Musk endeavours

[Howard]

I'm not very knowledgeable about autonomous driving, but this report caught my eye. Looks like an interesting trial.

https://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2019/08/ups-h ... -one-knew/

regards

Howard

[dspp]

1. My sales colleagues are very keen to sift out what they term "statements of insincere objections" early on in the sales process. I think you and I might term these people time-wasters. As far as I am concerned if you want a Tesla test drive for a bit of fun then find a friend with a Tesla. If you want to order a car then click to buy. For Tesla the problem at present is supply, not demand, so you have to decide whether you fish or cut bait. My colleagues who have bought S's had no problems getting a test drive, but they were sincere buyers.

2. One of my sales colleagues is still window shopping. They are well aware that waiting has fewer downsides than buying a new dino-juice car at this particular moment. So they will wait until they are sure. Meanwhile that's a sales that BMW/Merc/Volvo are not getting ......

regards, dspp

dspp

Worth looking at this video. Would you call this guy's problems with Tesla "statements of insincere objections".

It seems to me that he is speaking from the heart and at the end of his tether as a major supporter. let down pretty well every time he engaged with Tesla's sales operation. Watching this reminds me that those of us who have tried to road test a Tesla when we were in the market for a new car are fairly pleased we weren't foolish enough to pay for one without insisting on trying it first.

regards

Howard

Elektrek cover this as "Tesla loses major $5 million Model 3 order from rental company over service and quality issues".

https://electrek.co/2019/08/16/tesla-lo ... ty-issues/

but you have to watch the video on YouTube; It's subtitled from German

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boWp5Jq ... r_embedded

To me this looks like a combination of things, and some that we probably are not being told. The uber-cynic in me might even go so far as to term this "high pressure buying tactics", and as it happens I have dealt with some similar customers myself in the past. Yes they can be a brand's greatest allies, but it is always on a contingent transactional basis. So whilst I want Tesla to address the underlying issues (and indeed there seem to be some worth getting stuck into), it should only be on Tesla's terms. So yes in this instance the logical Tesla response was to cancel the remaining order (85 x Tesla model 3) and rebase the negotiation. I would have done the same thing myself if I had been sitting in the Tesla chair. And likely I would have gone public with a video if I had been sitting in the nextmove chair. Business can be bruising sometimes.

You can find some interesting reporting, Tesla riposte, and various commentary etc on this at https://electrek.co/2019/08/16/tesla-lo ... ty-issues/ .

regards, dspp

[Howard]

1. My sales colleagues are very keen to sift out what they term "statements of insincere objections" early on in the sales process. I think you and I might term these people time-wasters. As far as I am concerned if you want a Tesla test drive for a bit of fun then find a friend with a Tesla. If you want to order a car then click to buy. For Tesla the problem at present is supply, not demand, so you have to decide whether you fish or cut bait. My colleagues who have bought S's had no problems getting a test drive, but they were sincere buyers.

2. One of my sales colleagues is still window shopping. They are well aware that waiting has fewer downsides than buying a new dino-juice car at this particular moment. So they will wait until they are sure. Meanwhile that's a sales that BMW/Merc/Volvo are not getting ......

regards, dspp

dspp

Worth looking at this video. Would you call this guy's problems with Tesla "statements of insincere objections".

It seems to me that he is speaking from the heart and at the end of his tether as a major supporter. let down pretty well every time he engaged with Tesla's sales operation. Watching this reminds me that those of us who have tried to road test a Tesla when we were in the market for a new car are fairly pleased we weren't foolish enough to pay for one without insisting on trying it first.

regards

Howard

Elektrek cover this as "Tesla loses major $5 million Model 3 order from rental company over service and quality issues".

https://electrek.co/2019/08/16/tesla-lo ... ty-issues/

but you have to watch the video on YouTube; It's subtitled from German

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boWp5Jq ... r_embedded

To me this looks like a combination of things, and some that we probably are not being told. The uber-cynic in me might even go so far as to term this "high pressure buying tactics", and as it happens I have dealt with some similar customers myself in the past. Yes they can be a brand's greatest allies, but it is always on a contingent transactional basis. So whilst I want Tesla to address the underlying issues (and indeed there seem to be some worth getting stuck into), it should only be on Tesla's terms. So yes in this instance the logical Tesla response was to cancel the remaining order (85 x Tesla model 3) and rebase the negotiation. I would have done the same thing myself if I had been sitting in the Tesla chair. And likely I would have gone public with a video if I had been sitting in the nextmove chair. Business can be bruising sometimes.

You can find some interesting reporting, Tesla riposte, and various commentary etc on this at https://electrek.co/2019/08/16/tesla-lo ... ty-issues/ .

regards, dspp

I'm not sure why you are playing back the Elektrek link I quoted in my post. But if you look at the comment by Andreas Thaler he sums up the video pretty well.


He says: "Allow me to summarize:

Nextmove has received lots of Tesla cars with defects among the 80+ cars they have bought from Tesla.
(They have 370 electric cars from different manufacturers overall)
Those defects cause them to lose money from having already paid for the car but not being able to give it to the rental customer.
This never happens with other manufacturers of electric cars, where the dealers have an incentive to resolve problems.
Currently they have 15 open delivery defects on cars where they are still waiting for Tesla to provide a solution, without update.
Teslas answer in such cases typically is "Take it of leave it", and once the car is taken over no solution happens.
They discussed with German Tesla top management a solution, which would be a revised process where they take over the car, test it, and if there are defects, they set a deadline until which these get resolved.
Shortly after agreeing this revised delivery schedule with Tesla, Tesla came back and said they don't want to follow the agreed schedule, and as the cars were ordered under the old schedule, Tesla canceled the open order for 85 cars.
They also said they ordered vehicles from Tesla, received the VIN number with confirmation it was a new car, and shortly before delivery received a different VIN number. When registering the car, they found out the car had already been registered and was thus no longer available for the EV bonus payment from the government. Also, Tesla could not provide them with an invoice for tax purposes. Alternative: cancel the order."

The Uber cynic in me suggests that this is just the tip of the iceberg for Tesla. They may be running out of "punters" who will take substandard cars or substandard service. Yes, a perfect Model 3 is a nice car. But the extra beta grade electronics and poor finish on a high percentage of their cars is going to tarnish their reputation. And discriminating motorists won't be happy.

Ironically, the missing part of the Tesla offer, is a competent chain of Main Dealers!

If they had dealers handling the supply of cars to customers in Europe they would probably save money on repairing Teslas and build a good reputation for service. Dealers would be feeding back valuable information on how to build quality into the cars. A lot of paint defects could probably be quickly fixed and minor software issues sorted by dealers who know how to do this much better than Tesla.

The Uber cynic might suggest that Tesla's sales force are frightened to feed back the problems to Head Office as they are likely to be the messengers fired for communicating anything but praise for the brand. For example, someone really has to tell Elon Musk that Autonomous Driving is a joke on European roads.

Yes, companies like Amazon are crucifying retail shops, but if one has a problem with a car one really needs a responsive local physical dealer to drive it to.

Anyway we cynics will be watching the share price. The market will weigh Tesla's competence and ultimately deliver its verdict.

regards

Howard

[dspp]

dspp

Worth looking at this video. Would you call this guy's problems with Tesla "statements of insincere objections".

To me this looks like a combination of things, and some that we probably are not being told. The uber-cynic in me might even go so far as to term this "high pressure buying tactics", and as it happens I have dealt with some similar customers myself in the past. Yes they can be a brand's greatest allies, but it is always on a contingent transactional basis. So whilst I want Tesla to address the underlying issues (and indeed there seem to be some worth getting stuck into), it should only be on Tesla's terms. So yes in this instance the logical Tesla response was to cancel the remaining order (85 x Tesla model 3) and rebase the negotiation. I would have done the same thing myself if I had been sitting in the Tesla chair. And likely I would have gone public with a video if I had been sitting in the nextmove chair. Business can be bruising sometimes.

You can find some interesting reporting, Tesla riposte, and various commentary etc on this at https://electrek.co/2019/08/16/tesla-lo ... ty-issues/ .

regards, dspp

I'm not sure why you are playing back the Elektrek link I quoted in my post. But if you look at the comment by Andreas Thaler he sums up the video pretty well.


He says: "Allow me to summarize:

Alternative: cancel the order."

Anyway we cynics will be watching the share price. The market will weigh Tesla's competence and ultimately deliver its verdict.

regards

Howard

It is notable that it was Tesla that cancelled the order. That tells me where is the power in this relationship.

nextmove, like all rental companies, make a significant fraction of their revenue by buying cheap using a volume discount. They put a few miles on the clock and resell dear to buyers who cannot get a volume discount. They are very needy and demanding clients, who have negotiated a discount.

It seems that they are being too needy. Tesla will shift these cars through another channel. Tesla don't want quite such a needy customer. nextmove's only response is to go public in a baby pram toy moment.

- dspp

[Howard]

To me this looks like a combination of things, and some that we probably are not being told. The uber-cynic in me might even go so far as to term this "high pressure buying tactics", and as it happens I have dealt with some similar customers myself in the past. Yes they can be a brand's greatest allies, but it is always on a contingent transactional basis. So whilst I want Tesla to address the underlying issues (and indeed there seem to be some worth getting stuck into), it should only be on Tesla's terms. So yes in this instance the logical Tesla response was to cancel the remaining order (85 x Tesla model 3) and rebase the negotiation. I would have done the same thing myself if I had been sitting in the Tesla chair. And likely I would have gone public with a video if I had been sitting in the nextmove chair. Business can be bruising sometimes.

You can find some interesting reporting, Tesla riposte, and various commentary etc on this at https://electrek.co/2019/08/16/tesla-lo ... ty-issues/ .

regards, dspp

I'm not sure why you are playing back the Elektrek link I quoted in my post. But if you look at the comment by Andreas Thaler he sums up the video pretty well.


He says: "Allow me to summarize:

Alternative: cancel the order."

Anyway we cynics will be watching the share price. The market will weigh Tesla's competence and ultimately deliver its verdict.

regards

Howard

It is notable that it was Tesla that cancelled the order. That tells me where is the power in this relationship.

nextmove, like all rental companies, make a significant fraction of their revenue by buying cheap using a volume discount. They put a few miles on the clock and resell dear to buyers who cannot get a volume discount. They are very needy and demanding clients, who have negotiated a discount.

It seems that they are being too needy. Tesla will shift these cars through another channel. Tesla don't want quite such a needy customer. nextmove's only response is to go public in a baby pram toy moment.

- dspp

Tesla sold less than 500 cars in Germany and their biggest European market, Norway, in July and sales in other European countries are falling away so, yes by shifting cancelled orders they may be matching demand and supply, but not in the optimum manner.

regarda

Howard

[odysseus2000]

Tesla sold less than 500 cars in Germany and their biggest European market, Norway, in July and sales in other European countries are falling away so, yes by shifting cancelled orders they may be matching demand and supply, but not in the optimum manner.

regarda

Howard

Nextmove have certainly put out a good video which at my first pass I was not happy with Tesla which may be the aim of the video.

Maybe it's all about margin with Tesla having higher margins selling to someone else.

I would guess nextmove have many sore customers who have paid nextmove for a car & now nextmove have no cars, so their video is about face saving for their punter base.

Clearly if what nextmove say about selling second hand cars is true, then Tesla have been naughty, but we don't have Tesla's take nor do we know what nextmove were paying.

Perhaps by Tesla having cancelled they believe they can sell at higher margins elsewhere & in the meantime nextmoves punters if they still want a Tesla are going else where.

It may even be that nextmove were paid to make the video tarnishing Tesla by one of the other manufacturers.

The more I think about the nextmove video the more it becomes suspect. If as they assert Tesla has the best cars then their punters will want one, going out with this video probably means nextmove will not get anymore cars & nextmove are saving their face & defending why they haven't got Tesla to sell.

Nextmove look like they are used to dealing with a dealer network & having the dealer deal with all aspects of the cars & are not able to operate in the Tesla model with no dealer network.

Having reflected on this video & dspp comments especially that Tesla had cancelled the order has changed how I view this entirely & I now believe Tesla have acted in a sensible way & that nextmove have shot themselves in the foot.

Regards,

[redsturgeon]

I'm not sure how you can defend Tesla in the Nextmove scenario. Here is a customer wanting cars delivered to them with no faults or any faults found to be rectified in a timely manner...whatever will they demand next? Is this too much to ask?

It is all very well having an excellent product when everything is working properly but if you can't deliver said product defect free more than 25% of the time then you are not going to corner the market. Add to this the long delays in accident repair and it will stop many potential customers ordering.

John

[BobbyD]

I'm not sure how you can defend Tesla in the Nextmove scenario. Here is a customer wanting cars delivered to them with no faults or any faults found to be rectified in a timely manner...whatever will they demand next? Is this too much to ask?

It is all very well having an excellent product when everything is working properly but if you can't deliver said product defect free more than 25% of the time then you are not going to corner the market. Add to this the long delays in accident repair and it will stop many potential customers ordering.

John

The polite explanation is denial.

[odysseus2000]

I'm not sure how you can defend Tesla in the Nextmove scenario. Here is a customer wanting cars delivered to them with no faults or any faults found to be rectified in a timely manner...whatever will they demand next? Is this too much to ask?

It is all very well having an excellent product when everything is working properly but if you can't deliver said product defect free more than 25% of the time then you are not going to corner the market. Add to this the long delays in accident repair and it will stop many potential customers ordering.

John

The more I think of the Nextmove video, the more strange it seems.

If you have a bad experience in business, you change supplier and carry on.

Going to the lengths that Nextmove have to trash Tesla while at the same time saying how great their cars are does not ring true to me.

Regards,

[dspp]

I'm not sure how you can defend Tesla in the Nextmove scenario. Here is a customer wanting cars delivered to them with no faults or any faults found to be rectified in a timely manner...whatever will they demand next? Is this too much to ask?

It is all very well having an excellent product when everything is working properly but if you can't deliver said product defect free more than 25% of the time then you are not going to corner the market. Add to this the long delays in accident repair and it will stop many potential customers ordering.

John

The polite explanation is denial.

In my own realworld experience as an MD I have had similar issues on two occasions, with similar volume orders for kit of about the same $$, where we were the manufacturer. On both occasions the client became very demanding. Yes there were issues with our product, which I most definitely wanted the design & mfg team to get after. But equally at that particular moment it was right for us to regret those clients rather than get wrapped up in knots. I am sure the folks in Tesla are making a similar judgement call, and will be similarly putting the boot in internally to learn the appropriate lessons. However there is also something a tad odd about the video and so I think there are aspects of this story that we do not know, and they probably are not in nextmove's interests for us to know.

Don't get me wrong, this is by no means a perfect situation, and there is plenty of dirty washing on display. However as a shareholder I leave Tesla management to make the judgement calls, learn the lessons, make improvements, and progress.

regards, dspp

[odysseus2000]

Interesting video on uk chargers, Jag ipace & price equality of ice & BEV:

https://youtu.be/7llBHh1qmNY

Regards,

[redsturgeon]

I'm not sure how you can defend Tesla in the Nextmove scenario. Here is a customer wanting cars delivered to them with no faults or any faults found to be rectified in a timely manner...whatever will they demand next? Is this too much to ask?

It is all very well having an excellent product when everything is working properly but if you can't deliver said product defect free more than 25% of the time then you are not going to corner the market. Add to this the long delays in accident repair and it will stop many potential customers ordering.

John

The more I think of the Nextmove video, the more strange it seems.

If you have a bad experience in business, you change supplier and carry on.

Going to the lengths that Nextmove have to trash Tesla while at the same time saying how great their cars are does not ring true to me.

Regards,

All makes perfect sense to me.

He can't change supplier really can he...he has said that the Tesla is easily the best car. What competitor is there at the moment...none. What I see is just major frustration on his part that he can't get the product that he and his customers want without defects.

Nothing strange, no conspiracy.

My worry is that your faith in Tesla learning from this and improving is misplaced.

John

[BobbyD]

Don't get me wrong, this is by no means a perfect situation, and there is plenty of dirty washing on display. However as a shareholder I leave Tesla management to make the judgement calls, learn the lessons, make improvements, and progress.

regards, dspp

If that's how they treat a company ordering in the three figures, imagine how badly ignored an individual punter gets treated.

There's more than dirty washing on display. Tesla have significant QC issues, and are rushing in to territories where they have no support network. It's a recipe for disaster. Even in Germany where they are comparatively well set up service centre wise this happens.

I'd love to know what you think nextmove are hiding from public scrutiny which makes them look bad...

Cutting the order might well have been the rational thing for Tesla to do, but if the rational response to a volume customer asking for you to guarantee that a small fraction of the cars you deliver them are fault free is to cut the order then your company has problems.

[BobbyD]

He can't change supplier really can he...he has said that the Tesla is easily the best car.

...if it wasn't built by Tesla, the same caveat Munro used about M3 profitability.

They can rent the Teslas they already have.

- https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-tesla ... KKCN1V61DJ

This is interesting:

The rental company said following a dispute over how to resolve the quality shortcomings, Tesla triggered a refund clause but Tesla disputes that it cancelled the order.

Tesla said Nextmove chose not to take delivery of the cars.

- https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-tesla ... KKCN1V61DJ

[dspp]

Don't get me wrong, this is by no means a perfect situation, and there is plenty of dirty washing on display. However as a shareholder I leave Tesla management to make the judgement calls, learn the lessons, make improvements, and progress.

regards, dspp

If that's how they treat a company ordering in the three figures, imagine how badly ignored an individual punter gets treated..

An individual consumer has legal protections a mass trade customer does not.

That is the key issue here if one takes the legal scalpel to it.

regards, dspp

[BobbyD]

Don't get me wrong, this is by no means a perfect situation, and there is plenty of dirty washing on display. However as a shareholder I leave Tesla management to make the judgement calls, learn the lessons, make improvements, and progress.

regards, dspp

If that's how they treat a company ordering in the three figures, imagine how badly ignored an individual punter gets treated..

An individual consumer has legal protections a mass trade customer does not.

That is the key issue here if one takes the legal scalpel to it.

regards, dspp

That's fine in theory, but enforcing your legal protections with a non-responding party is immensely time consuming and could involve significant financial outlay if you have to resort to the courts. I've just spent 10 months pursuing a section 75 refund for a mobile phone. My rights were perfectly clear, but the retailer was completely unresponsive and the claims process was incredibly slow and more than hinted that it was designed to discourage you making it to completion. I won't be returning to the manufacturer, the retailer or the credit card provider for significant purchases again. This is not an uncommon sentiment amongst Tesla owners with faulty cars who Tesla is ignoring, even amongst those who profess to love the car.

[dspp]

If that's how they treat a company ordering in the three figures, imagine how badly ignored an individual punter gets treated..

An individual consumer has legal protections a mass trade customer does not.

That is the key issue here if one takes the legal scalpel to it.

regards, dspp

That's fine in theory, but enforcing your legal protections with a non-responding party is immensely time consuming and could involve significant financial outlay if you have to resort to the courts. I've just spent 10 months pursuing a section 75 refund for a mobile phone. My rights were perfectly clear, but the retailer was completely unresponsive and the claims process was incredibly slow and more than hinted that it was designed to discourage you making it to completion. I won't be returning to the manufacturer, the retailer or the credit card provider for significant purchases again. This is not an uncommon sentiment amongst Tesla owners with faulty cars who Tesla is ignoring, even amongst those who profess to love the car.

To be fair BD that's equally true for both parties. As a seller there are some customers you really don't want. Ordinarily you only realise this after the event, but occasionally you realise this early enough to take avoiding action and decline the sale. That is so whether it is a meal in a restaurant, a holiday cottage, or a car. They will make the whole experience uneconomic for the seller and consume a lot of company time & resources. It seems Tesla has concluded that nextmove are in that category at this moment. Whether that was a good judgement call remains to be seen.

regards, dspp

[BobbyD]

To be fair BD that's equally true for both parties. As a seller there are some customers you really don't want. Ordinarily you only realise this after the event, but occasionally you realise this early enough to take avoiding action and decline the sale. That is so whether it is a meal in a restaurant, a holiday cottage, or a car. They will make the whole experience uneconomic for the seller and consume a lot of company time & resources. It seems Tesla has concluded that nextmove are in that category at this moment. Whether that was a good judgement call remains to be seen.

regards, dspp

TBF dspp, every customer makes the whole experience uneconomic for Tesla... hence the losses.

Nextmove are an evangelical BEV company which covers shortcomings in Tesla's own sales strategy and pay for the privilege. If driving a Tesla is the road to Damascus event we keep being told it is, it is difficult to see how supplying a company which rents them out by the day could ever be unprofitable for Tesla. I've also yet to see them dispute any of nextmove's specific allegations regarding the quality of cars being delivered or repair problems.

...and this isn't an isolated case, far from it.

Have you seen the Finnish paint videos? https://insideevs.com/news/363703/more- ... -problems/

https://insideevs.com/news/363703/more- ... -problems/

[dspp]

To be fair BD that's equally true for both parties. As a seller there are some customers you really don't want. Ordinarily you only realise this after the event, but occasionally you realise this early enough to take avoiding action and decline the sale. That is so whether it is a meal in a restaurant, a holiday cottage, or a car. They will make the whole experience uneconomic for the seller and consume a lot of company time & resources. It seems Tesla has concluded that nextmove are in that category at this moment. Whether that was a good judgement call remains to be seen.

regards, dspp

TBF dspp, every customer makes the whole experience uneconomic for Tesla... hence the losses.

Nextmove are an evangelical BEV company which covers shortcomings in Tesla's own sales strategy and pay for the privilege. If driving a Tesla is the road to Damascus event we keep being told it is, it is difficult to see how supplying a company which rents them out by the day could ever be unprofitable for Tesla. I've also yet to see them dispute any of nextmove's specific allegations regarding the quality of cars being delivered or repair problems.

...and this isn't an isolated case, far from it.

Have you seen the Finnish paint videos? https://insideevs.com/news/363703/more- ... -problems/

https://insideevs.com/news/363703/more- ... -problems/

Yes, hence my interest in what can be done at the Fremont paint shop. This (Tesla) is one of my two riskiest investments. And on a risk/reward basis I would say it is the weakest of the two. (mind you that is now that Kier and Carillion have been eliminated .........)

What I think is going on is that nextmove are using social media to try and get Musk to overule the German senior/sales manage team. It will be interesting to see if that happens, and I hope it does not as it seems to me that the German managent team have made the right judgement call on this case at this time.

regards, dspp

[redsturgeon]

So just to make sure I understand your point here dspp.

You are happy being invested with a company who feel it is OK to turn down an order for 85 cars on the basis that the customer (who is possibly your biggest single customer in Germany perhaps Europe) is insisting on a process that allows them to identify quality issues pre-delivery and payment so they can be rectified?

If this is correct does this sound to you like a company who seems to lack the will to improve and is chasing short term cash at the expense investments in process improvement in order to make more profit in the future?

John