Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to Wasron,jfgw,Rhyd6,eyeball08,Wondergirly, for Donating to support the site

Musk endeavours

The Big Picture Place
odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6447
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1565 times
Been thanked: 977 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232056

Postby odysseus2000 » June 25th, 2019, 10:24 pm

Howard wrote:A good omen for electric cars?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48762911

I didn't realise that Paris was so polluted.

regards

Howard

PS The very hot forecast for the next few days may increase the pressure for action.


Yes, imho.

I believe it is now only a short time to the point when most big cities forbid the use of ice transportation.

If that happens folk in cities will have no option but to get an electric car. It looks to me to be a re-run of the legislation & enforcement that was introduced to curtail fogs in the uk with huge success. If you ask anyone who experienced the 1950's pea-soupers about whether things got better I will be surprised if any of them would want to go back to the unrestricted coal burning that was then common.

Regards,

tjh290633
Lemon Half
Posts: 8289
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:20 am
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 4138 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232116

Postby tjh290633 » June 26th, 2019, 9:51 am

You do realise that the Clean Air Act prompted the move from coal to natural gas for domestic heating. The recent urban pollution problems may be better addressed by a switch from diesel to CNG for urban transport. At least two bus companies have given up hybrid diesel in favour of CNG on cost grounds. CNG eliminates particulates and the NOX is taken care of by exhaust treatment.

Reduced CO2 (if that is a real concern) and reduced pollution which affects the urban atmosphere. Simpler and more effective than battery electric.

TJH

dspp
Lemon Half
Posts: 5884
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 5825 times
Been thanked: 2127 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232128

Postby dspp » June 26th, 2019, 11:14 am

tjh290633 wrote:You do realise that the Clean Air Act prompted the move from coal to natural gas for domestic heating. The recent urban pollution problems may be better addressed by a switch from diesel to CNG for urban transport. At least two bus companies have given up hybrid diesel in favour of CNG on cost grounds. CNG eliminates particulates and the NOX is taken care of by exhaust treatment.

Reduced CO2 (if that is a real concern) and reduced pollution which affects the urban atmosphere. Simpler and more effective than battery electric.

TJH


Why do half a job. Go straight to electric. Simples. (Oh, and add more solar and more wind to the generating mix, so that the current 2019 UK mix of 50% non-fossil climbs to 80% pdq)
- dspp

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6447
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1565 times
Been thanked: 977 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232149

Postby odysseus2000 » June 26th, 2019, 12:21 pm

tjh290633 wrote:You do realise that the Clean Air Act prompted the move from coal to natural gas for domestic heating. The recent urban pollution problems may be better addressed by a switch from diesel to CNG for urban transport. At least two bus companies have given up hybrid diesel in favour of CNG on cost grounds. CNG eliminates particulates and the NOX is taken care of by exhaust treatment.

Reduced CO2 (if that is a real concern) and reduced pollution which affects the urban atmosphere. Simpler and more effective than battery electric.

TJH


A lot of political thinking goes along the lines of cost benefit analysis.

The benefits of having cars/(public transport) are believed to outweigh the costs from pollution and deaths/injuries that such transport leads to.

So the evils of such transport have been allowed due to the believed greater blessings.

We have now reached a state where some of the evils of powered transport can be reduced. If we go from ICE to BEV we eliminate all the pollution negatives of ICE and much of the brake dust too, but we are still left with the injuries and deaths which will presumably be allowed based on the usual cost/benefit analysis.

The analysis that we can make things better by getting shut of diesel and using CNG were all known for decades and several manufacturers offered CNG cars and buses etc, but there were down sides such as increased engine wear and there was no widespread adoption.

For politicians seeking re-election there are likely votes in saying we will move transport technology from the 20th to the 21st century and this will make many things better for our voters who we are here to serve etc etc.

This thinking leads me to believe that the switch to BEV at least in cities will be fast, the constraint now looks to be batteries. If this happens legacy auto is going to be in a pickle as suddenly a lot of their product lines will have a much reduced market.

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232150

Postby BobbyD » June 26th, 2019, 12:24 pm

tjh290633 wrote:You do realise that the Clean Air Act prompted the move from coal to natural gas for domestic heating. The recent urban pollution problems may be better addressed by a switch from diesel to CNG for urban transport. At least two bus companies have given up hybrid diesel in favour of CNG on cost grounds. CNG eliminates particulates and the NOX is taken care of by exhaust treatment.

Reduced CO2 (if that is a real concern) and reduced pollution which affects the urban atmosphere. Simpler and more effective than battery electric.

TJH


Our local bus company has just bought its first battery powered busses in to service.

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6447
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1565 times
Been thanked: 977 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232151

Postby odysseus2000 » June 26th, 2019, 12:29 pm

Interesting article with vide showing how a Tesla avoids being hit by driver barging into space where the Tesla is:

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/25/te ... oming-car/

I doubt a human driver alone could have avoided this potential accident.

Regards,

tjh290633
Lemon Half
Posts: 8289
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:20 am
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 4138 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232170

Postby tjh290633 » June 26th, 2019, 2:15 pm

BobbyD wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:You do realise that the Clean Air Act prompted the move from coal to natural gas for domestic heating. The recent urban pollution problems may be better addressed by a switch from diesel to CNG for urban transport. At least two bus companies have given up hybrid diesel in favour of CNG on cost grounds. CNG eliminates particulates and the NOX is taken care of by exhaust treatment.

Reduced CO2 (if that is a real concern) and reduced pollution which affects the urban atmosphere. Simpler and more effective than battery electric.

TJH


Our local bus company has just bought its first battery powered busses in to service.

Taking advantage, no doubt, of the subsidies available for the purpose. There is a move to convert diesel hybrids back to pure diesel when batteries need to be replaced. Replacement has turned out to be unaffordable.

TJH

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6447
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1565 times
Been thanked: 977 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232203

Postby odysseus2000 » June 26th, 2019, 6:53 pm

Tesla to make its own batteries?:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/26/tesla-s ... dency.html

Regards,

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6447
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1565 times
Been thanked: 977 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232323

Postby odysseus2000 » June 27th, 2019, 12:44 pm

Why the model 3 is so safe:

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/26/wh ... net-video/

Video is worth watching.

Regards,

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2193
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 887 times
Been thanked: 1021 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232376

Postby Howard » June 27th, 2019, 5:53 pm

Further comment on Tesla making its own batteries from the FT. Adds a little more to the CNBC story.

https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/06/27/ ... n-its-own/

And there is a longer article in the Asian review.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Cover ... lationship

It will be interesting to see what the market reaction is. I guess it won't be cheap to start up in competition with Panasonic, but Tesla may feel they have an advantage. Something for Tesla shareholders to mull over. They don't have a boring life do they!

regards

Howard

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232386

Postby BobbyD » June 27th, 2019, 7:27 pm

Howard wrote:Further comment on Tesla making its own batteries from the FT. Adds a little more to the CNBC story.

https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/06/27/ ... n-its-own/

And there is a longer article in the Asian review.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Cover ... lationship

It will be interesting to see what the market reaction is. I guess it won't be cheap to start up in competition with Panasonic, but Tesla may feel they have an advantage. Something for Tesla shareholders to mull over. They don't have a boring life do they!

regards

Howard


I thought it was long accepted that Tesla were looking to get in to batteries, eventually letting Pana go heir own way ...and if it was just me wasn't Musk's recent comment about potentially getting in to mining in order to secure battery production a little bit of a clue?


Rent a VW BEV for a few hours:

Volkswagen’s previously announced electric car sharing service, WeShare, officially kicked off today in Berlin. The launch brings 1,500 e-Golf vehicles to the city’s streets, with more electric models to follow.

VW first announced the service last year, noting that it would launch by the second quarter of this year. The carmaker has followed through on its plans with just a few days to spare.

As expected, the service starts in Berlin with 1,500 e-Golfs. Those will be followed by an addition of 500 e-up! vehicles at the start of 2020, as well as VW’s upcoming ID.3 electric hatchback when that model is introduced in mid-2020. By that time, the WeShare Berlin fleet will feature more than 2,000 EVs on city streets.

WeShare will go beyond Berlin, as well, as Volkswagen also announced a few more details about the planned expansion of the service. Partnering with its Czech brand Škoda, WeShare will arrive in Prague in 2020. The service is also planned for another German city, Hamburg, later next year.


- https://electrek.co/2019/06/27/volkswag ... ng-launch/

Electric transportation taking off?

Siemens is selling their eAircraft business unit for electric plane motors to Rolls-Royce. The transaction is expected to be completed by the end of 2019.

The business unit for electrified propulsion systems for aircraft will have “substantially better growth perspectives with new owners closely connected to the aerospace industry,” Siemens stated in support of the sale. The partners have agreed not to disclose the financial details of the transaction.


- https://www.electrive.com/2019/06/18/si ... -business/

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6447
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1565 times
Been thanked: 977 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232564

Postby odysseus2000 » June 28th, 2019, 2:47 pm

Trailer for a new Movie: The Current War. For anyone who does not know the Edison-Tesla-Westinghouse story this will likely be useful background:

https://youtu.be/bx3gaLQNwig

Regards,

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2193
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 887 times
Been thanked: 1021 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232693

Postby Howard » June 29th, 2019, 10:20 am

For anyone considering personally leasing a Model 3 in the UK the costs are now easy to find out.

I have chosen a basic 6+35 month deal with a maximum of 10k miles per year for the cheapest Standard Plus 4 door Auto saloon. This will cost £507 a month, and including the initial payment it is a total of £21,000 over the three years.

Obviously the cost will be higher if one's mileage is higher than 10k a year. If I was leasing the Tesla, I'd want to include a maintenance and tyre replacement package which I conservatively guess would be from £50 a month extra. And adding metallic paint and a couple of other extras will probably put on another £50 a month.

So I'm guessing the total cost would be around £600 a month. So that's £24,600 for three years. The only other cost apart from electricity would be insurance.

If readers are interested to check my calculations, look at Leasing.com for the figures. Amusingly the cheapest Tesla quote is from a leasing company called "Chicane Automotive Management Ltd".

As a comparison I chose a BMW 3 Series touring special edition 320d M Sport Auto and using the same assumptions as above, the base cost is £309 a month which is a total of £12,655 over the three years. Adding just under £100 a month for maintenance, metallic paint and a few other extras, the total cost rises to £400 a month and a total of £16,400 over three years.

So the extra cost for a Tesla over a BMW is around £8,200 over three years. I'm guessing that the insurance on a Tesla will be quite a bit higher than the BMW but the running costs for the Tesla should be cheaper. (I'd guess the BMW would get around 40-50 mpg.)

Hopefully a well-heeled Lemon Fool subscriber, or acquaintance, will be tempted to lease a Tesla and tell us their experience. For the record, I leased a BMW 5 series last year (pleasingly for less than the cost of the 3 Series above) and am delighted with the car.

regards

Howard

dspp
Lemon Half
Posts: 5884
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 5825 times
Been thanked: 2127 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232710

Postby dspp » June 29th, 2019, 11:26 am

Howard wrote:For anyone considering personally leasing a Model 3 in the UK the costs are now easy to find out.

I have chosen a basic 6+35 month deal with a maximum of 10k miles per year for the cheapest Standard Plus 4 door Auto saloon. This will cost £507 a month, and including the initial payment it is a total of £21,000 over the three years.

Obviously the cost will be higher if one's mileage is higher than 10k a year. If I was leasing the Tesla, I'd want to include a maintenance and tyre replacement package which I conservatively guess would be from £50 a month extra. And adding metallic paint and a couple of other extras will probably put on another £50 a month.

So I'm guessing the total cost would be around £600 a month. So that's £24,600 for three years. The only other cost apart from electricity would be insurance.

If readers are interested to check my calculations, look at Leasing.com for the figures. Amusingly the cheapest Tesla quote is from a leasing company called "Chicane Automotive Management Ltd".

As a comparison I chose a BMW 3 Series touring special edition 320d M Sport Auto and using the same assumptions as above, the base cost is £309 a month which is a total of £12,655 over the three years. Adding just under £100 a month for maintenance, metallic paint and a few other extras, the total cost rises to £400 a month and a total of £16,400 over three years.

So the extra cost for a Tesla over a BMW is around £8,200 over three years. I'm guessing that the insurance on a Tesla will be quite a bit higher than the BMW but the running costs for the Tesla should be cheaper. (I'd guess the BMW would get around 40-50 mpg.)

Hopefully a well-heeled Lemon Fool subscriber, or acquaintance, will be tempted to lease a Tesla and tell us their experience. For the record, I leased a BMW 5 series last year (pleasingly for less than the cost of the 3 Series above) and am delighted with the car.

regards

Howard


Howard,

That's good info, thank you. So over three years Tesla model 3 is £21,000 vs BMW 3 at £16,400, both excluding fuel/energy.

Regarding fuel costs. Assume the comparison is a dino-juice car doing real world 40mpg diesel (that is what my Golf mk4, 2.0 litre diesel consistently achieved). That's 12 miles per liter, and £1.25 per liter. So 10.5p per mile in fuel costs. You are assuming 10,000/year, so for the BMW that will be approx £1050 in fuel per year, or £3150 over three years. Now The Tesla does 16 kWh/100 km, or 16kWh/62 miles. So 30,000 miles = 7741 kWh. If buying from grid at £0.15/kWh (and remember, you could do as I do and buy pure non-fossil electricity from Good Energy to avoid risk of just becoming a remote emitter) that is £1160 per three years.

