Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site

Musk endeavours

The Big Picture Place
odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1535 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#229645

Postby odysseus2000 » June 15th, 2019, 7:46 am

redsturgeon wrote:Here is a nice objective review of a year's ownership of a Tesla 3 from an ex BMW M3 owner. He likes the car and would buy another but he is not impressed with the service from Tesla.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFMtl2JgxIo

His is a performance version which was $69k but he did receive $17k of rebates on that price, making it quite reasonable.

Very interesting to see some of the close up shots where you can see the paintwork...the orange peel looks awful and I doubt whether most decent car makers would put up with such a bad paint job.

John


Judging from the sentiments of this guy & many others it seems to me that Tesla have made a drivers car that is so attractive that they will over look issues because they love how the car makes them feel. This is an extraordinary achievement for such a young company operating in a world of established giants, showing not only how good Tesla have had to be to do this, but also the lameness of the competition & the complacency that has come from being paid for making stuff far inferior to what can be done.

If I had a choice between exciting but not yet fully smoothed & polished and a reverse situation of boring yet smooth & polished I would choose the former although many want the latter. If it comes to a stage where Tesla offer smooth polished & sexy it would be a no brainier Apple like situation for a good proportion of the affluent folk who need a car.

It will be interesting to see if the posters here who want perfection in all aspects of their purchases will be swayed to Tesla as the business develops or if some other manufacturer will capture their emotion & love for perfection.

Imho it is this battle between emotion & prudence that will ultimately determine how big Tesla becomes. So far I remain firmly in the camp that Tesla will become a real big business.

Regards,

PeterGray
Lemon Slice
Posts: 847
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 782 times
Been thanked: 343 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#229648

Postby PeterGray » June 15th, 2019, 8:40 am

If I had a choice between exciting but not yet fully smoothed & polished and a reverse situation of boring yet smooth & polished I would choose the former

I'm sure you would, and many others too.

However, the really big markets for cars are reliable shopping trolleys - get you to the supermarket with no fuss, and perhaps the odd longer trip, transports to work - mostly spent sitting in traffic, and for shuttling the kids to school - and yes, it would be better for everyone if they had to walk. I don't see Tesla even thinking about those markets at the moment.

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2178
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 885 times
Been thanked: 1017 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#229661

Postby Howard » June 15th, 2019, 9:30 am

PeterGray wrote:If I had a choice between exciting but not yet fully smoothed & polished and a reverse situation of boring yet smooth & polished I would choose the former

I'm sure you would, and many others too.

However, the really big markets for cars are reliable shopping trolleys - get you to the supermarket with no fuss, and perhaps the odd longer trip, transports to work - mostly spent sitting in traffic, and for shuttling the kids to school - and yes, it would be better for everyone if they had to walk. I don't see Tesla even thinking about those markets at the moment.


My impression is that many Tesla customers don't buy the car because they are interested in reducing pollution. Like the guys in the video they appear so wealthy that they also have a gas guzzler or two in their spacious garages. They are buying the car as a fun gadget. When it has a problem, they have a spare car or three to fall back on. As you infer, Tesla aren't interested in satisfying the average family market at the moment.

And, of course, they also appeal to the "dreamers" who will never be prepared to spend £40k+ on a premium car but are interested from a theoretical viewpoint.

Hopefully we will soon have a poster who has made the commitment to buy or lease a Tesla and who can comment on the reality of owning and driving the car in the UK. If Tesla's claims prove anywhere near true we should soon have an "invasion" of Model 3 cars here. We can all book a test drive and check them out.

regards

Howard

redsturgeon
Lemon Half
Posts: 8915
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:06 am
Has thanked: 1309 times
Been thanked: 3668 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#229671

Postby redsturgeon » June 15th, 2019, 10:14 am

I am lucky enough to have a back up car for when I make my first foray into the BEV world but waiting weeks for the simplest of fixes would not be realistic for most people who rely on their car for every day transport to work etc.

There seems to be little doubt that Tesla make some exciting and interesting (if geeky) cars but the main market is for reliable transport...look how many Toyota Corollas have been sold in the world vs more "interesting" cars like Triumph Stags or Alfa Romeos.

With the existing customer service issues I could never buy a Tesla.

John

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1535 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#229683

Postby odysseus2000 » June 15th, 2019, 11:23 am

Bob Lutz talks about Tesla defects and how he got GM to cure its problems:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a ... -bob-lutz/

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#229687

Postby BobbyD » June 15th, 2019, 11:45 am

Production of Tesla’s forthcoming HGV has been delayed until 2020, due to Tesla’s limited battery supply
Tesla’s CEO, Elon Musk, has confirmed that production of the brand’s Semi truck has been pushed back to 2020, following the firm’s inability to scale up its battery supply network. The all-electric HGV was supposed to reach the global market by the end of 2019, with a starting price of $150,000 (£113,000) and a range of 300 miles on a single charge.

...He continued, saying Tesla would do everything it can to increase battery production as quickly as possible. To do so, the firm will probably increase its operations further down its supply chain, with Musk suggesting expanding into the mining business to provide the necessary raw materials for battery cell production.


https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/106 ... ck-to-2020
Last edited by BobbyD on June 15th, 2019, 11:58 am, edited 3 times in total.

dspp
Lemon Half
Posts: 5884
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 5825 times
Been thanked: 2127 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#229688

Postby dspp » June 15th, 2019, 11:47 am

EssDeeAitch wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:
Very interesting to see some of the close up shots where you can see the paintwork...the orange peel looks awful and I doubt whether most decent car makers would put up with such a bad paint job.

John


One shot towards the end of the vid showed what could have been orange peel effect (caused by the presence of silicone) but I am not sure that it was.

I was intimately involved in paintshop management with three manufacturers and know how stringent they are in the prevention of contamination. I have trouble imagining their paintshop team would allow that for one minute. Even in the 90's, orange peel would caused an immediate shut down of operations.


SDH,

Please excuse my ignorance but given your knowledge can you explain a few things to me.

1. What is orange peel effect ? What causes it ? How does silicone get there ? How is it resolved ? Does it make any difference whether the coating system is going on an aluminium substrate (Tesla) or a steel substrate (most legacy ICE) ?

2. My reading is that the old NUMMI GM-Toyota plant in Fremont (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI) which is what Tesla are now using is paint-shop constrained, and that they really can't do anything about it. My understanding is that the old paint shop is grandfathered under a previous iteration of the California air emissions regulations, but that if they expand/alter the paint shop in any meaningful way then they have to comply with the new regs, and that this is unrealistic for Tesla to do, or at least is a $500-mln problem. Does this make any sense or am I misunderstanding things ?

3. I used to live in the USA, in the northeast. And for over thirty years I have been visiting the country (US/Can), all over. I am struck by how bad the paintwork is on the average US vehicle, especially stuff that is quite obviously home-market manufacture. I can't explain that by way of the environmental or road conditions being any worse than in any of the many other countries I have lived in or visit frequently. Therefore it has always seemed to me that this is something specific to US legacy auto mfg. But it is one of those things I've never been able to get a satisfactory explanation for. Can you comment ?

regards, dspp

EssDeeAitch
Lemon Slice
Posts: 655
Joined: August 31st, 2018, 9:08 pm
Has thanked: 268 times
Been thanked: 251 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#229789

Postby EssDeeAitch » June 15th, 2019, 8:56 pm

dspp wrote:
EssDeeAitch wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:
Very interesting to see some of the close up shots where you can see the paintwork...the orange peel looks awful and I doubt whether most decent car makers would put up with such a bad paint job.

John


One shot towards the end of the vid showed what could have been orange peel effect (caused by the presence of silicone) but I am not sure that it was.

I was intimately involved in paintshop management with three manufacturers and know how stringent they are in the prevention of contamination. I have trouble imagining their paintshop team would allow that for one minute. Even in the 90's, orange peel would caused an immediate shut down of operations.


SDH,

Please excuse my ignorance but given your knowledge can you explain a few things to me.

1. What is orange peel effect ? What causes it ? How does silicone get there ? How is it resolved ? Does it make any difference whether the coating system is going on an aluminium substrate (Tesla) or a steel substrate (most legacy ICE) ?

2. My reading is that the old NUMMI GM-Toyota plant in Fremont (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI) which is what Tesla are now using is paint-shop constrained, and that they really can't do anything about it. My understanding is that the old paint shop is grandfathered under a previous iteration of the California air emissions regulations, but that if they expand/alter the paint shop in any meaningful way then they have to comply with the new regs, and that this is unrealistic for Tesla to do, or at least is a $500-mln problem. Does this make any sense or am I misunderstanding things ?

3. I used to live in the USA, in the northeast. And for over thirty years I have been visiting the country (US/Can), all over. I am struck by how bad the paintwork is on the average US vehicle, especially stuff that is quite obviously home-market manufacture. I can't explain that by way of the environmental or road conditions being any worse than in any of the many other countries I have lived in or visit frequently. Therefore it has always seemed to me that this is something specific to US legacy auto mfg. But it is one of those things I've never been able to get a satisfactory explanation for. Can you comment ?

regards, dspp


The presence of silicone in any of its forms will have a chemical reaction to the paint (there may have been technical advances in paint since I retired) which results in the paint becoming dappled like the peel of an orange. I do not think the substrate makes any difference but am open to correction.

As vehicles come from the final paint coat, they go through a tunnel lit by many, many flourecent lights and inspected for imperfections in the paint finish which can include cellulose, polyester, metal, sealant etc as well as poor paint application.

I have been to a few US manufacturers and the process was ridgidly adhered to. It could be that Tesla standards are low but I really cant see that. Of course no quality process is 100% but paint finish is such a source of pride in a paintshop.

Appologies for typis whatever but am in hospital at the mo with a dodgy ticker!

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1535 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#229894

Postby odysseus2000 » June 16th, 2019, 12:28 pm

Imported autos threat to national security:

https://twitter.com/byHeatherLong/statu ... 9343779841

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#229900

Postby BobbyD » June 16th, 2019, 12:50 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Imported autos threat to national security:

https://twitter.com/byHeatherLong/statu ... 9343779841

Regards,


Old news...

BUSINESS NEWS MAY 17, 2019 / 1:34 PM / A MONTH AGO
Trump declares some auto imports pose national security threat


- https://www.reuters.com/article/us-auto ... SKCN1SN1FY

dspp
Lemon Half
Posts: 5884
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 5825 times
Been thanked: 2127 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#230088

Postby dspp » June 17th, 2019, 9:40 am

"Panasonic is currently in negotiations with Tesla to supply battery cells to Tesla's Shanghai production plant.

The Panasonic cells will be shipped either from the Panasonic lines at Tesla's Gigafactory 1 in Nevada or Panasonic's cell plant in Japan."


https://seekingalpha.com/article/427031 ... app=1&dr=1

interesting & odd, dspp

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1535 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#230132

Postby odysseus2000 » June 17th, 2019, 12:23 pm


odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1535 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#230142

Postby odysseus2000 » June 17th, 2019, 12:54 pm

Solar train, quite interesting albeit for only short journeys on flat land, but like the first aircraft were small unreliable things I expect this technology to greatly advance:

https://youtu.be/1SafVI7vKs4

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#230144

Postby BobbyD » June 17th, 2019, 12:55 pm

dspp wrote:"Panasonic is currently in negotiations with Tesla to supply battery cells to Tesla's Shanghai production plant.

The Panasonic cells will be shipped either from the Panasonic lines at Tesla's Gigafactory 1 in Nevada or Panasonic's cell plant in Japan."


https://seekingalpha.com/article/427031 ... app=1&dr=1

interesting & odd, dspp



Having read the next half line

The logistics of this are not ideal


I'm now going to hear this entire piece in the voice of Henning Wehn.

'Not ideal' said in a German Accent with lashings of understatement would seem to be a pretty decent summary.

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1535 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#230191

Postby odysseus2000 » June 17th, 2019, 4:27 pm

Is this the future of car service, video is quite interesting:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesl ... ide-along/

Regards,

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1535 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#230218

Postby odysseus2000 » June 17th, 2019, 6:26 pm

Interesting Musk Twitter banter:

https://www.businessinsider.sg/elon-mus ... rd-2019-6/

Regards,

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1535 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#230221

Postby odysseus2000 » June 17th, 2019, 6:29 pm

Tesla sentiment improves after report that more people being made aware of electric cars will lead to Tesla's tech superiority showing through.

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3471829-t ... email_link

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#230223

Postby BobbyD » June 17th, 2019, 6:41 pm

Tesla and NIO Fires in China Spur Electric-Car Safety Checkups


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ety-checks

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#230224

Postby BobbyD » June 17th, 2019, 6:42 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Tesla sentiment improves after report that more people being made aware of electric cars will lead to Tesla's tech superiority showing through.

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3471829-t ... email_link

Regards,



Tesla (TSLA) stock price jumped more than 4% today to keep the momentum of a rebound after a tough start of the year. The latest increase comes after Elon Musk claimed he is deleting his Twitter account.

The stock was down 46% year-to-date before a turnaround last week added almost $40 to the price per share.


- https://electrek.co/2019/06/17/tesla-ts ... g-twitter/

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2178
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 885 times
Been thanked: 1017 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#230250

Postby Howard » June 17th, 2019, 8:32 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:Here is a nice objective review of a year's ownership of a Tesla 3 from an ex BMW M3 owner. He likes the car and would buy another but he is not impressed with the service from Tesla.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFMtl2JgxIo

His is a performance version which was $69k but he did receive $17k of rebates on that price, making it quite reasonable.

Very interesting to see some of the close up shots where you can see the paintwork...the orange peel looks awful and I doubt whether most decent car makers would put up with such a bad paint job.

John


Judging from the sentiments of this guy & many others it seems to me that Tesla have made a drivers car that is so attractive that they will over look issues because they love how the car makes them feel. This is an extraordinary achievement for such a young company operating in a world of established giants, showing not only how good Tesla have had to be to do this, but also the lameness of the competition & the complacency that has come from being paid for making stuff far inferior to what can be done.

If I had a choice between exciting but not yet fully smoothed & polished and a reverse situation of boring yet smooth & polished I would choose the former although many want the latter. If it comes to a stage where Tesla offer smooth polished & sexy it would be a no brainier Apple like situation for a good proportion of the affluent folk who need a car.

It will be interesting to see if the posters here who want perfection in all aspects of their purchases will be swayed to Tesla as the business develops or if some other manufacturer will capture their emotion & love for perfection.

Imho it is this battle between emotion & prudence that will ultimately determine how big Tesla becomes. So far I remain firmly in the camp that Tesla will become a real big business.

Regards,


A follow up video shows a nightmare problem with their Tesla 3. The virtually new car was backed into a garage wall in April causing a dent in the bumper and boot. However the construction of the car meant that the repair is ridiculously complicated and still hasn't been completed. Cost estimate to date is $10,000 because of the problems with the bonded glass panels and slow supply of spare parts.

If this is anywhere near typical of repair costs for the Model 3, it is no wonder that insurance premiums are high. Who can believe a small bump can take a car off the road for 3 months and counting! I'm guessing this type of repair for an ICE car would take a couple of days in the UK and cost less than £2k.

These guys have been Tesla enthusiasts for years, but they are fast losing their good humour.

My question to engineers - is the design of the Model 3 and the non-availability of spare parts going to cause serious problems for the brand as more customers experience this type of problem?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlJ7lPdazyw

regards

Howard


Return to “Macro and Global Topics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests