Musk endeavours

[dspp]

As a slight aside, those of you waxing lyrical over the fantastic support etc offered by legacy auto, might care to have a gander at some comments below this:

https://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/ ... t_expires/

- dspp

[Howard]

I can see you've never been up close & personal with the costs associated with NRE for conventional instrumentation, or the BoM costs, or the production assembly costs. And these offer no ability to deliver OTA updates. And these lock a manufacturer/designer into a short model life between (costly) design refreshes. And which lock the designer/manufacturer into a pre-existing industry supply chain & cost-base which they are intent on disrupting.

There is a reason that Tesla are doing it their way. In all respects, including the other ones you airily wave your hands at. It may be that Tesla are wrong, but they sure as heck are giving it a cracking good go, much to the envy of all the other automotive OEMs out there.

- dspp

I think you are missing the point. Just the use of all your TLAs indicates you are approaching Tesla as an engineer who isn't in touch with a large and affluent consumer market. Your point would be made better if you explained yourself in plain English (or American ).

Achieving a better and more practical look to the interior of a Model 3 can't be that hard, other manufactures excel at these things and they make a huge difference to customers.

And making Tesla more environmentally friendly wouldn't be too difficult surely?

regards

Howard

Nope. I am explaining this from the perspective of an engineering economist or technology strategist, both of which are far more relevant to the matter at hand than waffling about wine in California. And I am using nothing other than very standard TLAs.

Experiencing a Tesla for the first time is like your first encounter with Ikea furniture if you were in the 70s, or your first encounter with an Apple computer in the 90s, or with an Apple/Android smartphone in the 00s. Pretty soon you start to wonder why the old stuff didn't get ditched faster.

regards, dspp

Be fair, dspp, unless I'm mistaken you are happy to drive an old economy car or a basic rental car. Have you owned or regularly driven a new 40-70k car?

The display on a modern luxury car is much more flexible than a Tesla. And a delight to use compared with basic touchscreens.

For example today, I was able to enter my destination over a coffee in my study, this was ready for me when I got in the car (no phone required). However, I could have entered it by writing on the rotary control, using the rotating selector, talking to the SatNav, using the car's connection to the internet or the touchscreen.

When driving, a touchscreen is not ideal as it is difficult to use it without taking one's eyes off the road and if the road isn't smooth it's easy to touch the wrong digit. That's when a rotary control is far superior.

My screen gives me every bit of information I require, for example the weather on route, communications and media details, a map of the route easily enlarged with a rotary control (or the touchscreen when it is safe to do so). Details of the next junction ahead are enlarged on a separate display straight in front of me. And any other information I regularly require like range is easily seen without looking down. And, of course, the car's systems are always in touch with the internet so, without using my phone, I can find a local restaurant, hotel, castle, public loo etc without much hassle.

I guess from your dismissive comment that you don't have much time for people who enjoy a nice glass of wine or a quality car . Tesla have to sell to people like that.

Engineering economists and technology strategists need to understand Marketing and Customer Service issues as well as technology to prosper. When I was a director of a medium-sized manufacturing company I worked alongside a few but they weren''t the type of customer Tesla needs to cultivate.

We'll see. I wouldn't be surprised to find that Tesla add some extra controls to the Model 3 or the Model Y in due course. Then we'll know who is right about what they need to do to get on the next stage of becoming a serious (and high-tech) car manufacturer. Using your analogy let's hope they are not a Nokia.

regards

Howard

[odysseus2000]

Fully charged covering the spend of oil majors on electric, Financial analysis of the sector, recent power cut, short review of new model 3 on lease:

https://youtu.be/JpoaJ259FHE

Regards,

[Howard]

Hi Howard,

Point 1 Tesla problems here are just growing pains, they are all solvable and will be fixed and anyhow folk are doing far less complaining of paint work suggesting that fix is well underway.

Point 2 Regarding the model 3 display:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3 ... c-approval

Sezai likened the experience of using the Model 3’s display to his first impressions of the Apple iPad. According to the critic, when he first used an iPad, there was something immediately familiar and exciting about the system and how it freed users from the “mess of Windows.” This experience, Sezai noted, is echoed in the Model 3, as the vehicle gives drivers the impression that they are “in touch with a next-generation car.”

The Tesla display has become an iconic and loved aspect of Tesla, sure lots of folk say they initially don’t like it and then within a short time they get so used to it that it becomes a pleasure to use.

I have several times taken conventional displays to bits due to various failures and such. They are massively complicated things, full of tiny components and must cost a fortune. The Tesla display is so much simpler and easier to work on and repair and gives much more information.

Regards,

Ody

Have you taken apart a top of the range 2019 Mercedes or BMW screen?

Are you aware that car screens are progressing as fast as phones or tablets?

Model 3 Teslas are competing with the latest technology. And I've read that the Model S screens and software are now looking rather dated.

regards

Howard

[odysseus2000]

Ody

Have you taken apart a top of the range 2019 Mercedes or BMW screen?

Are you aware that car screens are progressing as fast as phones or tablets?

Model 3 Teslas are competing with the latest technology. And I've read that the Model S screens and software are now looking rather dated.

regards

Howard

Effectively yes, as I am familiar with most display technologies and practically work with them. I deal with how they are build, how they are driven, power consumption, output lumens. I have written code to drive them over various bus architectures, the whole 9 yards.

I am also familiar with how these types of display technology are integrated in vehicle systems.

The more important question is do folk think that the latest Merc, BMW, Audi displays are anyway iconic, or just substitution of the old ways of doing things into newer technology?

Stuffing everything where it has always been, adding connectivity etc does not make for a new driving experience, whereas the Tesla display does. It has proved popular in the ways that the iPad has, as noted by the Japanese motoring correspondent.

Everything in the end comes down to personal preference. There are those who like to stay traditional and those that like newer ideas. In my experience newer ideas often fail, but as I noted earlier when they catch on they stay around for long periods and others end up copying them.

Regards,

[Howard]

Ody

Have you taken apart a top of the range 2019 Mercedes or BMW screen?

Are you aware that car screens are progressing as fast as phones or tablets?

Model 3 Teslas are competing with the latest technology. And I've read that the Model S screens and software are now looking rather dated.

regards

Howard

Effectively yes, as I am familiar with most display technologies and practically work with them. I deal with how they are build, how they are driven, power consumption, output lumens. I have written code to drive them over various bus architectures, the whole 9 yards.

I am also familiar with how these types of display technology are integrated in vehicle systems.

The more important question is do folk think that the latest Merc, BMW, Audi displays are anyway iconic, or just substitution of the old ways of doing things into newer technology?

Stuffing everything where it has always been, adding connectivity etc does not make for a new driving experience, whereas the Tesla display does. It has proved popular in the ways that the iPad has, as noted by the Japanese motoring correspondent.

Everything in the end comes down to personal preference. There are those who like to stay traditional and those that like newer ideas. In my experience newer ideas often fail, but as I noted earlier when they catch on they stay around for long periods and others end up copying them.

Regards,

I don't pretend to be an expert, but it is very easy to find posts from frustrated Tesla owners about screen faults. I’ve shown a few recent posts below:

Those that occur when driving are the most concerning. Typical comments are:

How are the flickering headlights doing with this new update?

We need a thread keeping track of resolved issues - instead of constant threads about problems.

and:

I'm on about 5th month of ownership and currently 2019.8.3. The past 2-3 weeks I have had screen issues just like OP about a half dozen times, none previous to that. Twice it reset by itself after a few seconds and other times I had to do it manually. Screen was back to normal after each reset. I never panicked and have not submitted ticket to Tesla. Hoping next update will resolve this.

One of our M3’s is also on 2019.8.5 and has been doing the exact same thing. It rebooted twice during our drive home one night while doing that. I wouldn’t bother going to the service center just yet. I’m pretty sure it’s an 8.5 bug.

Our other M3 is still on 2019.5.15. I’ve been a bit frustrated that it hasn’t been receiving updates, but after seeing the problems with 8.5 I think I’m glad I’m still on 5.15 until they sort this stuff out.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... -4.148003/

And look at this post which was dated on Wednesday:

Speedometer reading super high speeds after 12v replacement.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... nt.163504/


Posted in June: I just scheduled for touch screen replacement due to yellow edge issue but they cancelled my appointment. They said that a part is not available yet. Please keep us posted if you get any good news from them. Thanks
They are supposed to get new screens in September from a new vendor that is supposed to solve this common issue.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 903/page-2


And articles like this (written in May 2019) suggest the screens for S and X Models were liable to faults.

Heading is: Elon Musk bragged that the Model S's 17 inch screen isn't automotive grade, but now Tesla and its customers are mired in "replacement hell."

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/tes ... de-matters

Out of interest I looked for similar posts on recent screen problems for Mercedes and BMW and couldn’t find any for 2018 and 2019 models. (I'm sure there must be at least one Merc with a problem screen but I couldn't find it ) .

Given that Mercedes and BMW must have sold something like a hundred times more cars than Tesla in the last 18 months, I'd say that Tesla screens are far more unreliable.

regards

Howard

[odysseus2000]

Out of interest I looked for similar posts on recent screen problems for Mercedes and BMW and couldn’t find any for 2018 and 2019 models. (I'm sure there must be at least one Merc with a problem screen but I couldn't find it ) .

Given that Mercedes and BMW must have sold something like a hundred times more cars than Tesla in the last 18 months, I'd say that Tesla screens are far more unreliable.

regards

Howard

Not sure any of this follows. Many Tesla owners feel they are part of something new and are great enthusiasts for their cars and like to be part of the peer group of folk talking Tesla.

Most legacy car owners have not been evangelised by their cars and don't bother to post much.

There are some posts on the Mercedes owners club forum, but not that many.

Folk who buy or lease for a 3 year term have warranties to get them by and beyond that Mercedes become money pits and although there are still fools (like me) who believe the hype about the quality folk soon get sick of paying ridiculous repair bills and dump the cars.

Sure some will cite factory figures on legacy depreciation, but the prices just don't hold up and the garages I know don't like them or want to sell them.

Regards,

[BobbyD]

Stuffing everything where it has always been, adding connectivity etc does not make for a new driving experience, whereas the Tesla display does.

Producing a car with square wheels would make for a new driving experience. Some things are the way they are for a reason. Presenting information to the driver in a way which minimises the amount of time they need to divert their attention from the road is one of them. Why not take your argument a bit further? Why is the touchpad in the front of the car at all? In fact why is it even in the cabin. Putting the car information read outs, navigation display, AC controls etc in the boot would be a far 'newer' and more radical driving experience. Hell, it might fail, but if it doesn't it may stick around for a long time.

[odysseus2000]

BobbyD
Producing a car with square wheels would make for a new driving experience. Some things are the way they are for a reason. Presenting information to the driver in a way which minimises the amount of time they need to divert their attention from the road is one of them. Why not take your argument a bit further? Why is the touchpad in the front of the car at all? In fact why is it even in the cabin. Putting the car information read outs, navigation display, AC controls etc in the boot would be a far 'newer' and more radical driving experience. Hell, it might fail, but if it doesn't it may stick around for a long time.

Well, yes but no one has tried these things, whereas the Tesla big screen has been tried and lots of folk from California to Japan like it.

Maybe you would like it if you tried it.

Regards,

[odysseus2000]

This is a video about a 3rd party Tesla repair company. Lots of technical stuff that may interest some:

https://youtu.be/V_kkcIyTUmc

Regards,

[dspp]

Be fair, dspp, unless I'm mistaken you are happy to drive an old economy car or a basic rental car. Have you owned or regularly driven a new 40-70k car?
regards

Howard

At the moment I choose to run a old VW, though as it happens I have recently changed my motor and I note it has a price of £35k for the new version. When I rent (as I do frequently) I select the car to do the job, ordinarily smallest/cheapest, sometimes high-end luxury. In the past I have run a small fleet in my day job, including rather expensive high-end (that particular car would be £70k if I bought it new today, and I did buy it new then, and it was ordinarily my motor at the time) : again I choose/chose the tool for the various jobs we had at the time. I am constantly in and out of friends and colleagues and clients cars, which span the full spectrum, and are in a wide variety of countries/continents. And I have friends who design/make/sell/maintain/etc this stuff for a living in a variety of countries/continents and companies. (In fact one of them was one of the engineers/designers on that £70k car I, as I subsequently learnt). The point is I have a reasonably rounded view of what is out there now in the automotive sector, and why that is so, and the influences that are changing that globally at both an industrial and consumer level.

As well as automotive I also have quite a good insight into what is going on in the energy sector, and in software/electronics. I think all three are relevant to this transition, and to Tesla in particular.

You don't need to agree with me, in fact I am not trying to change your view, merely critique it. At the moment reading your point of view is like having a shortcut insight into what traps a particular group of OEMs into what is now an evolutionary deadend. They know they need to get away from it, but they know they need to keep customers like you. And that is a very real predicament for them. And so reading you is a valuable insight for me.

regards, dspp

[Howard]

2. They should produce a Model 3 with normal driver controls and screen and save the costs of the unnecessarily large and distracting display screen autonomous mode etc. Ideally this would also be designed as a more environmentally friendly model with less acceleration giving longer range, less tyre and brake wear. This would satisfy a wider market segment and possible more than offset the costs of better PDI.


Howard

I can see you've never been up close & personal with the costs associated with NRE for conventional instrumentation, or the BoM costs, or the production assembly costs. And these offer no ability to deliver OTA updates. And these lock a manufacturer/designer into a short model life between (costly) design refreshes. And which lock the designer/manufacturer into a pre-existing industry supply chain & cost-base which they are intent on disrupting.

There is a reason that Tesla are doing it their way. In all respects, including the other ones you airily wave your hands at. It may be that Tesla are wrong, but they sure as heck are giving it a cracking good go, much to the envy of all the other automotive OEMs out there.

- dspp

dspp

Having had time to look up your TLAs, I think you are raising strawmen here.

I can see you've never been up close & personal to a new BMW for example. It offfers OTA updates. “In the new BMW Operating System 7.0, these updates will happen over the air without the need to visit a dealer - you'll just get an alert via the app or in the car - and you'll then choose when to install the update. You'll have to be parked to let it happen, so when it's sitting on your driveway is probably best.”

This means lower NRE and their BoM is less than Tesla’s so they can offer this technology at a lower price than the Tesla 3.

And the two screens which BMW include in the car are ergonomically much better as they allow the driver to watch the road ahead as well as checking speed, range, navigation etc.

And BMW controls offfer HF (That's Haptic Feedback ) which Tesla screens lack:

https://www.fastcompany.com/90356020/3- ... reens-suck

I will stop there as there is a danger that we get dragged into debates about technology and engineering minutiae on this site. It becomes a “King’s new clothes” discussion.

For example, the debate about the wonderful engineering in autonomous driving completely ignored the fact that it is nothing more than a glorified cruise control and, it could be argued, a dangerous distraction to the average driver in a built up environment. Whether it develops into something worthwhile is yet to be seen, but let’s be real, it appears to be years from providing the controls for an autonomous car and the BoM costs are going to be wasted for drivers who may keep their Tesla for only three or four years.

regards

Howard M.Eng (just joking )

[odysseus2000]

For anyone interested here is a little video (in German) of the BMW hardware & operating system (7). The complexity, spread of components between the three main areas of under steering wheels, centre & around the gear stick is significantly more complicated with many more bits to fail than the model 3:

https://youtu.be/v7eC9ZnU0xQ

Regards,

[Howard]

The “Which” Car Guide arrived in the post today. They surveyed 43,958 car-owning members of the public online between Dec 2018 and Feb 2019, covering 52,443 cars. So they claim in-depth reliability data on 276 models and 34 brands.

Tesla featured in their survey. Some extracts are:

“More than one in five Model S owners with a car aged over three years had a fault with door handles/locks/fuel cap/boot. Plus one in ten owners of younger Model S and Model X owners said they had this issue. Despite Tesla claiming that they do mobile repairs, owners reported the longest repair times for all cars aged three to eight years: 5.1 days. This compares with the average for all cars aged 3-8 of 2.1 days.”

In their reliability survey of 34 brands, Tesla (sample size 199 cars) came last but one. Only Land Rover was worse. Which sums Tesla reliability as: “Shocking long-term reliability. Steering, suspension and those fancy pop-out door handles are common issues”.

Top brands for reliability over the same time-frame are, in order, Lexus, Suzuki, Toyota, Honda, Mini, Subaru, BMW, Mazda. Apart from Subaru the sample sizes were large, with BMW the largest (3,100).

Which have tested the Model 3 recently and whilst they commended the performance and spaciousness of the car, their comment “The interior quality isn’t up to scratch for a car of this price and Tesla’s brand reliability is alarmingly poor for older models.” struck a chord!

Obviously I’m biased but I wasn’t surprised the BMW 5 Series came with the highest score in the Large Cars segment and was the Best Buy. The survey showed that “The 5 Series serves up superior comfort and practicality. It also offers a dazzling array of assistance and safety technology.” Reliability is excellent - 83% of owners reported a fault-free car in the year prior to the survey (average is 74.5% for young cars).”

To see more one needs to subscribe to “Which”. https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/new-and-used-cars

regards

Howard

[Howard]

For anyone interested here is a little video (in German) of the BMW hardware & operating system (7). The complexity, spread of components between the three main areas of under steering wheels, centre & around the gear stick is significantly more complicated with many more bits to fail than the model 3:

https://youtu.be/v7eC9ZnU0xQ

Regards,

Ody

See the "Which" survey posted above. Unfortunately the Tesla brand is the most unreliable car brand in Britain (apart from Land Rover). Your views are interesting but they don't really count against a thorough survey of owners. BMW reliability is proven to be in a different league from Tesla who don't even seem to be able to get their door handles right.

They will have to try harder if they are to succeed in building quality cars of the future.

regards

Howard

[odysseus2000]

For anyone interested here is a little video (in German) of the BMW hardware & operating system (7). The complexity, spread of components between the three main areas of under steering wheels, centre & around the gear stick is significantly more complicated with many more bits to fail than the model 3:

https://youtu.be/v7eC9ZnU0xQ

Regards,

Ody

See the "Which" survey posted above. Unfortunately the Tesla brand is the most unreliable car brand in Britain (apart from Land Rover). Your views are interesting but they don't really count against a thorough survey of owners. BMW reliability is proven to be in a different league from Tesla who don't even seem to be able to get their door handles right.

They will have to try harder if they are to succeed in building quality cars of the future.

regards

Howard

Tesla cars keep selling, BEV is the future.

I expect BMW to be bought out, their balance sheet is too weak for the kind of disruptive change in autos that is coming.

I long ago abandoned any faith in Which reviews.

Regards,

[Howard]

For anyone interested here is a little video (in German) of the BMW hardware & operating system (7). The complexity, spread of components between the three main areas of under steering wheels, centre & around the gear stick is significantly more complicated with many more bits to fail than the model 3:

https://youtu.be/v7eC9ZnU0xQ

Regards,

Ody

See the "Which" survey posted above. Unfortunately the Tesla brand is the most unreliable car brand in Britain (apart from Land Rover). Your views are interesting but they don't really count against a thorough survey of owners. BMW reliability is proven to be in a different league from Tesla who don't even seem to be able to get their door handles right.

They will have to try harder if they are to succeed in building quality cars of the future.

regards

Howard

Tesla cars keep selling, BEV is the future.

I expect BMW to be bought out, their balance sheet is too weak for the kind of disruptive change in autos that is coming.

I long ago abandoned any faith in Which reviews.

Regards,

Yes any year by year survey of 43,000 car owners is likely to be rubbish .

Tesla sales appear to be slowing. And this may be true for the UK, we'll have to wait and see.

I've put my money where my mouth is and have a BMW 5 Series.

If you look at Autotrader today. You will see that the Model 3 isn't production restrained in the UK. There have been three new/virtually new Model 3s for sale for a week or two and nobody has snapped them up. A fourth car has become available in the last couple of days.

Your chance to buy the future? Immediate delivery offered.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search ... -vehicles=

regards

Howard

[odysseus2000]

Which put their own spin on things, quoting x numbers of members doesn't mean anything.

The model 3 you cite are mostly classed as nearly new models & not that much of a discount to brand new.

So, yes if some one is desperate they can have almost new for almost the same price as new.

Would you buy one? They are as far as I can tell on HP, not on lease.

Regards,

[BobbyD]

Which put their own spin on things, quoting x numbers of members doesn't mean anything.

,

Which is however exactly the periodical commonly read by people who aren't car mad but like something nice and are prepared to spend £30k plus on it....

[odysseus2000]

Which put their own spin on things, quoting x numbers of members doesn't mean anything.

,

Which is however exactly the periodical commonly read by people who aren't car mad but like something nice and are prepared to spend £30k plus on it....

Yes, it is & I commend Which for having created this market & how they continue to exploit it & have a loyal base who believe what they are being told.

It is imho a very similar franchise to the BBC & I expect both of them to run out of punters as many folk now are moving towards online experiences & are leasing expensive products.

Regards,