Musk endeavours

[odysseus2000]

There have been some suggestions that Kia have more range that Tesla. This I am finding difficult to verify and this recent road trip in the extreme cold of Norway demonstrates how much better Tesla is than the Kia:

https://youtu.be/YlucsA-ugqc

From what Howard writes, if I have understood him correctly, his assertion that the Kia out performs the Tesla is based on Which studies which he rates highly and which I rate lowly and in any case give some over view with no details on how data is collected whereas the measurements here show all the aspects of the trip and in this case show that the Kia uses something like 100% more (up to 5 kW) to maintain heat in the car and which does not heat the battery to optimise charging. As I understand it, the KIA is also more expensive than the Tesla model 3 and is in limited supply.

The argument that the Kia is a much better choice than the 3 as apparently Which state, does not fit with what I learning from practical studies where all the information is available as in this road trip.

Regards,

[Howard]

There have been some suggestions that Kia have more range that Tesla. This I am finding difficult to verify and this recent road trip in the extreme cold of Norway demonstrates how much better Tesla is than the Kia:

https://youtu.be/YlucsA-ugqc

From what Howard writes, if I have understood him correctly, his assertion that the Kia out performs the Tesla is based on Which studies which he rates highly and which I rate lowly and in any case give some over view with no details on how data is collected whereas the measurements here show all the aspects of the trip and in this case show that the Kia uses something like 100% more (up to 5 kW) to maintain heat in the car and which does not heat the battery to optimise charging. As I understand it, the KIA is also more expensive than the Tesla model 3 and is in limited supply.

The argument that the Kia is a much better choice than the 3 as apparently Which state, does not fit with what I learning from practical studies where all the information is available as in this road trip.

Regards,

Sandy will tell you that in typical UK conditions Hyundai and Kia have significantly better ranges than the Model 3.

That may not be true in extreme conditions. But sadly the Norwegians are voting with their wallets and seem to be abandoning Teslas for VWs at the moment.

Why don't you read the Tesla UK owners threads? You'll see numerous examples of owners really disappointed with range. And maybe you will agree with the experts in Physics who point out that if you turn the cabin heating off on a long journey and freeze with the occasional seat heating on, you can stretch the range.

Advice includes driving slowly and avoiding motorways. I'm not making this up!

I'm not advising buying an ICE car now, but I could get a range of over 750 miles from my recent diesel Merc and that was mainly driving at 70 mph. In winter it may have dropped 10% but no more.

regards

Howard

[BobbyD]

JD Power, latest EV survery, ranks Tesla as number 1:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-jd-powe ... hip-study/

Regards,

Howard

The JD Power survey may be right or wrong, but at least it is a current fact!

Ha Ha!

Anything lacking facts more than a survey is difficult for me to imagine.

Regards

[odysseus2000]

Howard
Why don't you read the Tesla UK owners threads? You'll see numerous examples of owners really disappointed with range. And maybe you will agree with the experts in Physics who point out that if you turn the cabin heating off on a long journey and freeze with the occasional seat heating on, you can stretch the range.

Without video to show exactly what the folk are doing, what car model they are driving and all the associated information it is very difficult to know if one should take the comments at face value.

Similarly with the the KIA, what is their watt/per mile consumption? Are the comparisons like for like, i.e. battery size corrected, same roads, temperatures etc etc. If one does not have apples for apples comparisons the results are meaningless.

As things are I can find no physics reason why Kia should have better range in UK conditions than model 3. The technical specs suggest the reverse.

I have asked before if anyone can direct me to information that shows how Kia are apparently getting better ranges than Tesla, but I have had none. Consequently I am very suspicious of the claimed KIA performance.

Regards,

[Howard]

Howard
Why don't you read the Tesla UK owners threads? You'll see numerous examples of owners really disappointed with range. And maybe you will agree with the experts in Physics who point out that if you turn the cabin heating off on a long journey and freeze with the occasional seat heating on, you can stretch the range.

Without video to show exactly what the folk are doing, what car model they are driving and all the associated information it is very difficult to know if one should take the comments at face value.

Similarly with the the KIA, what is their watt/per mile consumption? Are the comparisons like for like, i.e. battery size corrected, same roads, temperatures etc etc. If one does not have apples for apples comparisons the results are meaningless.

As things are I can find no physics reason why Kia should have better range in UK conditions than model 3. The technical specs suggest the reverse.

I have asked before if anyone can direct me to information that shows how Kia are apparently getting better ranges than Tesla, but I have had none. Consequently I am very suspicious of the claimed KIA performance.

Regards,

“There’s none so blind who will not see”.

You have been directed to this survey before. And also to the Tesla drivers' threads. Happy to guide you to them again.

“What Car” survey. Other surveys are available.

Hyundai Kona Electric 64kWh
Real Range - 259 miles
Miles per kWh - 3.6
Full charge cost - £10.09
Cost per mile - £0.039

Tesla Model 3 Long Range

Real Range - 211 miles
Miles per kWh - 2.6
Full charge cost - £11.55
Cost per mile - £0.055

Other Teslas have lower ranges see the test results: https://www.whatcar.com/news/what-car-r ... rld/n18161

And, why not look at this thread of Model 3 drivers worried about their range in UK weather. Other threads are available.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 336/page-2

While you are on the site you might be interested to read about the drivers whose partners are scared stiff by phantom braking and swerving and refuse to drive the cars.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 179/page-8

They are all driving Tesla Model 3s.

Happy reading.

Howard

[dspp]

Bjorn seems happy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQVEmVy ... e=youtu.be

Are these UK issues MIF vs MIC ?

[odysseus2000]

“There’s none so blind who will not see”.

You have been directed to this survey before. And also to the Tesla drivers' threads. Happy to guide you to them again.



“What Car” survey. Other surveys are available.

Hyundai Kona Electric 64kWh
Real Range - 259 miles
Miles per kWh - 3.6
Full charge cost - £10.09
Cost per mile - £0.039

Tesla Model 3 Long Range

Real Range - 211 miles
Miles per kWh - 2.6
Full charge cost - £11.55
Cost per mile - £0.055

Other Teslas have lower ranges see the test results: https://www.whatcar.com/news/what-car-r ... rld/n18161

And, why not look at this thread of Model 3 drivers worried about their range in UK weather. Other threads are available.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 336/page-2

While you are on the site you might be interested to read about the drivers whose partners are scared stiff by phantom braking and swerving and refuse to drive the cars.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 179/page-8

They are all driving Tesla Model 3s.

Happy reading.



Howard

Well, thank you, "What Car" puts things into context and I can now confidently state what is going on, albeit very depressing.

In essence either "What Car" has not studied the EV market or they have not understood what they have studied. Almost everything about their survey techniques is wrong. BEV are not ICE and they require different parameters.

Tesla lead the BEV market because they understand the batteries and how to get the best life out of them. The battery specs, quoted range and weight for Kia cars tells me that either Kia do not understand BEV or they are doing a Nissan and are deliberately operating them for short term rewards at the detriment of long term life.

The reason KIA are obtaining longer range has nothing to do with uk conditions but with KIA over discharging and over charging their battery packs. This looks great in the short term as Nissan Leaf owners found out, but later on it loses its attractions fast as the battery packs deteriorate much more rapidly. All the videos I have seen show how Kia use more energy per mile, have much higher heating loads, much less efficient heating and cooling and consequently they can only get longer range by hurting the batteries.

Tesla are fully aware of these issues and restrict range and charging so as to be optimised for battery life and this includes taking note of external temperatures.

I am sorry to be harsh, but this kind of stuff is obvious to anyone with a scientific or engineering back ground and its distressing that after all your time on this board and all the posts I and others have put up, that you have not understood these basic things.

Tesla optimising the battery pack life has been known for a very long time and for What Car to ignore it or not understand it, tells me they are false prophets and should be ignored.

Regards,

[odysseus2000]

Bjorn seems happy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQVEmVy ... e=youtu.be

Are these UK issues MIF vs MIC ?

This is an excellent review by someone who loves BEV and who drives many of them and who in his many videos shows you what the car is doing and who does not try to present the car as being anything other than what he finds.

Regards,

[Howard]

“There’s none so blind who will not see”.

You have been directed to this survey before. And also to the Tesla drivers' threads. Happy to guide you to them again.



“What Car” survey. Other surveys are available.

Hyundai Kona Electric 64kWh
Real Range - 259 miles
Miles per kWh - 3.6
Full charge cost - £10.09
Cost per mile - £0.039

Tesla Model 3 Long Range

Real Range - 211 miles
Miles per kWh - 2.6
Full charge cost - £11.55
Cost per mile - £0.055

Other Teslas have lower ranges see the test results: https://www.whatcar.com/news/what-car-r ... rld/n18161

And, why not look at this thread of Model 3 drivers worried about their range in UK weather. Other threads are available.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 336/page-2

While you are on the site you might be interested to read about the drivers whose partners are scared stiff by phantom braking and swerving and refuse to drive the cars.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 179/page-8

They are all driving Tesla Model 3s.

Happy reading.



Howard

Well, thank you, "What Car" puts things into context and I can now confidently state what is going on, albeit very depressing.

In essence either "What Car" has not studied the EV market or they have not understood what they have studied. Almost everything about their survey techniques is wrong. BEV are not ICE and they require different parameters.

Tesla lead the BEV market because they understand the batteries and how to get the best life out of them. The battery specs, quoted range and weight for Kia cars tells me that either Kia do not understand BEV or they are doing a Nissan and are deliberately operating them for short term rewards at the detriment of long term life.

The reason KIA are obtaining longer range has nothing to do with uk conditions but with KIA over discharging and over charging their battery packs. This looks great in the short term as Nissan Leaf owners found out, but later on it loses its attractions fast as the battery packs deteriorate much more rapidly. All the videos I have seen show how Kia use more energy per mile, have much higher heating loads, much less efficient heating and cooling and consequently they can only get longer range by hurting the batteries.

Tesla are fully aware of these issues and restrict range and charging so as to be optimised for battery life and this includes taking note of external temperatures.

I am sorry to be harsh, but this kind of stuff is obvious to anyone with a scientific or engineering back ground and its distressing that after all your time on this board and all the posts I and others have put up, that you have not understood these basic things.

Tesla optimising the battery pack life has been known for a very long time and for What Car to ignore it or not understand it, tells me they are false prophets and should be ignored.

Regards,

Have you read the posts by Tesla drivers worried about the range of their cars? There are quite a lot of threads. Worth reading some of the very recent posts in the last few weeks.

I'm not sure you understand the problem of the short ranges achieved.

And, yes, Tesla do worry owners as they advise only charging batteries to 80% and not running below 20%. This may protect their batteries but it also means dramatically lower range.

Do you have evidence that Hyundai batteries "deteriorate rapidly". That's a bold claim. You should really give us a source for this assertion. Or is it just a theory?

regards

Howard

[Howard]

Ody

You might like to look at the site linked below. It suggests that a 2018 Tesla Model 3 battery degrades faster than a 2017 Kia Soul battery

It's a tool which provides information for fleet managers.

"If you’re considering adding electric vehicles to your fleet, understanding how quickly EV batteries will degrade will help you be more confident in your decision, as capacity loss will impact range, cost of ownership, and expected residual value.

Geotab can help by sharing how vehicle batteries are performing to-date. View aggregated average data for 24 vehicle makes and models using our Battery Degradation Tool. Our dataset is based on real-world battery health measured from 6,300 fleet and consumer EVs representing 1.8 million days of data."

I found it by googling battery degradation, there may be other sites available.

regards

Howard

https://www.geotab.com/fleet-management ... tion-tool/

[odysseus2000]

I'm not sure you understand the problem of the short ranges achieved.

And, yes, Tesla do worry owners as they advise only charging batteries to 80% and not running below 20%. This may protect their batteries but it also means dramatically lower range.

Do you have evidence that Hyundai batteries "deteriorate rapidly". That's a bold claim. You should really give us a source for this assertion. Or is it just a theory?

regards

Howard

The deterioration of batteries taken through very low charge to very high charge is a well known problem to anyone ordinarily skilled in the art of lithium ion batteries.

Tesla restrict charge range of their batteries to give the batteries maximum life as do other folk such aware, solution to this problem and that is why Tesla have invested so much in making their network of super charges.

Kia are following the tactics of the Nissan Leaf which lead to serious battery life degradation.

What Car should be explaining this to their readers, not creating a mass of nonsense statistics.

If anyone wants to operate their batteries poorly then there should be an additional cost penalty added to the range to model the loss of the value in the most expensive part of the vehicle.

Regards,

[odysseus2000]

Ody

You might like to look at the site linked below. It suggests that a 2018 Tesla Model 3 battery degrades faster than a 2017 Kia Soul battery

It's a tool which provides information for fleet managers.

"If you’re considering adding electric vehicles to your fleet, understanding how quickly EV batteries will degrade will help you be more confident in your decision, as capacity loss will impact range, cost of ownership, and expected residual value.

Geotab can help by sharing how vehicle batteries are performing to-date. View aggregated average data for 24 vehicle makes and models using our Battery Degradation Tool. Our dataset is based on real-world battery health measured from 6,300 fleet and consumer EVs representing 1.8 million days of data."

I found it by googling battery degradation, there may be other sites available.

regards

Howard

https://www.geotab.com/fleet-management ... tion-tool/

The 2018 model 3 is obsolete now & no longer made. One needs to compare the 2021 model 3 to the Kia, the sort of stuff that Bjorn does in Norway.

Regards,

[Howard]

Ody

You might like to look at the site linked below. It suggests that a 2018 Tesla Model 3 battery degrades faster than a 2017 Kia Soul battery

It's a tool which provides information for fleet managers.

"If you’re considering adding electric vehicles to your fleet, understanding how quickly EV batteries will degrade will help you be more confident in your decision, as capacity loss will impact range, cost of ownership, and expected residual value.

Geotab can help by sharing how vehicle batteries are performing to-date. View aggregated average data for 24 vehicle makes and models using our Battery Degradation Tool. Our dataset is based on real-world battery health measured from 6,300 fleet and consumer EVs representing 1.8 million days of data."

I found it by googling battery degradation, there may be other sites available.

regards

Howard

https://www.geotab.com/fleet-management ... tion-tool/

The 2018 model 3 is obsolete now & no longer made. One needs to compare the 2021 model 3 to the Kia, the sort of stuff that Bjorn does in Norway.

Regards,

Ody

I enjoyed your statement that a 2018 Tesla is obselete.

But I wouldn’t be as harsh as that.

Please do consider owners of 2018 Teslas many of whom are probably happy with their cars. Your opinion won't do anything to help their depreciation statistics.

But what about degradation of 2020 models. Worth reading this report out this week.

“Our Tesla Model 3 Has Lost 7 Percent of Battery Capacity in 24,000 Miles”.

“Compared to 158 other Model 3s at similar mileage that are also connected to TeslaFi, our car is faring worse than 123 of them and better than 35.
We're not too surprised that we're doing worse than average, as fast charging at Tesla's Superchargers is not great for maximizing the battery's life, and we've gotten fully a third of the energy our car has used that way.”


Wouldn't you agree that battery degradation is probably as much affected by the way the car is used as by its battery capability.

regards

Howard

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3520 ... -warranty/

[Mike4]

I'm not sure you understand the problem of the short ranges achieved.

And, yes, Tesla do worry owners as they advise only charging batteries to 80% and not running below 20%. This may protect their batteries but it also means dramatically lower range.

Do you have evidence that Hyundai batteries "deteriorate rapidly". That's a bold claim. You should really give us a source for this assertion. Or is it just a theory?

regards

Howard

The deterioration of batteries taken through very low charge to very high charge is a well known problem to anyone ordinarily skilled in the art of lithium ion batteries.

Tesla restrict charge range of their batteries to give the batteries maximum life as do other folk such aware, solution to this problem and that is why Tesla have invested so much in making their network of super charges.

Kia are following the tactics of the Nissan Leaf which lead to serious battery life degradation.

What Car should be explaining this to their readers, not creating a mass of nonsense statistics.

If anyone wants to operate their batteries poorly then there should be an additional cost penalty added to the range to model the loss of the value in the most expensive part of the vehicle.

Regards,

May I ask a question please?

I take a keen interest in lithium iron phosphate battery technology although until now not as used in BEVs. My attention is slowly turning to BEVs now even though they are still widely regarded as useless in load-carrying vans. but your comment above made me sit up and take notice. I thought that BEVs used lithium iron phosphate technology rather than lithium ion. Is this wrong? I can see the attraction of lithium ion for BEVs as the energy density is so much higher but they are more dangerous to have around in large sizes AIUI.

So could you clarify please? Do BEVs have lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) technology or lithium ion? Many thanks.

A specific reason for asking is I have what I thought was LiFePO4 batteries in my boat (scavenged from a wrecked electric car), but now I'm wondering if they are actually lithium ion, which would perhaps explain why they are not behaving quite as expected for LiFePO4.

[dspp]

I'm not sure you understand the problem of the short ranges achieved.

And, yes, Tesla do worry owners as they advise only charging batteries to 80% and not running below 20%. This may protect their batteries but it also means dramatically lower range.

Do you have evidence that Hyundai batteries "deteriorate rapidly". That's a bold claim. You should really give us a source for this assertion. Or is it just a theory?

regards

Howard

The deterioration of batteries taken through very low charge to very high charge is a well known problem to anyone ordinarily skilled in the art of lithium ion batteries.

Tesla restrict charge range of their batteries to give the batteries maximum life as do other folk such aware, solution to this problem and that is why Tesla have invested so much in making their network of super charges.

Kia are following the tactics of the Nissan Leaf which lead to serious battery life degradation.

What Car should be explaining this to their readers, not creating a mass of nonsense statistics.

If anyone wants to operate their batteries poorly then there should be an additional cost penalty added to the range to model the loss of the value in the most expensive part of the vehicle.

Regards,

May I ask a question please?

I take a keen interest in lithium iron phosphate battery technology although until now not as used in BEVs. My attention is slowly turning to BEVs now even though they are still widely regarded as useless in load-carrying vans. but your comment above made me sit up and take notice. I thought that BEVs used lithium iron phosphate technology rather than lithium ion. Is this wrong? I can see the attraction of lithium ion for BEVs as the energy density is so much higher but they are more dangerous to have around in large sizes AIUI.

So could you clarify please? Do BEVs have lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) technology or lithium ion? Many thanks.

A specific reason for asking is I have what I thought was LiFePO4 batteries in my boat (scavenged from a wrecked electric car), but now I'm wondering if they are actually lithium ion, which would perhaps explain why they are not behaving quite as expected for LiFePO4.

Mike4,
You will find several different chemistries in use by the different manufacturers. Indeed some manufacturers will use different chemistries in the same model but produced in different factories. So you may have to give us the details of the donor car before we could think about it.
regards,
dspp

[Mike4]

Mike4,
You will find several different chemistries in use by the different manufacturers. Indeed some manufacturers will use different chemistries in the same model but produced in different factories. So you may have to give us the details of the donor car before we could think about it.
regards,
dspp

Oh interesting! I don't actually remember the make despite seeing the car. It was an imported car, a people carrier of some sort but a brand I'd never heard of and cannot recall. Chinese or Japanese or Taiwanese I think.

Interesting story, it had actually been vandalised with a pick axe - every body panel holed, every piece of glass smashed. Owner told me the vandalising was some sort of political revenge statement, and he was very sanguine about it. His insurance paid out. His line of business was related, he was converting UK classic cars into BEVs.

[dealtn]

I am sorry to be harsh, but this kind of stuff is obvious to anyone with a scientific or engineering back ground and its distressing that after all your time on this board and all the posts I and others have put up, that you have not understood these basic things.

Unfortunately the market for the products of these competing companies isn't limited to the "anyone with a scientific or engineering back ground (sic)" though, is it?

The consumer market encompasses a wide spectrum of consumers, many of whom will look at (and no doubt be mislead too) by figures such as range, cost per mile etc. in normal (UK) conditions.

If Tesla, or others, were looking to grow the number of cars they sell (not supply) it might be in their interest to invest in ways to achieve higher rankings in surveys such as the WhatCar one though. Perhaps as an alternative to claiming to deliver the best range in the niche potential market of the coldest place in Norway.

[odysseus2000]

May I ask a question please?

I take a keen interest in lithium iron phosphate battery technology although until now not as used in BEVs. My attention is slowly turning to BEVs now even though they are still widely regarded as useless in load-carrying vans. but your comment above made me sit up and take notice. I thought that BEVs used lithium iron phosphate technology rather than lithium ion. Is this wrong? I can see the attraction of lithium ion for BEVs as the energy density is so much higher but they are more dangerous to have around in large sizes AIUI.

So could you clarify please? Do BEVs have lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) technology or lithium ion? Many thanks.

A specific reason for asking is I have what I thought was LiFePO4 batteries in my boat (scavenged from a wrecked electric car), but now I'm wondering if they are actually lithium ion, which would perhaps explain why they are not behaving quite as expected for LiFePO4.

dspp is correct and to be sure one needs specifics.

If you can get to the cell level then they may be marked on the plastic jacket.

LiFePO have a nominal voltage of 3.2 volts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_i ... te_battery

The parameters of LIFEPO are:
Cell voltage
Minimum discharge voltage = 2.5 V[27]
Working voltage = 3.0 ~ 3.2 V
Maximum charge voltage = 3.65 V[28]
Volumetric energy density = 220 Wh/L (790 kJ/L)

By contrast traditional li-ion batteries have a nominal voltage of 3.7 volts, but with some variation and a range of about 3 ish to 4.2 volts, (one should consult the manufacturers specs):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

volumetric energy density is 250 -693 Wh/L

Since the energy density of li-ion is larger they have been predominantly used in most applications, but as various other efficiencies have been introduced there is more interest in LIFEPO and one of the Chinse variant TESLA model 3 use this technology.

Interms of safety then LIFEPO are much less likely to lead to fires than Li-ion.

For Li-ion in automotive applications it is normal to fuse every cell so that if one cell fails by going short circuit, the other cells in parallel with it are prevented from dumping all of their power into that one cell and leading to a bad situation. In all of the consumer goods I have taken apart there have been no fuses and you will find all manner of videos of folk building power walls using re-cycled cells with out cell level fuses. I personally would not do that and I would also not put any recycled or new power wall in a dwelling or in a flammable box.

There are also some stories of what are colloquially called "heater cells" These are cells that have an internal short and get hot but not an external short so that the fuses do not blow.

This video shows hunting for heaters with a thermal camera:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNCkoth__30

This video shows the results of a diy battery fire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnJZBbDDVH8&t=75s

Lithium batteries are an amazing invention but they need to be respected and treated appropriately. I personally would be nervous about having even a new li-ion battery pack on a boat, but many do and I have several lithium ion tools, laptops and power packs in my house and they are also extensively used in aircraft and as boeing found out if not used appropriately can lead to smoke and fires. For any re-purposed cells I would want to know what they are, so as to operate them within their design specifications.

Regards,

[odysseus2000]

Wouldn't you agree that battery degradation is probably as much affected by the way the car is used as by its battery capability.

regards

Howard

Yes

[Mike4]

May I ask a question please?

I take a keen interest in lithium iron phosphate battery technology although until now not as used in BEVs. My attention is slowly turning to BEVs now even though they are still widely regarded as useless in load-carrying vans. but your comment above made me sit up and take notice. I thought that BEVs used lithium iron phosphate technology rather than lithium ion. Is this wrong? I can see the attraction of lithium ion for BEVs as the energy density is so much higher but they are more dangerous to have around in large sizes AIUI.

So could you clarify please? Do BEVs have lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) technology or lithium ion? Many thanks.

A specific reason for asking is I have what I thought was LiFePO4 batteries in my boat (scavenged from a wrecked electric car), but now I'm wondering if they are actually lithium ion, which would perhaps explain why they are not behaving quite as expected for LiFePO4.

dspp is correct and to be sure one needs specifics.

If you can get to the cell level then they may be marked on the plastic jacket.

LiFePO have a nominal voltage of 3.2 volts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_i ... te_battery

The parameters of LIFEPO are:
Cell voltage
Minimum discharge voltage = 2.5 V[27]
Working voltage = 3.0 ~ 3.2 V
Maximum charge voltage = 3.65 V[28]
Volumetric energy density = 220 Wh/L (790 kJ/L)

By contrast traditional li-ion batteries have a nominal voltage of 3.7 volts, but with some variation and a range of about 3 ish to 4.2 volts, (one should consult the manufacturers specs):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

volumetric energy density is 250 -693 Wh/L

Since the energy density of li-ion is larger they have been predominantly used in most applications, but as various other efficiencies have been introduced there is more interest in LIFEPO and one of the Chinse variant TESLA model 3 use this technology.

Interms of safety then LIFEPO are much less likely to lead to fires than Li-ion.

For Li-ion in automotive applications it is normal to fuse every cell so that if one cell fails by going short circuit, the other cells in parallel with it are prevented from dumping all of their power into that one cell and leading to a bad situation. In all of the consumer goods I have taken apart there have been no fuses and you will find all manner of videos of folk building power walls using re-cycled cells with out cell level fuses. I personally would not do that and I would also not put any recycled or new power wall in a dwelling or in a flammable box.

There are also some stories of what are colloquially called "heater cells" These are cells that have an internal short and get hot but not an external short so that the fuses do not blow.

This video shows hunting for heaters with a thermal camera:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNCkoth__30

This video shows the results of a diy battery fire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnJZBbDDVH8&t=75s

Lithium batteries are an amazing invention but they need to be respected and treated appropriately. I personally would be nervous about having even a new li-ion battery pack on a boat, but many do and I have several lithium ion tools, laptops and power packs in my house and they are also extensively used in aircraft and as boeing found out if not used appropriately can lead to smoke and fires. For any re-purposed cells I would want to know what they are, so as to operate them within their design specifications.

Regards,

Ok thanks. Based on what you've said about lithium ions, I definitely have LiFePO4 cells in the boat after all.

And I agree, had they been lithium ions they would have been coming out again.

Edit to add: But I see you use the term LIFEPO. Is this the same as lithium iron phosphate or another chemistry used in BEVs which I've not yet encountered?