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Musk endeavours

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vagrantbrain
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Re: Musk endeavours

#260889

Postby vagrantbrain » October 29th, 2019, 7:11 pm

I'm a bit of a fan and was looking forward to getting a model 3 as my current bmw goes back at christmas - that was till I got some insurance quotes... 40.y.o full NCB driving a 320d = £290, model 3 = £850 (and that was a special scheme from LV, the next was nearly £2) so any savings on fuel nicely offset by the insurance. Back to BMW for me :/

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Re: Musk endeavours

#260903

Postby dspp » October 29th, 2019, 8:56 pm

vagrantbrain wrote:I'm a bit of a fan and was looking forward to getting a model 3 as my current bmw goes back at christmas - that was till I got some insurance quotes... 40.y.o full NCB driving a 320d = £290, model 3 = £850 (and that was a special scheme from LV, the next was nearly £2) so any savings on fuel nicely offset by the insurance. Back to BMW for me :/


Yep, this is why Tesla launched their own insurance scheme to stop this sort of rip-off. Unfortunately it is not available in the UK yet.

regards, dspp

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Re: Musk endeavours

#260916

Postby BobbyD » October 29th, 2019, 10:14 pm

dspp wrote:
vagrantbrain wrote:I'm a bit of a fan and was looking forward to getting a model 3 as my current bmw goes back at christmas - that was till I got some insurance quotes... 40.y.o full NCB driving a 320d = £290, model 3 = £850 (and that was a special scheme from LV, the next was nearly £2) so any savings on fuel nicely offset by the insurance. Back to BMW for me :/


Yep, this is why Tesla launched their own insurance scheme to stop this sort of rip-off. Unfortunately it is not available in the UK yet.


...any theory as to why the insurance companies are conspiring against Tesla?

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Re: Musk endeavours

#260919

Postby AJC5001 » October 29th, 2019, 10:22 pm

BobbyD wrote:
...any theory as to why the insurance companies are conspiring against Tesla?


Does it only apply to Tesla, or are the other battery vehicles also subject to higher premiums?

What about other options such as Hybrids?

Adrian

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Re: Musk endeavours

#260936

Postby Howard » October 30th, 2019, 12:00 am

dspp wrote:
vagrantbrain wrote:I'm a bit of a fan and was looking forward to getting a model 3 as my current bmw goes back at christmas - that was till I got some insurance quotes... 40.y.o full NCB driving a 320d = £290, model 3 = £850 (and that was a special scheme from LV, the next was nearly £2) so any savings on fuel nicely offset by the insurance. Back to BMW for me :/


Yep, this is why Tesla launched their own insurance scheme to stop this sort of rip-off. Unfortunately it is not available in the UK yet.

regards, dspp


Tesla have gone very quiet about their insurance scheme in the USA. Perhaps because a lot of their quotes are higher than the competition and the take-up is not significant. They are acting as a broker and, although they are said to be subsidising the prices, they are struggling to compete with companies who know how to price motor risks.

Dspp, for someone who tries to carefully analyse the Tesla situation I’m surprised that you are making an allegation that that LV are indulging in a rip-off. Any sensible insurance company are going to look at factors like “ludicrous acceleration” and apply a significant uplift to premiums. Why would they not consider the risk they are taking in insuring drivers who are encouraged to trust flawed autonomous driving and take their hands off the wheel?

And Tesla’s bad reputation for service and reliability in the UK will mean extra costs while customers wait for cars to be repaired.

It’s too easy for a Tesla shareholder who doesn’t understand insurance risks to criticise underwriters!

The motor insurance industry in the UK (and the USA) is very competitive and their data on drivers and cars is probably significantly better than Tesla’s data despite their fans’ claims. If Tesla cars are really safer than their competitors’ they will attract low premiums. If they don’t, it’s because they and their drivers are higher risk.

regards

Howard

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Re: Musk endeavours

#260977

Postby PeterGray » October 30th, 2019, 8:47 am

dspp wrote:
vagrantbrain wrote:I'm a bit of a fan and was looking forward to getting a model 3 as my current bmw goes back at christmas - that was till I got some insurance quotes... 40.y.o full NCB driving a 320d = £290, model 3 = £850 (and that was a special scheme from LV, the next was nearly £2) so any savings on fuel nicely offset by the insurance. Back to BMW for me :/


Yep, this is why Tesla launched their own insurance scheme to stop this sort of rip-off. Unfortunately it is not available in the UK yet.

regards, dspp


There have been many reports of relatively minor damage to Teslas causing very expensive repairs. I got the impression a while back that one of the issues Tesla has is that their very integrated design, which may be great when it works, lacks the sort of real world element - that makes normal wear and tear and maintenance reasonably cost effective. So it would be no surprise if Tesla premiums tended to be higher, possibly significantly.

Add to that the presumed lack of data that the insurance companies have of Tesla risks and costs at present, and their natural caution, and in this case we are comparing an HC car with an electric one. So I'm not really that surprised by the difference. I'd certainly hesitate to call it a rip off, and I'll be convinced it's not another of Musk's off the cuff bits of PR when they can actually show they are insuring cars (unsubsidised) for less than the big boys. Seems unlikely to me at present.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#260995

Postby dspp » October 30th, 2019, 9:27 am

1. Tesla in their last Q report said they were rolling out their insurance offering to more US states. That is hardly decline. Hopefully it will reach more countries soon, however I fully appreciate that regulatory barriers act as a pretty good market entry restraint, so I am not holding my breath.

2. Tesla are doing this because their view is that the data does not justify the premiums that the legacy insurers are charging. One can see hints here that if the legacy insurers do not get with the programe, they will become incidental collateral damage via a en passant restructuring of the auto insurance industry. Tesla's control of, and ability to crunch, awesome amounts of data coming from the vehicles gives them a pretty interesting position to do this. So, just as the legacy auto-industry knows it is competing with Tesla at a business-model level as well as at a product level, so too does the legacy auto insurer industry. That makes for a lot of smear tactics at all levels of the legacy industry and their hangers-on in the S&M and media community. (have you ever seen a Tesla advert in the media ? ouch that is another revenue stream gone for these people).

3. If they do get with the program, and if the data justifies it, then premiums will fall. Or Tesla will charge low but justified premiums. Either way Tesla shareholders win through either faster Tesla adoption and/or creamy Tesla premiums flowing to the P&L.

4. My personal opinion is that auto insurance in the UK is pretty darn close to a cartel, albeit tempered by a degree of competition on price on a day-to-day basis in the mass market. If however you are in a minority niche market then insurers will cream you. That appears to be happening with Tesla and is, in my opinion, a rip-off. Unless the insurers put their data set on the table then I am not buying their spin on this. The only caveat I would place on this is that clearly the teslas are high performance vehicles, so maybe the insurers will ask owners to dial in a "gutless aceleration" mode in return for lower premiums. I don't know but I do expect it to come out in the wash one way or another as time passes.

5. Those of you who are running around repeating allegations and fearmongering about reports of high repair costs and high accident rates have yet to put any aggregate data forward to support your hypothesis. I am the only one on this board to have dug out actual data, which happened to be in respect of the rate of battery fire risk allegations, and the available data flat-contradicted the FUD you are all repeatedly smearing Tesla with as far as I could see - and even I went out of my way to point out the possible flaws in the data sets that would have acted against the Tesla view on this !

6. Again the available evidence that we have seen, and which I have verified with Tesla owners I know, is that the actual running costs of a Tesla over the years are lower than the comparable legacy dino-juice ICE cars.

7. Until you have hard, verifiable, real-world, statistically significant, comparable data then I am afraid you just get put in the box labelled "another lazy anecdotal smear campaign" as far as I am concerned.

8. I am long TSLA at the price I bought. If you think I am wrong, then go and put your $$$ where your keyboard is and short TSLA.

regards, dspp

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Re: Musk endeavours

#261066

Postby BobbyD » October 30th, 2019, 1:16 pm

dspp wrote:5. Those of you who are running around repeating allegations and fearmongering about reports of high repair costs and high accident rates have yet to put any aggregate data forward to support your hypothesis. I am the only one on this board to have dug out actual data, which happened to be in respect of the rate of battery fire risk allegations, and the available data flat-contradicted the FUD you are all repeatedly smearing Tesla with as far as I could see - and even I went out of my way to point out the possible flaws in the data sets that would have acted against the Tesla view on this !


There's something in the Tesla Kool-Aid which turns even the rational and well balanced in to paranoid cult members convinced the world is out to get them.

Your defence of Tesla was in response to a general point about BEV's and the need for emergency responder training. It was not fearmongering, it was not a smear and was neither an allegation nor 'FUD' and it in no way singled Tesla out... It wasn't in anyway anti Tesla or anti-BEV.

...and the data comparing Apples to Aardvarks wasn't actually in any way useful.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#261072

Postby odysseus2000 » October 30th, 2019, 1:43 pm

Tesla model 3, owners survey: Part 1 Quality, defects etc:

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019 ... -3-survey/

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Re: Musk endeavours

#261123

Postby Howard » October 30th, 2019, 5:47 pm

dspp wrote:1. Tesla in their last Q report said they were rolling out their insurance offering to more US states. That is hardly decline. Hopefully it will reach more countries soon, however I fully appreciate that regulatory barriers act as a pretty good market entry restraint, so I am not holding my breath.

2. Tesla are doing this because their view is that the data does not justify the premiums that the legacy insurers are charging. One can see hints here that if the legacy insurers do not get with the programe, they will become incidental collateral damage via a en passant restructuring of the auto insurance industry. Tesla's control of, and ability to crunch, awesome amounts of data coming from the vehicles gives them a pretty interesting position to do this. So, just as the legacy auto-industry knows it is competing with Tesla at a business-model level as well as at a product level, so too does the legacy auto insurer industry. That makes for a lot of smear tactics at all levels of the legacy industry and their hangers-on in the S&M and media community. (have you ever seen a Tesla advert in the media ? ouch that is another revenue stream gone for these people).

3. If they do get with the program, and if the data justifies it, then premiums will fall. Or Tesla will charge low but justified premiums. Either way Tesla shareholders win through either faster Tesla adoption and/or creamy Tesla premiums flowing to the P&L.

4. My personal opinion is that auto insurance in the UK is pretty darn close to a cartel, albeit tempered by a degree of competition on price on a day-to-day basis in the mass market. If however you are in a minority niche market then insurers will cream you. That appears to be happening with Tesla and is, in my opinion, a rip-off. Unless the insurers put their data set on the table then I am not buying their spin on this. The only caveat I would place on this is that clearly the teslas are high performance vehicles, so maybe the insurers will ask owners to dial in a "gutless aceleration" mode in return for lower premiums. I don't know but I do expect it to come out in the wash one way or another as time passes.

5. Those of you who are running around repeating allegations and fearmongering about reports of high repair costs and high accident rates have yet to put any aggregate data forward to support your hypothesis. I am the only one on this board to have dug out actual data, which happened to be in respect of the rate of battery fire risk allegations, and the available data flat-contradicted the FUD you are all repeatedly smearing Tesla with as far as I could see - and even I went out of my way to point out the possible flaws in the data sets that would have acted against the Tesla view on this !

6. Again the available evidence that we have seen, and which I have verified with Tesla owners I know, is that the actual running costs of a Tesla over the years are lower than the comparable legacy dino-juice ICE cars.

7. Until you have hard, verifiable, real-world, statistically significant, comparable data then I am afraid you just get put in the box labelled "another lazy anecdotal smear campaign" as far as I am concerned.

8. I am long TSLA at the price I bought. If you think I am wrong, then go and put your $$$ where your keyboard is and short TSLA.

regards, dspp


There is a danger that Tesla investors believe the whole world is against them.

They see the insurance industry, government regulators, dissatisfied Tesla customers, slandered cave-divers, Walmart management and consumer organisations as an unholy alliance of Tesla detractors.

And it is easy for supporters to miss or ignore the information which has been posted on this forum.

I don’t have time to look up the “Which” reports again. But they are the best, statistically sound, surveys of Tesla customers in the UK and the Tesla brand is rated as one of the worst for car reliability in the UK. These surveys have been referred to several times on this forum.

There was another UK survey by a car magazine quoted on this forum which agreed with the “Which” report and rated Tesla badly.

The major US auto body “Consumer Reports” recently dropped its recommendation of the Tesla Model 3 because “owners reported problems with paint, trim and electronics”. This US body’s survey covers 470,000 vehicles, so not too shabby a sample base.

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-rel ... ty-issues/

There has also been a well documented problem of Tesla delivering sub-standard cars to a German car-hire firm, which was well covered in this forum.

If you look at “Tesla driver” driving on Youtube you will see how flawed autonomous mode is for UK roads. Frankly this mode is a joke at the moment.

Tesladeaths.com shows details of 90 deaths caused by Tesla drivers over recent years. The Tesla brand is associated with some horrible accidents and has a much worse relative safety record than Mercedes, BMW or any other premium brand according to the site’s author.

I don’t have time to refute the other allegations about ICE cars or “Legacy Insurers” who are they??
To seriously suggest “Tesla in their last Q report said they were rolling out their insurance offering to more US states. That is hardly decline.” is a pretty weak argument, given the track record of over-claiming from the company. When they can argue that they are profitably insuring more than 250,000 cars, then maybe we realists will accept that they have a minor success in motor insurance.

Also the claim that “Tesla's control of, and ability to crunch, awesome amounts of data coming from the vehicles gives them a pretty interesting position to do this” is an amusingly naive comment which shows little understanding of the absolutely massive amounts of data which insurers hold about drivers behaviour and vehicles in the USA, UK and elsewhere.

It’s fairly easy to do some fancy-looking analysis of the future of Tesla but we all know that forecasting the future can be misguided. We have to go on the facts as they exist today.

As sceptical investors we don’t have to short Tesla. But to counter many “analysts” on the internet (not on this forum) who are blatantly ramping the shares, we can just point out that over the last five years Tesla have been a high-risk investment with poor returns. And we may choose not to buy one of their cars (like a lot of their most ardent supporters!)

We may believe that BEVs are a good thing (some of us have actually owned/leased one!). But as investors we find some of the claims about the imminent death of major ICE brands just too far-fetched and extreme. Especially as they have now been made for years and are proving to be based on fanciful views of the future. Maybe one day some brands may suffer, but at the moment it appears that the heavily subsidised Tesla is the one struggling to make a profit.

Tesla are led by an individual who has been caught out many times for making claims which are proven to be ridiculous within a short time. For example the claim in the results update published in April, “if our Gigafactory Shanghai is able to reach volume production early in Q4 this year, we may be able to produce as many as 500,000 vehicles globally in 2019”.


Time will tell if Tesla are going to succeed but in the short term they appear to be struggling to make a profit and to grow. Some of the statements in their recent quarterly report appear to be losing their shine already when carefully scrutinised.

regards

Howard

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Re: Musk endeavours

#261137

Postby BobbyD » October 30th, 2019, 7:02 pm

Traffic management should be a major beneficiary of the increasing digitisation of transport.

Volkswagen optimizes traffic flow with quantum computers

Volkswagen Group launches world’s first pilot project for traffic optimization with a D-Wave quantum computer in Lisbon

To be used on a MAN bus fleet in Lisbon during the WebSummit technology conference (November 4 to 8)

Volkswagen is launching in Lisbon the world’s first pilot project for traffic optimization using a quantum computer. For this purpose, the Group is equipping MAN buses of the city of Lisbon with a traffic management system developed in-house. This system uses a D-Wave quantum computer and calculates the fastest route for each of the nine participating buses individually and almost in real-time. This way, passengers’ travel times will be significantly reduced, even during peak traffic periods, and traffic flow will be improved. Volkswagen is testing its traffic optimization system during the WebSummit technology conference in Lisbon from November 4 to 8 – during the conference, buses will carry thousands of passengers through the city traffic in Lisbon.Martin Hofmann, Volkswagen Group CIO, says: “At Volkswagen, we want to further expand our expert knowledge in the field of quantum computing and to develop an in-depth understanding of the way this technology can be put to meaningful use within the company. Traffic optimization is one of the potential applications. Smart traffic management based on the performance capabilities of a quantum computer can provide effective support for cities and commuters.”


- https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/20 ... uters.html

Howard wrote:Time will tell if Tesla are going to succeed but in the short term they appear to be struggling to make a profit and to grow.


You mean like this?

October 30, 2019 - Group sales revenue up by 6.9 percent to EUR 186.6 billion - Operating profit before special items increases by EUR 1.5 billion to EUR 14.8 billion


- https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/InvestorRelations.html

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Re: Musk endeavours

#261144

Postby odysseus2000 » October 30th, 2019, 7:26 pm

Thank you Howard for that nice bear argument, the more of this stuff I see the more I am happy to be long Tesla. These kind of arguments tell me that, if I am right in my analysis, there are many bears who have yet to throw in their cards and hence plenty of share price appreciation potential. I will worry more if you decide you can't live without owning a Tesla.

Considering a few or your points:

According the Bloomberg article linked a little earlier in this thread https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019 ... -3-survey/ model 3 buyers are seeing better quality as one expects with the company developing its production process.

One can read these kinds of reports over and over and you can favour one if you wish, but it is far from clear that Tesla are the worst or best car according to the methodologies used.

Tesla are moving quickly to an annual production run of a million cars, matching the circa million already made and accelerating. All of this has happened in 9 years. If this isn't growth what is?

The effect on legacy auto has been severe with BMW issuing profits warnings and other luxury legacy also losing market share. This is very significant and only just begun.

The insurance industry like the medical industry collets statistics based on the whole body of drivers, Tesla collect statistics on each driver and can tailor insurance quotes to how the individual drivers. A very similar thing is slowly happing in health as more and more individual data is recorded, medicines, treatments etc are all targeted at the individual, not some statistical average. This is a huge advance which many do not understand as of yet but it will lead to dramatically different premiums and greatly improved medical treatment.

Over the last 5 years Tesla equity has gone from $244 to $314 and has given anyone who trades either long or short many profitable opportunities.

Most the analysis I read is share price dependent. When the price goes up there are lots of bulls, when it goes down there are lots of bears. So a very simple trading tactic is to buy crowds of bears and sell crowds of bulls.

Whether robotic driving ever happens is unknowable, but if it is to be developed the large body of data that Tesla have is likely a gold mine for tech who are trying to make it work. The expected launch of over 30,000 satellites may well have a significant effect on the performance of robotic driving systems.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#261154

Postby BobbyD » October 30th, 2019, 7:53 pm

Life really is too short, so my edited highlights

odysseus2000 wrote:Considering a few or your points:

According the Bloomberg article linked a little earlier in this thread https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019 ... -3-survey/ model 3 buyers are seeing better quality as one expects with the company developing its production process.


Yes, they are down from 101 faults per car delivered to 35 faults per car delivered in the first 30 days of ownership. Personally I wouldn't be boasting about that...

odysseus2000 wrote:Tesla are moving quickly to an annual production run of a million cars, matching the circa million already made and accelerating. All of this has happened in 9 years. If this isn't growth what is?


Sorry Ode's you've got at the very least half a million units of vapourware a year in that claim. You know the rules if it doesn't exist it doesn't count...

odysseus2000 wrote:The effect on legacy auto has been severe with BMW issuing profits warnings and other luxury legacy also losing market share. This is very significant and only just begun.


Tesla's biggest effect is way in the rear mirror. They will never be as significant as a manufacturer as they were in establishing the viability of BEV's. Some car companies will struggle to make the switch and some will fail, but others will prosper.

BMW is not the whole market, yet you keep using it as if it were, I wonder why.

No car company ever issued a profit warning prior to Tesla, so obviously all car company profit warnings are due to Tesla, and any company issuing one is automatically representative of the rest of the market, Tesla excluded, obviously.

Are Tesla also responsible for legacy auto companies making increased profits? If they are then many thanks.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#261170

Postby dspp » October 30th, 2019, 10:58 pm

Howard wrote:
There is a danger that Tesla investors believe the whole world is against them.

Howard


Howard,

I'm not going to waste my breath going through all that FUD. If you want to drive a dino-juice car then that's your choice. If you want to slag off TSLA then keep on going.

However this is an investment site. If you want to benefit from your superior knowledge on TSLA as an investment opportunity then either go short or go long. But get off the keyboard and put some $$$ in this game if you are sure you know what you are talking about. If you don't do so then it indicates to me that you are not so sure as you profess to be.

Meanwhile TSLA is growing at an average of 33% per year.

regards, dspp

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Re: Musk endeavours

#261173

Postby Howard » October 31st, 2019, 12:15 am

dspp wrote:
Howard wrote:
There is a danger that Tesla investors believe the whole world is against them.

Howard


Howard,

I'm not going to waste my breath going through all that FUD. If you want to drive a dino-juice car then that's your choice. If you want to slag off TSLA then keep on going.

However this is an investment site. If you want to benefit from your superior knowledge on TSLA as an investment opportunity then either go short or go long. But get off the keyboard and put some $$$ in this game if you are sure you know what you are talking about. If you don't do so then it indicates to me that you are not so sure as you profess to be.

Meanwhile TSLA is growing at an average of 33% per year.

regards, dspp


dspp

You would have a more believable investment case if you actually bought a Tesla :D

Unlike you, I'm not claiming to be sure about Tesla's future. It's foolish, in my opinion for amateur investors to forecast how fast or slowly Tesla will grow in the future. And not sensible to claim that they will outperform "legacy insurers" whoever they are. My comments are about their current and past performance which has lagged their own forecasts.

As far as investing goes, I'm lucky enough to have a portfolio which has outperformed Tesla over the last five years with much less risk.

I'm not criticising your investing your own money, so long as you don't try and influence others to invest in a high-risk operation. Either long or short.

regards

Howard

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Re: Musk endeavours

#261178

Postby BobbyD » October 31st, 2019, 3:07 am

dspp wrote:
Howard wrote:
There is a danger that Tesla investors believe the whole world is against them.

Howard


Howard,

I'm not going to waste my breath going through all that FUD.


Are you accusing posters here of posting FUD, or are we once again being forced to sit through the refutation of arguments nobody here has actually made?

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Re: Musk endeavours

#261215

Postby odysseus2000 » October 31st, 2019, 9:08 am

Howard
You would have a more believable investment case if you actually bought a Tesla :D


Quite fascinated by why you think this.

How does owning a product influence an investment case?

In my case if I go out & buy a Tesla it will have no material impact on my investments and worse will make all the neighbours more aware of my financial situation, likely causing all of them to want me to contribute to various endeavours that I am happy to let them fund.

Meanwhile if I watch what other folk are doing & where many others are spending their money this will have a direct investment case impact. This is how I often invest. To give you an example. I like Apple as an investment/trade because I see lots of people using Apple products. I also watch Louis Rossman who goes over the technical reasons why he does not like Apple products or Apple service. Rossman makes some super good logical analysis & points out serious Apple flaws & bad workmanship. But people still buy Apple stuff, and I regularly own Apple shares & have a few Apple products, the newest now is over 4 years old, my iPhone is a 4s. Would buying more Apple products make a difference to my investment performance?

My job as an investor/trader as I see it is to make profits, not to own products made by companies. What am I missing, why would me buying any product made by any company make me a better investor/trader?

It may surprise you to know that I mostly trade on price anyway, looking for sell offs as an opportunity to buy, run ups as an opportunity to sell.

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#261231

Postby dspp » October 31st, 2019, 10:39 am

odysseus2000 wrote:
Howard
You would have a more believable investment case if you actually bought a Tesla :D


Quite fascinated by why you think this.

How does owning a product influence an investment case?

Regards,


Thank you o2000. As you quite rightly say my being an investor in TSLA has nothing whatsoever to do with what car I choose to own & drive, or even whether I choose to own & drive a car. regards, dspp

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Re: Musk endeavours

#261249

Postby BobbyD » October 31st, 2019, 11:21 am

dspp wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:
Howard
You would have a more believable investment case if you actually bought a Tesla :D


Quite fascinated by why you think this.

How does owning a product influence an investment case?

Regards,


Thank you o2000. As you quite rightly say my being an investor in TSLA has nothing whatsoever to do with what car I choose to own & drive, or even whether I choose to own & drive a car. regards, dspp


...and yet you yourself once asserted that my theory that there is a decent market for more compact, lower range vehicles you disparagingly dismissed as shopping trolleys meant I should be compelled to buy one if they ever came to market!

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Re: Musk endeavours

#261296

Postby dspp » October 31st, 2019, 1:51 pm

BobbyD wrote:
dspp wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:
Quite fascinated by why you think this.

How does owning a product influence an investment case?

Regards,


Thank you o2000. As you quite rightly say my being an investor in TSLA has nothing whatsoever to do with what car I choose to own & drive, or even whether I choose to own & drive a car. regards, dspp


...and yet you yourself once asserted that my theory that there is a decent market for more compact, lower range vehicles you disparagingly dismissed as shopping trolleys meant I should be compelled to buy one if they ever came to market!


BD,
Then please have my apologies for personalising. Are you sure you are not quoting me out of context, not that it matter ? By shopping trolleys I would mean the very compact stuff, such as a Fiat 500 or VW Upi which I think can work OK as a vehicle type with 80-120 mile ranges. I suspect that there will be a bifurcation in the market and that will be a valid EV class.
Regards,
dspp


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