Musk endeavours

[odysseus2000]

It took this guy 4 months to get his performance 3, which he got less than a day a go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5eGDgfmLJE

Regards,

[tjh290633]

For folk who want easy there then comes the added real and status benefits to their choice. Leasing a BEV means no "Benefit in Kind" tax which for the modern higher rate tax papers is a must do, just as their ancestors would switch lights off, eat food past its sell by date, the current generation have paid so much tax that any saving is grabbed like their parents switched off lights, as a thing that must be done. Then there is the much lower fuel costs, the lack of city charging costs, the status of having a Tesla on the drive and the safety aspects as validated by crash test data. Buying a BEV becomes a no brainer and slowly this will imho filter down to the second hand market.

If you are a private owner, as opposed to the driver of a company car, there is no Benefit in Kind to consider.

If you run a company car, then the company will dictate how much can be spent and what cars you can choose from.

This is a spurious argument.

TJH

[odysseus2000]

For folk who want easy there then comes the added real and status benefits to their choice. Leasing a BEV means no "Benefit in Kind" tax which for the modern higher rate tax papers is a must do, just as their ancestors would switch lights off, eat food past its sell by date, the current generation have paid so much tax that any saving is grabbed like their parents switched off lights, as a thing that must be done. Then there is the much lower fuel costs, the lack of city charging costs, the status of having a Tesla on the drive and the safety aspects as validated by crash test data. Buying a BEV becomes a no brainer and slowly this will imho filter down to the second hand market.

If you are a private owner, as opposed to the driver of a company car, there is no Benefit in Kind to consider.

If you run a company car, then the company will dictate how much can be spent and what cars you can choose from.

This is a spurious argument.

TJH

Yes, for a private buyer, no Benefit in Kind relief, but for a self employed who is set up as a director there is relief and for those higher rate tax players who are employed no BIK tax is worth over £4K.

It would seem unlikely that a company with presumably valued higher rate tax payers would stop such employees getting a BEV (although sometimes demanding that the employees adds some money to the lease if more than what the company normally spends), and thence the tax relief.

As noted earlier business buyers/leasers make up a good proportion of all new car sales and many leasing companies aim their offerings at such folk.

A private buyer would still get all the relief on congestion/pollution charges that an ICE driver will have to pay. He or she may be more frugal or not depending on net worth etc. From my observations, folk with substantial disposal resources do not always splash out on high price cars, but enough do as one sees in sales of expensive premium cars.

Regards,

[BobbyD]

Tesla owner lawsuit claims software update fraudulently cut battery capacity

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - A Tesla Inc owner has filed a lawsuit against the electric vehicle maker, claiming the company limited the battery range of older vehicles via a software update to avoid a costly recall to fix what plaintiffs allege are defective batteries.

The lawsuit filed on Wednesday in Northern California federal court alleges fraud and seeks class action status for the potentially “thousands” of such Model S and X owners around the world who have seen the range of their older-generation batteries suddenly curtailed, some by as much as 40 miles (64 km).

...The issue first came to light in May. After a Model S caught fire in Hong Kong, Tesla said that out of an overabundance of caution it was revising charge and thermal management settings on Model S and X vehicles via an over-the-air software update. The goal was “to help further protect the battery and improve battery longevity,” it said. In June, it said it planned to improve the impact of the software update after some owners complained.

Some owners who have seen their cars no longer able to charge to 100% have sought redress through arbitration, while at least three have sold their cars, according to Teslamotorsclub.com forum posts. Others have disabled their Wi-Fi to avoid any software updates that could affect their range.

“Under the guise of ‘safety’ and increasing the ‘longevity’ of the batteries of the Class Vehicles, Tesla fraudulently manipulated its software with the intent to avoid its duties and legal obligations to customers to fix, repair, or replace the batteries of the Class Vehicles, all of which Tesla knew were defective, yet failed to inform its customers of the defects,” wrote the lawsuit.

The lawsuit points to a recent spate of Tesla battery fires, and claims that instead of informing its customers about a potential fire risk, the company “chose to go behind the backs of its customers and use software updates and throttling of the battery to avoid liability.”

- https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesl ... SKCN1UY2TW

The idea of only using around 90% of the battery at any one time to protect it's lifetime seems strangely familiar, although arguably there is an ethical difference between selling the car with an appropriately adjusted range and selling the car based on 100% pack usage and then implementing the change when it looks like you might have a firebomb/expensive replacement issue on your hands.

[BobbyD]

Tesla Model S explodes after crash with truck, reportedly on Autopilot

Tesla fires are back in the news today due to a Model S exploding after a crash with a tow truck in Moscow.

The vehicle was reportedly on Autopilot at the time of the accident.
Russian businessman Alexey Tretyakov was driving his Model S last night when it hit a tow truck that was servicing a vehicle on the highway near Moscow.

According to local media, he and his two children were severely injured and transported to the hospital.

The Model S caught on fire shortly after the accident and then exploded.

Passersby captured several impressive videos of the fire and following explosions, which happened while there was still heavy traffic around the burning vehicle:

- https://electrek.co/2019/08/10/tesla-mo ... autopilot/

...and explode isn't an exaggeration.

Model S, again.

[redsturgeon]

It took this guy 4 months to get his performance 3, which he got less than a day a go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5eGDgfmLJE

Regards,

Thanks for this Ody I have been looking for reports from UK owners.

Haven't seen the whole video yet but a couple of things I have noted already.

1. The paint looks good!

2. This is a £60,000 car!! It should be good. I am not ever going to spend that much on a car even through my company. What percentage of the population will ever buy such an expensive car? 1 or 2%?

3. He was raving about the seats in this car saying that for a £35k car they were great but surely they put different seats in the upmarket spec cars.

4. I still hate those door handles and I do not like stuff that you tap to open...more stuff to go wrong. We have just had a new kitchen, top of the range handleless German brand with Miele appliances. The knocking and tapping of everything to open doors is driving me mad! Already I have had to use the bit of bent wire they supply with the dishwasher a few time swhen I have been fed up with knocking on the door longer that a Mormon missionary in Belfast!

5. Am I the only one who thinks that having the central screen for all information is not the best idea. Every time you look at that screen you are taking your eyes off the road ahead. I use the HUD on my BMW more often than I ever though I would.

I am still weighing up whether I want a Tesla 3 but if I get one it will be the base model and not something at £60k

John

[BobbyD]

5. Am I the only one who thinks that having the central screen for all information is not the best idea. Every time you look at that screen you are taking your eyes off the road ahead. I use the HUD on my BMW more often than I ever though I would.

No, you aren't, and single screen in a £60k car...

It really does look like a tech has just mounted their tablet to perform a few checks before it carries on down the production line to have the dash fitted.

I'm interested to see the HUD in the ID3 since it's the one thing which is still completely unseen.

Top-of-range Volkswagen ID.3 models’ interiors will be particularly notable for their trick augmented reality head-up display (HUD). Like the HUDs you already see on cars today, they project information straight onto the windscreen, right into your line of sight. That will allow you to devote all your attention to the road.

Unlike what we have seen before, though, the ID.3’s HUD will be able to interact with its surroundings. In other words, sat-nav directions will appear as though they have been painted onto the road. The system could also highlight points of interest as you drive along as well as providing more conventional information such as your present MPH and the speed limit.

- https://www.carwow.co.uk/volkswagen/new ... lease-date

Mind you the dash looks like it gives you a pretty decent array of information without having to move your eyes too far from the road.



- https://electrek.co/2019/07/10/vw-id3-dashboard-video/

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iinlaeg403Q

[Howard]

It took this guy 4 months to get his performance 3, which he got less than a day a go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5eGDgfmLJE

Regards,

Ody

What a brilliant video!

I hope everyone reading this thread views every minute. It illustrates so many of the issues we have discussed here.

Redsturgeon has made some very valid comments - can I add a few.

1. Just look at the entertaining guy making the video. He’s the classic Tesla customer. Able to spend £50-£60k on a car without a second thought and I guess by his comments that he hadn’t had a test drive, just ordered it on a whim.

2. Did he buy it for environmental reasons? No way. He says he’s got a Hummer H2, an Amorok and a Tesla X . So a pretty average environmentally-conscious consumer. And he’s going to rip off all the flashy Tesla chrome trim and chuck it away to improve the look of the car.

3. He’s pretty honest about the impractical interior. Californian style stark white leather. Totally suitable for a typical family with kids and a dog.

4. Is he the type of careful purchaser in dspp’s forecasts who weighs up the cost of motoring over four years? No - he’s more delighted with the racing car video games you can play on the screen using the pedals and steering wheel of the car to control the game.

5. He’s pretty honest about the uselessness of Autonomous drive and describes it as a pain in the (backside) . But like any of us who’ve spent a lot of money on something which doesn’t quite deliver what it promised, he makes the best of it.

6. He admits the car has a bumpy and hard ride.

7. He feels compelled to drive at what a viewer commenting below reckons is 100mph on a narrow road within a day of getting the car. He’s canny enough to electronically obscure the speedo while he does it.

I have to ask dspp, is he fairly typical of your colleagues considering replacing their family saloons?

When I ordered a BMW330e for my wife, I admit I looked at a few videos posted by guys who’d just got one. They were typical middle manager family orientated blokes who were delighted with a car which was upmarket but with virtually all the features needed by a family. They showed how you could fit a bike in the car with the seats folded and talked about the economy of the car and the smoothness of the hybrid drive etc.

Yes, I’m sure we can find videos of drivers demonstrating ridiculously powerful Mercedes and BMWs but they are a tiny minority driving cars designed for a very small market segment.

This Tesla video illustrates so well how the marketing policy of Tesla attracts drivers who have to keep accelerating ludicrously, drive at ridiculous speeds and use a glorified cruise control at the limits of its capabilities.

Ody, I think you have offered us a wonderful illustration of the Tesla conundrum.

regards

Howard

[BobbyD]

This Tesla video illustrates so well how the marketing policy of Tesla attracts drivers who have to keep accelerating ludicrously, drive at ridiculous speeds and use a glorified cruise control at the limits of its capabilities.

"You can see way ahead that there's nobody around, and we're going the speed limit so it doesn't matter anyway," *.

It's an interesting approach to road safety.

* Probably not 'going the speed limit' as most people wouldn't bother pixelating a legal speed.

[odysseus2000]

There is some misunderstanding regarding this video.

Youtube exists to attract advertisers.

Each content creator is rewarded by a kick back from the revenue that youtube get from the advertisers with the more users, the more money. This youtube user also gets money from Tesla by having folk buy a Tesla via his referral link.

The key to youtube income is number of subscribers and a demographic that is attractive to advertisers.

This creator has 53k subscribers and this video has had over 38k views. By contrast this entire thread on the Lemon Fool has had over 90k views with over 2800 replies. Clearly the creator has a demographic that like his video and he is running them well. I suspect, but I don’t know, that Lemon Fool management would not be upset if this thread had a similar eyeball take up with associated advertising revenue.

I have no knowledge of what income this content creator trousers from youtube but I would be surprised if it is less than say £5k per year plus income from Tesla and his other current sponsor. The £60K he says he has laid out will not be all lost.

The viewer demographic of this creator clearly like speed and very detailed technical looks at all the features of the 3 and imho the creator has done a good job for his target demographic and has also provided for folk not in his demographic a good look at the 3 and how remarkable a speed machine it is.

Doing the sorts of things this creator does is not of personal interest to me, but from an investor perspective it is as it tells me something about one of the demographics who are clearly Tesla buyers and also about the performance of the 3.

Extrapolating from what this video shows to all Tesla buyers is imho not sensible. i am sure there are other users who value other aspects of the 3 although i have no idea of the relative consumption by other dynamics in the UK, although in California it appears to me that the 3 is attractive to many of the driving demographics and I would not be surprised if similar things happened here.

In terms of one of the oft asked question here: The video tells us that a buyer for the £60k model had to wait 4 months supporting, at least in my view, the argument that Tesla UK are supply limited.

Regards,

[dspp]

I have to ask dspp, is he fairly typical of your colleagues considering replacing their family saloons?

Howard

Some of the people I have cited are definitely not replacing family saloons. Unless thrashing them on empty A roads is what families do (and most don't).

They are very aware that dino-juice is falling off a cliff. So they are hesitating as they see very little downside from delay.

They are classic BMW drivers. Watching them, BMW should be very afraid of the future.

regards, dspp

[Howard]

This looks like a balanced review of the entry level UK Tesla.

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/tes ... irst-drive

Summary - good around town but not so good on motorways.

regards

Howard

[Howard]

I have to ask dspp, is he fairly typical of your colleagues considering replacing their family saloons?

Howard

Some of the people I have cited are definitely not replacing family saloons. Unless thrashing them on empty A roads is what families do (and most don't).

They are very aware that dino-juice is falling off a cliff. So they are hesitating as they see very little downside from delay.

They are classic BMW drivers. Watching them, BMW should be very afraid of the future.

regards, dspp

I don't quite understand your reply, dspp.

Would a summary be:

Your colleagues aren't going to switch to a Tesla Model 3?

They are instead sticking with their current BMWs but may not upgrade to another BMW?

They think demand for ICE cars is falling dramatically so they are waiting to see if some more attractive new BEVs will be launched in the UK?

regards

Howard

[redsturgeon]

This looks like a balanced review of the entry level UK Tesla.

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/tes ... irst-drive

Summary - good around town but not so good on motorways.

regards

Howard

Thanks for this Howard.

This would be the car I'd be looking at. Good to hear they think it is well put together I'd guess that the right hand drive models were not being built in the tent during the major push for production last year!

I like the fact that you have the full Tesla charging network at your disposal even if not free and the range seems good enough for most trips anyway.

I note they have the same concerns as I have about the central display for everything, I just don't think that it is ergonomically optimal.

0-60 in 5.4 secs and max 140 is enough for anyone who does indulge in track days!

At £6k down and £400 per month it is a serious contender for my cash.

John

[BobbyD]

Summary - good around town but not so good on motorways.

So it's a mildly over-ranged shopping trolley? There's an irony.

[BobbyD]

I like the fact that you have the full Tesla charging network at your disposal even if not free and the range seems good enough for most trips anyway.

Not the most extensive network in the UK: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/findus/list ... %20Kingdom

For comparison Polar, which is the most extensive network in the UK, has 7000 points.

https://www.zap-map.com/charge-points/p ... -networks/

[Howard]

There is some misunderstanding regarding this video.

In terms of one of the oft asked question here: The video tells us that a buyer for the £60k model had to wait 4 months supporting, at least in my view, the argument that Tesla UK are supply limited.

Regards,

Ody

When BMW introduced the 330e, in 2016 I had to wait around six months for delivery. So 4 months isn't long to wait for a new car.

Interestingly BMW sold more than 13,700 330e models in the UK up to the first quarter of 2019.

https://www.nextgreencar.com/electric-cars/statistics/

And my question about sales of Tesla Model 3s may have been answered by a Seeking Alpha article today:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/428485 ... nus-9?dr=1

If this is correct, Tesla have only sold 442 Model 3s in the UK since they launched in July. So I can't believe that this small number is caused by production problems. Surely it is lack of demand?

If BMW can sell literally thousands of just one of their plug-in hybrid models in the first year of production, Tesla ought to be able to generate more sales than this.

Sorry to keep repeating this, but I don't think their internet marketing approach is working in Europe. And let's say they are able to sell a few thousand in the next year, this won't get enough volume for them to build a decent service operation.

Will it be worthwhile their building a rhd version of the model Y at this rate?

regards

Howard

[odysseus2000]

If this is correct, Tesla have only sold 442 Model 3s in the UK since they launched in July. So I can't believe that this small number is caused by production problems. Surely it is lack of demand?

If BMW can sell literally thousands of just one of their plug-in hybrid models in the first year of production, Tesla ought to be able to generate more sales than this.

Sorry to keep repeating this, but I don't think their internet marketing approach is working in Europe. And let's say they are able to sell a few thousand in the next year, this won't get enough volume for them to build a decent service operation.

Will it be worthwhile their building a rhd version of the model Y at this rate?

regards

Howard

Hi Howard,

Let us not forget that the Tesla rhd, have not been long on sale in the UK and that Tesla does not currently have a European factory, so that US output has to provide all cars for the world.

If there was massive over supply then I would imagine that a cash buyer would get his 3 very quickly. Tesla would (if in over supply mode) imho have a stock pile in Europe of cars and would get a car to a cash buyer a lot faster than 4 months.

BMW by contrast has several factories including one in Oxford and yet they took 6 months to get a car to you. Does this tell you anything much about BMW, demand for their cars... I would suggest not.

To get any idea of UK 3 demand will need several months of sales, preferably a year. Making statements on UK 3 demand is likely to be as inaccurate as all the early estimates of US sales when each model was launched.

Regards,

[redsturgeon]

If this is correct, Tesla have only sold 442 Model 3s in the UK since they launched in July. So I can't believe that this small number is caused by production problems. Surely it is lack of demand?

If BMW can sell literally thousands of just one of their plug-in hybrid models in the first year of production, Tesla ought to be able to generate more sales than this.

Sorry to keep repeating this, but I don't think their internet marketing approach is working in Europe. And let's say they are able to sell a few thousand in the next year, this won't get enough volume for them to build a decent service operation.

Will it be worthwhile their building a rhd version of the model Y at this rate?

regards

Howard

Hi Howard,

Let us not forget that the Tesla rhd, have not been long on sale in the UK and that Tesla does not currently have a European factory, so that US output has to provide all cars for the world.

If there was massive over supply then I would imagine that a cash buyer would get his 3 very quickly. Tesla would (if in over supply mode) imho have a stock pile in Europe of cars and would get a car to a cash buyer a lot faster than 4 months.

BMW by contrast has several factories including one in Oxford and yet they took 6 months to get a car to you. Does this tell you anything much about BMW, demand for their cars... I would suggest not.

To get any idea of UK 3 demand will need several months of sales, preferably a year. Making statements on UK 3 demand is likely to be as inaccurate as all the early estimates of US sales when each model was launched.

Regards,

Hi Ody,

As you probably know, they build Minis in Oxford, not the BMW 330e that Howard ordered.

Wait times may be indicative of many things, BMW and VW for instance build cars to order, there are over one million different specs for a Mini so how could you do anything else. I ordered my VW in February and had to wait until July for it.

Who knows how Tesla are building their RHD vehicles or how many. I have little doubt if they shipped a few thousand over here that they could sell them, but what spec? Do they build cars to order or just build a mix and hope that it matches demand?

I'm not even sure it is worth the hassle for Tesla to build RHD cars.

John

[odysseus2000]

The 3 was designedly to be symmetric, so that the changes between lh & rh drive are very simple:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3 ... irst-look/

Given the markets in the UK, Australia & Japan a model 3 right hand drive is a no brainer.

Yes, I know that the BMW Oxford factory is predominantly mini, but I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly, that they had other production capability there too.

None the less the length of time the 3 has been available in the UK is not imho long enough, especially as there is no marketing to give a proper feel for what demand will be.

The large iPad like display module does not seem to trouble US drivers, so I imagine after a little while it won't trouble UK drivers, but one can either test drive or return a 3 after a short time if not test driven should a buyer find it impossible or loathe it.

It will be interesting to see what 3 UK demand is like in another few months. Although folk on this board know all about electric cars, I don't see the same knowledge in less focused folk & with Brexit still uncertain I don't feel that 3 sales are currently indicative of longer term Tesla demand,

Regards,