed yes! What has this to do with the EU? It's our country. Now that we have left the EU are you expecting these issue to rapidly be overcome? If not, what is your point regarding the EU?

odysseus2000 wrote:Whether this poverty is due to the EU or other factors can be discussed but post Brexit some one can complain to their MP & threaten to vote them out if things do not improve. Nothing may change but the elected & the electors are directly coupled together & the MPcan not argue that he/she can do nothing because the EU makes policy.

Um... So far, the EU is still being blamed even though we have left. I rather expect this sort of thing to continue; as an article in The Atlantic I posted a link to the other day said: It's too politically valuable to give up.

I suspect some of our politicians will be hiding behind "the EU" for as long as they can. How long the electorate who voted Brexit will accept this excuse, I do not know. What happens if they stop accepting it as an explanation remains to be seen. Still, they also have "immigrants" to blame, so our politicians can keep the balls in the air for some years to come.


You are missing my point.

I am simply arguing that the UK post brexit has a direct link between the governed and the governors without any third party EU to distract the governors.

Whether UK politicians can improve things remains to be seen and there are a sizeable number who don't want to try and want instead to return to the EU.

I have no idea what happens but the direct link between citizens and politicians is imho more likely to lead to positive change than what we had as a member of the EU due to this feedback loop.

Regards,

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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#507977

Postby XFool » June 17th, 2022, 7:42 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:You are missing my point.

I am simply arguing that the UK post brexit has a direct link between the governed and the governors without any third party EU to distract the governors.

Whether UK politicians can improve things remains to be seen and there are a sizeable number who don't want to try and want instead to return to the EU.

I have no idea what happens but the direct link between citizens and politicians is imho more likely to lead to positive change than what we had as a member of the EU due to this feedback loop.

OK. I'm with you now.

We will just have to wait and see if this works out. And if it doesn't, what then?

I still cannot see how the EU itself made our system so poor. I feel other issues are involved. For myself, as time goes on, I feel myself more and more disenchanted with the electorate, rather than the more popular disenchantment with politicians. This hardly means I am enamoured with the present lot!

But then, perhaps that's the point: We get the politicians we deserve - and voted for.

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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#508130

Postby odysseus2000 » June 18th, 2022, 5:24 pm

XFool wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:You are missing my point.

I am simply arguing that the UK post brexit has a direct link between the governed and the governors without any third party EU to distract the governors.

Whether UK politicians can improve things remains to be seen and there are a sizeable number who don't want to try and want instead to return to the EU.

I have no idea what happens but the direct link between citizens and politicians is imho more likely to lead to positive change than what we had as a member of the EU due to this feedback loop.

OK. I'm with you now.

We will just have to wait and see if this works out. And if it doesn't, what then?

I still cannot see how the EU itself made our system so poor. I feel other issues are involved. For myself, as time goes on, I feel myself more and more disenchanted with the electorate, rather than the more popular disenchantment with politicians. This hardly means I am enamoured with the present lot!

But then, perhaps that's the point: We get the politicians we deserve - and voted for.



What we had in the EU wasn’t imho anything to write home about.

If the current politicians can’t improve matters we will try others till we find ones that can.

As is we seem to have one side dominated by rich folk, the other lot dominated by union money.

Where are the State-persons who can make the country better and/or the EU better? As of now the whole region is in a secular decline.

Regards,

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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#508476

Postby XFool » June 20th, 2022, 2:37 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:What we had in the EU wasn’t imho anything to write home about.

If the current politicians can’t improve matters we will try others till we find ones that can.

How have "we" been doing so far? It may may not be anything like as easy as some hope or think. And I still can't see how leaving the EU can help. If this were the case there ought to be easily accessible and meaningful explanations lying around - instead of political exhortations and waffle.

odysseus2000 wrote:Where are the State-persons who can make the country better and/or the EU better? As of now the whole region is in a secular decline.

Well, we may be. Not sure about the EU. Anyway, "we" are of no consequence to the EU now.

Not sure I agree with everything in this, but interesting:

What Brexit Promised, and Boris Johnson Failed to Deliver

The Atlantic

Britain has taken back control but has yet to exercise much of it.

"Britain today is a poor and divided country. Parts of London and the southeast of England might be among the wealthiest places on the planet, but swaths of northern England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland are among Western Europe’s poorest. Barely a decade ago, the average Brit was as wealthy as the average German. Now they are about 15 percent poorer—and 30 percent worse off than the typical American."

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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#508548

Postby odysseus2000 » June 20th, 2022, 10:11 pm

We are a bull dog breed, adaptive, creative & resourceful. The EU are acting like they want a failed state on their border, a better incentive is hard to imagine.

The uk was never a passive, leave it to others nation, that is not our nature although lots of politicians want nothing more, but now they can not hide behind the EU.

There are lots of naysayers, but there always are & in the by & by we will regain our leadership role while the EU will continue to decline, till they have to start copying the uk or face more departures.

Regards,

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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#508549

Postby XFool » June 20th, 2022, 10:18 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:We are a bull dog breed, adaptive, creative & resourceful. The EU are acting like they want a failed state on their border, a better incentive is hard to imagine.

I suspect by now the EU have got other things on their mind than us!

odysseus2000 wrote:The uk was never a passive, leave it to others nation, that is not our nature although lots of politicians want nothing more, but now they can not hide behind the EU.

To me, it seems some are still trying to do this.

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Re: EU, Brexit and Immigration

#508555

Postby odysseus2000 » June 20th, 2022, 11:15 pm

XFool wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:We are a bull dog breed, adaptive, creative & resourceful. The EU are acting like they want a failed state on their border, a better incentive is hard to imagine.

I suspect by now the EU have got other things on their mind than us!

odysseus2000 wrote:The uk was never a passive, leave it to others nation, that is not our nature although lots of politicians want nothing more, but now they can not hide behind the EU.

To me, it seems some are still trying to do this.


It is abundantly clear that the UK needs to reform its political system and broaden MP's away from being career politicians where becoming an MP is a stepping stone to a future career and an opportunity to make a packet from extra jobs while in the house. The direct feedback between the elected and the electors is a mechanism through which this can happen, but it does require a functioning opposition and functioning media holding politicians to account on their policies rather than the current personality focus.

Regards,


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