Tesla 3 : £21,000 + £1160 = £22,160
BMW 3 : £16,400 + £3150 = £19,550

That's getting quite close. Just a £2160 difference over three years. If one were home charging from domestic 'spill' PV that would benefit the Tesla further, but to a first approximation that is cost parity already.

Insurance is likely to be higher on the Tesla to begin with due to rarity factor, but quite quickly I would expect convergence to make that a parity figure.

However what could easily swing the equation is congestion charging / pollution charging. The London ULEZ is £12.50/day. So if you are doing four days/week in London ULEZ for 40 weeks/year then that is 4 x 40 x 3 x £12.50 = £6,000.

.... mmmmmm £6,000 saving over 3-years in ULEV emissions charges vs a small £2160 increase in (lease+energy/fuel) costs. On that basis this looks like a no-brainer purchase already on purely economic grounds for anybody who thinks they are going to be a ULEV payer.

Please excuse me if I have done the London ULEV numbers wrong. And please correct me if I should also be including congestion charging.

It looks to me as if there is no longer any excuse for hybrids to get a ULEV exemption. We all know most hybrid users don't plug them in. They just buy them to get an exemption. Which there is no longer a fig leaf of an excuse for.

regards, dspp

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6447
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1565 times
Been thanked: 977 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232742

Postby odysseus2000 » June 29th, 2019, 1:38 pm

Interesting to look at what the overall costs to go mostly solar are within the leasing frame work.

A 4 kW roof solar is about £ 5k installed. A Tesla power wall 2 is about £8 k installed.

If we compare the lease cost of the basic Tesla and the basic BMW we have

£21k v £12.7K

Then add in the roof solar and powerwall, it comes to

Tesla £21k + £5k + £8k = £34k

BMW + fuel = £12.7k + £3.2k =£15.9k

Tesla + say 10% for when no solar = £34k + £116 =£34.2k

The powerwall plus solar is good for about 12 years, say 4 leases, so that if the system is kept, the cost for each of the 4 leases is £13k/4 =£3.3K

So the Tesla cost is £21.2k + £3.3k =£24.5K

We have no idea what will happen regarding carbon taxes, congestion charges etc but it is likely that these things will slowly become an increasing part of car costs, whereas the Tesla + solar + powerwall has a good element of future proofing for the next 12 years.

Everyone will have to decide what suits them, but the economics of solar, storage and car are the best they have ever been.

It would be nice if the politicians were to incentivise the solar-BEV route by helping folk, but the incentivising may come by hurting the ice and hybrid owners in the wallet. This probably won’t hurt the leaser unless clawbacks happen at the end of the lease due to the ICE re-sale value having fallen, but the trend IMO looks to be for a move to 100% BEV leasing as soon as there are enough cars to lease.

Regards,

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6447
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1565 times
Been thanked: 977 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232744

Postby odysseus2000 » June 29th, 2019, 1:43 pm

Re the previous post, there are also some revenue returns if not all the solar is used to power the car but some is used in the house, some sold to the grid. I have no practical feel for what these might be but they should be subtracted from the Tesla price to get a better comparison.

Clearly if instead of a model 3 one has a much cheaper car, say a second hand one, then the economics skew strongly to solar. In our prosperous nation though many will likely want the no trouble benefits of a lease.

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232762

Postby BobbyD » June 29th, 2019, 3:23 pm

dspp wrote:Insurance is likely to be higher on the Tesla to begin with due to rarity factor, but quite quickly I would expect convergence to make that a parity figure.


Insurance is likely to be more for the Tesla because repair costs for the Tesla will be higher and Tesla drivers are considered less responsible than BMW drivers and have more dangerous toys with which to be irresponsible.

dspp wrote:However what could easily swing the equation is congestion charging / pollution charging. The London ULEZ is £12.50/day. So if you are doing four days/week in London ULEZ for 40 weeks/year then that is 4 x 40 x 3 x £12.50 = £6,000.


Meaning the base model Citigo-e, El Born and ID3 become profitable after 4-5 years based on cg/ulez charging alone, before you even take in to account other benefits and cost savings like the congestion charge...

Please excuse me if I have done the London ULEV numbers wrong. And please correct me if I should also be including congestion charging.


You should.

You need to pay an £11.50 daily charge if you drive within the Congestion Charge zone 07:00-18:00, Monday to Friday. If your vehicle does not meet the Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) standards, you must also pay the ULEZ charge. The ULEZ operates from midnight to midnight, 7 days a week, every day of the year.


- https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/conges ... harge-zone

so £24 x 5 (no slacking!) x 40 = £14,400 over 3 years, leaving a Citigo-e with an expected net cost of £3600, and an ID3 owing it's owner £7600 after 3 years, again before any other benefits are considered!

It's almost like the green drive has created the world's first truly disposable cars!

Albeit disposable cars built to VW's well trusted high standards.

Obviously none of this applies as long as you don't venture past the home counties. In London a Model 3 is a lot cheaper to run than a BMW, but a lot more expensive to run than the coming range of truly mass market BEVs. Outside London a Model 3 is more expensive to run than an equivalent BMW and the coming range of truly mass market BEVs. It's an interesting niche.

odysseus2000 wrote:Interesting to look at what the overall costs to go mostly solar are within the leasing frame work.

A 4 kW roof solar is about £ 5k installed. A Tesla power wall 2 is about £8 k installed.


So 45 KWh ID3 + Solar roof + Power wall + change = Model 3

Puts mass market claims in to perspective...

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232770

Postby BobbyD » June 29th, 2019, 4:25 pm

BMW's Klaus Frölich says calls for long range BEVs are "complete bulls**t" because Europeans can't afford them.
“There is no customer requests for BEVs,” said Klaus Frölich, BMW’s director of development, at an interview in Munich last week. “There are regulator requests for BEVs.”


- https://insideevs.com/news/357048/bmw-d ... peans-evs/

..."If we have a big offer, a big incentive, we could flood Europe and sell a million cars but Europeans won’t buy these things," claims Frölich. "Customers in Europe do not buy EVs. We pressed these cars into the market and they’re not wanted. (...) We can deliver an electrified vehicle to each person but they will not buy them."

Frölich goes on to explain that he believes electricity is too expensive in many countries. He gives the example of Munich where energy costs reach 50c / kWh, making it cheaper to drive a diesel than an electric vehicle. He compares this to France, where energy costs are below 20c / kWh.

However, Germany has the highest energy costs in Europe, and Munich is among the upper end in the country. The average German household pays a lower rate than his incredibly specific example.


It might be more accurate to say that there is not a great demand for BMW EV's ...and that closing down all your nuclear power stations before deciding everybody should go electric may not have been a great idea...

It's probably also true that BMW suffer from 'only' producing 2.5 million cars a year giving them less flexibility and fewer cars to spread costs across, to a relatively small market segment, and that segment may not be particularly enthusiastic about the moving to electric. To say as he goes on to, that it's a matter of customer affordability rather overlooks the fact that the i3 is being outsold by a BEV which costs twice as much, more like BMW can't afford to produce them.



In May 2019, Plug-In Electric Car Sales In Europe Exceeded 36,000

Sales of BEVs increased 85% year-over-year to 22,800, while PHEVs further decreased 13% to 13,400

This past month, some 36,200 plug-ins were registered, although PHEVs are still dropping. The quickest segment of the market turns out to be all-electric cars, as the sales increase amounted to 85%!

BEVs: 22,800 (up 85% year-over-year)
PHEVs: 13,400 (down 13% year-over-year)
HEVs: 59,600 (up 35% year-over-year)
Total: 95,800 at 7.1% market share


https://insideevs.com/news/356644/may-2 ... ope-36000/

Don't tell Klaus...

Global plug-in electric car sales increased in May by just 12%, which is a relatively low result compared to what we're accustomed to. The biggest factor was the slow down in China, which increased only by 2% (below the global average rate).

In total, sales amounted to roughly 179,000 at 2.3% market share.

See more our sales reports for May 2019 here.

73% of all plug-ins were all-electric cars, which also increased by 22% year-over-year.


https://insideevs.com/news/357198/globa ... -may-2019/

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6447
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1565 times
Been thanked: 977 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232787

Postby odysseus2000 » June 29th, 2019, 7:32 pm

BobbyD
BMW's Klaus Frölich says calls for long range BEVs are "complete bulls**t" because Europeans can't afford them.
“There is no customer requests for BEVs,” said Klaus Frölich, BMW’s director of development, at an interview in Munich last week. “There are regulator requests for BEVs.”



So as expected, legacy is doing its best to convince anyone and everyone that Europe doesn't need BEV and that people don't want them.

He might as well have been the guy at Kodak who didn't see the camera on the mobile phone, or the guys at Nokia who thought the iPhone was what no one wanted.

BMW are doomed.

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#232793

Postby BobbyD » June 29th, 2019, 8:36 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:So as expected, legacy is doing its best to convince anyone and everyone that Europe doesn't need BEV and that people don't want them.


I'm impressed that you've moved on from stereotyping all German companies as being the same, not convinced about the direction you've taken though.


Return to “Macro and Global Topics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests