Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to eyeball08,Wondergirly,bofh,johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva, for Donating to support the site

Musk endeavours

The Big Picture Place
GoSeigen
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4406
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:14 pm
Has thanked: 1603 times
Been thanked: 1593 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#179443

Postby GoSeigen » November 11th, 2018, 9:41 am

onthemove wrote:If the other manufacturers can demonstrate substantially better safety and better reliability with their lidar (or other additional sensor fusion), etc, then I suspect - hope even - that the regulators will look to make those kinds of systems the model for regulations.

And that could really throw a spanner in the works to other efforts that have tried to cut corners, do things on the cheap, skimp on sensor inputs, etc.

Sorry .... I'll stop now... :)


onthemove,

Nice to read a sensible, informed piece. Thanks.

I think another obvious candidate to do this work is commercial and military aircraft manufacturers. They have been developing safety-critical systems for autopilot, drones etc. for years. Maybe Waymo/Tesla et al have already picked up developers from their teams -- but I'd not be surprised if they are at least partially reinventing the wheel...


GS

PeterGray
Lemon Slice
Posts: 848
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 785 times
Been thanked: 343 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#179445

Postby PeterGray » November 11th, 2018, 9:45 am

onthemove wrote:All in all, I would say there is already enough research out there to be confident that you could in theory achieve a self driving vehicle using only 1 single camera.


Interesting stuff,

But unless it's a 360 camera then no. That may work for simple look ahead, but when we drive (at least when I drive!) I'm always looking in the mirror, looking to the sides, sometimes even up.

It's certainly interesting to know what can be achieved for a simple forward view with a simple camera, and that approach may well prove valuable, as far as it goes, but it's going to need more than that. And then there's driving in bad vis to consider... Tech like Lidar opens up lots of additional help, distance precision a single camera system can't match. I can see no reason not to include that sort of tech (as well). If you are trying to build autonomous cars it's got to be the best possible.

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#179458

Postby BobbyD » November 11th, 2018, 11:35 am

Lyft and Aptiv have completed 5,000 paid trips in their self-driving taxis

The two companies have been operating robot taxis in Las Vegas since CES in January


- https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/21/1771 ... 5000-trips

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6431
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1561 times
Been thanked: 973 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#179550

Postby odysseus2000 » November 11th, 2018, 7:50 pm

BobbyD wrote:Ah, the thing I actually meant to post...

I'm not stumping up $3800 for Navigant's Automated driving Leaderboard https://www.navigantresearch.com/report ... g-vehicles

But the results graph for a recent copy is shown in the last figure in this article: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/car ... 800037002/

19 companies ranked, have a think about your running order before taking a peek.

This is how it looked a year ago: http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-compa ... rst-2017-4


These are pooularist eye candy articles, of zero value to anyone.

If there was a series of independent tests of all the systems it would be useful, but this stuff has no use other than for the selling of clicks.

Currently no one knows what will work, what tests the authorities/insurance companies will require & a host of other stuff.

Some journalist can assemble league tables & make a few bob doing so, but they tell us nothing.

All that we know is that many companies are chasing this dream & that may mean robotic driving will be developed by several at more or less the same time or that all will fail & AD won't happen at least in the short term.

If ad does happen the people who have the cheapest system that satisfies the authorities & the ability to get it into cars quickly will be big winners.

Regards,

Regards,

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6431
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1561 times
Been thanked: 973 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#179700

Postby odysseus2000 » November 12th, 2018, 1:05 pm

Ron Barron a Tesla bull, talks about Tesla:

https://mobile.twitter.com/0_ody/status ... 6291730433

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#179710

Postby BobbyD » November 12th, 2018, 1:55 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
BobbyD wrote:Ah, the thing I actually meant to post...

I'm not stumping up $3800 for Navigant's Automated driving Leaderboard https://www.navigantresearch.com/report ... g-vehicles

But the results graph for a recent copy is shown in the last figure in this article: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/car ... 800037002/

19 companies ranked, have a think about your running order before taking a peek.

This is how it looked a year ago: http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-compa ... rst-2017-4


These are pooularist eye candy articles, of zero value to anyone.

If there was a series of independent tests of all the systems it would be useful, but this stuff has no use other than for the selling of clicks.

Currently no one knows what will work, what tests the authorities/insurance companies will require & a host of other stuff.

Some journalist can assemble league tables & make a few bob doing so, but they tell us nothing.

All that we know is that many companies are chasing this dream & that may mean robotic driving will be developed by several at more or less the same time or that all will fail & AD won't happen at least in the short term.

If ad does happen the people who have the cheapest system that satisfies the authorities & the ability to get it into cars quickly will be big winners.

Regards,

Regards,


The list wasn't compiled by a journalist...

odysseus2000 wrote:Ron Barron a Tesla bull, talks about Tesla:

https://mobile.twitter.com/0_ody/status ... 6291730433

Regards,


Man talks up own stock...

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2192
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 886 times
Been thanked: 1020 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#179713

Postby Howard » November 12th, 2018, 2:07 pm

Ody

I know you have dismissed the current major players' efforts and believe they will crumble at the Tesla threat. However, VW are either deluded, or are going to be a major threat to Tesla globally if they achieve half of what they are planning.

FRANKFURT (REUTERS) - Volkswagen's electric vehicle platform and battery procurement plans are being readied to handle production of 50 million vehicles, Chief Executive Herbert Diess told German trade publication Automobilwoche.

The electric vehicle platform has been "booked" for 50 million cars, Diess said, adding that battery procurement had also been readied to handle this amount.

https://money.usnews.com/investing/news ... mobilwoche

The CEO of VW doesn't appear to believe that getting the right quality of batteries will be a problem.

I'm guessing that VW will be aiming to supply a family's second car initially where EV vehicles are ideal and a range of, say 250 miles is not an issue.

If Mercedes and BMW are intending to compete on this scale, can acquire the battery production, and a couple of big players in China join in, the EV market will soon be saturated! They'll be giving cars away!!

Tesla are going to have to work on their reliability to be able to sell at a premium and compete with the big players.

regards

Howard

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6431
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1561 times
Been thanked: 973 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#179741

Postby odysseus2000 » November 12th, 2018, 3:05 pm

Howard wrote:Ody

I know you have dismissed the current major players' efforts and believe they will crumble at the Tesla threat. However, VW are either deluded, or are going to be a major threat to Tesla globally if they achieve half of what they are planning.

FRANKFURT (REUTERS) - Volkswagen's electric vehicle platform and battery procurement plans are being readied to handle production of 50 million vehicles, Chief Executive Herbert Diess told German trade publication Automobilwoche.

The electric vehicle platform has been "booked" for 50 million cars, Diess said, adding that battery procurement had also been readied to handle this amount.

https://money.usnews.com/investing/news ... mobilwoche

The CEO of VW doesn't appear to believe that getting the right quality of batteries will be a problem.

I'm guessing that VW will be aiming to supply a family's second car initially where EV vehicles are ideal and a range of, say 250 miles is not an issue.

If Mercedes and BMW are intending to compete on this scale, can acquire the battery production, and a couple of big players in China join in, the EV market will soon be saturated! They'll be giving cars away!!

Tesla are going to have to work on their reliability to be able to sell at a premium and compete with the big players.

regards

Howard


50 million cars when?

The world market is about 75 million cars per year, so VW can not be talking about per year, so over what time scale?

If as stated in the article they have bought batteries for 50 million cars then the question are from whom and over what delivery scale?

It looks to me like VW are either using a lot of rhetoric or they have spent a lot of money and are likely following the trajectory of UK GE who went wild on the internet and then bust.

As things are VW have a shed load of leased cars that are going to come back and be unsellable and at the same time no proven electrical sales.

Imho if VW are doing all the things the CEO says they will get themselves into very series financial trouble very quickly. Things are set up for a perfect storm for VW. Losing sales, leased vehicles having to be almost given away and meanwhile massive capex on unproved stuff that might not sell as punter will have lots of choice. If e.g. they bring out a model that turns out to be very poor and doesn't sell that might be the event that breaks them.

One can use the argument that the CEO of VW must be a competent chap, but we know that CEO are capable of being stupid: Fred the Shred of the 2008 banking fame being a classic example.

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#179747

Postby BobbyD » November 12th, 2018, 3:19 pm

Howard wrote:If Mercedes and BMW are intending to compete on this scale, can acquire the battery production, and a couple of big players in China join in, the EV market will soon be saturated! They'll be giving cars away!!


They aren't moving with the same level of commitment as VW.

In Germany, Volkswagen, BMW and Daimler appear to be adopting the same strategy, as each has earmarked billions of euros for electric technology and pledged that up to a quarter of their fleets will be electric by 2025. But the roads they are taking are actually quite distinct...

...While VW is focusing on “bespoke architecture” to create electric cars, the Munich-based luxury carmaker [BMW] touts the merits of “flexible architecture” that can accommodate conventional, hybrid or electric engines. BMW’s plan is to enable customers from 2021 to order any BMW and specify what sort of engine they want.

“We can’t afford having two factories standing still,” says chief executive Harald Krueger. “With a flexible approach you can always manage the capacity of your plants. But if you have a specific EV architecture, what do you with the old one? What do you do with the people?”

Daimler, which is spending €10bn to launch more than 10 electric models by 2022, is taking a third approach: Like VW, the Mercedes parent is designing purpose-built architecture for its EQ marque of electric cars. However, like BMW, its production plants are being set up to accommodate all types of powertrains, including hydrogen fuel cell cars.




- https://www.ft.com/content/2b7f665e-84f ... a4754b5a0e "Electric switch poses existential challenge to carmakers" via https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ft+vw ... e&ie=UTF-8

VW are betting the factory on electric, the others are keeping their options open.

dspp
Lemon Half
Posts: 5884
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 5825 times
Been thanked: 2127 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#179751

Postby dspp » November 12th, 2018, 3:27 pm

The IEA Global EV Outlook 2018 report can be downloaded

https://www.iea.org/gevo2018/

You may find it worth reading through. Personally it was a strange mixture of optimistic, pessimistic, and sane. Typical of works by a cte I guess.

regards, dspp

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2192
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 886 times
Been thanked: 1020 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#179781

Postby Howard » November 12th, 2018, 5:34 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
It looks to me like VW are either using a lot of rhetoric or they have spent a lot of money and are likely following the trajectory of UK GE who went wild on the internet and then bust.

As things are VW have a shed load of leased cars that are going to come back and be unsellable and at the same time no proven electrical sales.

Imho if VW are doing all the things the CEO says they will get themselves into very series financial trouble very quickly. Things are set up for a perfect storm for VW. Losing sales, leased vehicles having to be almost given away and meanwhile massive capex on unproved stuff that might not sell as punter will have lots of choice. If e.g. they bring out a model that turns out to be very poor and doesn't sell that might be the event that breaks them.

Regards,



Ody

Do you have any evidence that VW are having problems selling leased cars at the moment? Or predictions by some believable source that they will have problems in the future? Or is this just your opinion?

I don't have any proper macro evidence one way or the other. However my wife's leased Golf is such a nice car to drive that I can't believe it will be difficult for VW to sell at the end of its (three year) lease. And the low monthly leasing cost suggests that the Finance Operation believe its value will be high. I don't think that VW are taking the risk anyway. If they have any sense they will have hedged the costs by using a Financial partner who underwrites the risk of lower future value. Similarly my leased BMW is funded by a French finance company.

The cost of leasing a Tesla S, in contrast, is ridiculously high by comparison with its retail price (from over £1,000 a month to an unbelievable £2,500+ a month for a 6+35 months personal contract and these prices do not include extras or maintenance charges). This suggests that Tesla or its financial partners are not too sure of future values three years out. I know people who have considered leasing a Tesla through their companies, as the monthly costs to them are lower, but they didn't go ahead because the range and charging issues didn't fit with their business travel.

So, whether or not VW can make and sell their multi millions of EVs in the near future is to be proved. But on their current performance they won't have any of the problems you envisage in disposing of their second hand leased cars. And they don't seem to lack Financial partners to take this risk for them.

I would be interested if you have any evidence to the contrary.

regards

Howard

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6431
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1561 times
Been thanked: 973 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#179805

Postby odysseus2000 » November 12th, 2018, 6:59 pm

Hi Howard,

I don’t have a time machine, so everything I type about the future is just my opinion based on what I know now and what I expect to happen.

Car leasing by independents is a poor business with very thin margins:

https://www.osv.ltd.uk/how-do-car-leasi ... nies-work/

Such business regularly go bust and if re-sale values fall it will lead to more bankruptcies.

VW have expanded greatly into leasing: in the UK (this was 3 years ago):

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-manag ... up-leasing

If car values fall as I expect then this will be a big trouble for all leasing agents and the brokers not associated with manufacturers will not order like they have been even if they survive.

Meanwhile VW is now facing a lot of new competition. We have several new Chinese makers, Dyson and likely a few other who will all be offering electric cars. All of these competitors may be ppoor but if they take VW sales then one will have VW with a lot of spending stuck in the current assets on the balance sheet with reduced sales and cash flow, not a happy mix.

One could Monte Carlo all of this and folk will be doing those kinds of calculations, but there are so many uncertainties in my opinion to make such efforts likely very unreliable.

From talking to folk I get the impression that no one now wants to lease beyond 2 years, fearing carbon taxes, being stuck with obsolete models and often yearning to have an electric car.

It looks to me like a big storm brewing for VW, but I could be completely wrong and all of this is just opinion, i do not know what will happen, no one does.

Regards,

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2192
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 886 times
Been thanked: 1020 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#179871

Postby Howard » November 12th, 2018, 11:58 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Hi Howard,

I don’t have a time machine, so everything I type about the future is just my opinion based on what I know now and what I expect to happen.

Car leasing by independents is a poor business with very thin margins:

I don't think you have any evidence for this statement. There are some very successful brokers buying very large quantities of cars.
odysseus2000 wrote:https://www.osv.ltd.uk/how-do-car-leasi ... nies-work/

Such business regularly go bust and if re-sale values fall it will lead to more bankruptcies.

VW have expanded greatly into leasing: in the UK (this was 3 years ago):

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-manag ... up-leasing


There is a danger that we are just talking about what happens in the UK market here. Your dire predictions about VW’s leasing situation won’t necessarily be true for their world markets. However, the very interesting article you posted shows just how much grip the German manufacturers have on their distribution channels and the financial services related to supplying vehicles to the corporate sector, the public sector and to the consumer in the UK. For Tesla just to make inroads in the UK market supply chain could take years.

The article indicates another reason that Tesla’s monthly leasing costs are so high in the UK. They haven’t developed the scale of the big brands and don’t have the finance partners here to help drive the costs down.

If other countries’ markets are as complicated as the UK’s and companies like VW are producing EVs in volume within a few years it will take some time for Tesla and other new EV brands to break into the distribution channels
.[/quote]
odysseus2000 wrote:If car values fall as I expect then this will be a big trouble for all leasing agents and the brokers not associated with manufacturers will not order like they have been even if they survive.

Meanwhile VW is now facing a lot of new competition. We have several new Chinese makers, Dyson and likely a few other who will all be offering electric cars. All of these competitors may be ppoor but if they take VW sales then one will have VW with a lot of spending stuck in the current assets on the balance sheet with reduced sales and cash flow, not a happy mix.

This isn’t like selling mobile phones through shops for £500 each. I’d like to be proved wrong, but the thought that Dyson will threaten VW in the next three years must be a joke, surely!
odysseus2000 wrote:
One could Monte Carlo all of this and folk will be doing those kinds of calculations, but there are so many uncertainties in my opinion to make such efforts likely very unreliable.

From talking to folk I get the impression that no one now wants to lease beyond 2 years, fearing carbon taxes, being stuck with obsolete models and often yearning to have an electric car.

I don't think you fully understand the reasons for leasing. Taxes etc are included in the monthly cost and the current buoyant leasing market contradicts your impressions. As someone who has actually leased an electric car as a second vehicle for two years, I would only yearn for an EV if it had a range of 500 miles allowing me to get to Manchester and back without re-fuelling. All current EVs are only suitable as second cars or for fairly local transport for rich enthusiasts at the moment. I know of one previous owner of a Tesla who lived in Northamptonshire and worked in London and every week they commuted and worried about having the heating/aircon on because the range dropped dramatically and they were worried about breaking down before reaching their destination. The car had to go![/quote]
odysseus2000 wrote:It looks to me like a big storm brewing for VW, but I could be completely wrong and all of this is just opinion, i do not know what will happen, no one does.


Tesla may well grow fast in the USA selling to a rich market sector. But I'm not investing yet!

regards

Howard

Moderator Message:
Incorrect quoting corrected to make post readable - TJH

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6431
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1561 times
Been thanked: 973 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#179917

Postby odysseus2000 » November 13th, 2018, 9:02 am

My evidence for car leasing being a bad business is based on the £150 to £500 that each business makes on each car:

https://www.osv.ltd.uk/how-do-car-leasi ... nies-work/

Moreover, most of the car manufacturers like VW have their own leasing business. In essence what has been created are a lot of banks. My experience of the financial industry tells me that these business will compete against each other to a level of stupidity. Similar to the way banks once got into selling houses (remember that time) and then the market crashed and the banks gave up on being property sellers, but for a time it was a good business..

All of these leasing business depend on being able to re-sell cars for fairly well quantified amount and if that was to go lower there will be trouble. Some folk tell me that buried in licensing agreements is the ability to demand more money of folk who have licensed cars if the re-sale value of the car falls below the actuarial calculations. That would be a fun situation if what I am told is true and the leasing companies start asking for substantial sums at the termination of the leases.

If all this was happening with out new competitors it would all sort it self out, but there are several new competitors coming. Dyson will likely sell just a fraction of the cars VW do, but Dyson is just one of several new entrants and as the car market is not going to expand to suit all there must necessarily be less sales for incumbents, exactly the sort of situation a manufacturer dreads. One has already seen this in the US with BMW having to issue a profits warning due to Tesla eating their lunch.


Note also that Tesla are using a direct sales method, no dealers and this has so many advantages that I expect other new auto will follow suit, Chinese, Dyson etc essentially cutting out the middle man. Existing auto will lobby against it as they have done in the US but they have not stopped it.

As you note electric cars are not suitable for some high mileage users and there will likely be some consumer reluctance to adopt electric as fast as the politicians would like. Hence I expect that we will see in the next 3-5 years a host of carbon taxes all around the world. The slight inconveniences of electric would then run up against substantially larger costs for ICE vehicles and force a switch to electric. Of course I can’t be certain this will happen but I believe it is very likely and Canada has already begun.

From the current perspective everything I am predicting looks wild and unlikely and it may never come to pass, but I believe there is a reasonable chance that the big changes brought by the ending of mass ICE transport and replacing it with electric will lead to very big changes in the auto market and that lessors and legacy auto are badly positioned. It is probably not going to be as devastating to legacy auto as cars were to horse drawn carriage makers but I believe it will cause changes that are substantial and that legacy auto even now does not fully appreciate what is coming and the threats to their business. Legacy auto imho remains too complacent and resembles the UK car industry when the Japanese began to ship cars. At that time it was inconceivable that the UK car industry would collapse but it did to be replaced by much smaller foreign owned business employing a lot less people.

I would not want to be in the legacy car or leasing industries but from the outside I think it will be an interesting few years.

Regards,

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6431
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1561 times
Been thanked: 973 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#180069

Postby odysseus2000 » November 13th, 2018, 7:16 pm

A quick look inside the giga factory:

https://twitter.com/CNBC/status/1062343129318285313

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#180233

Postby BobbyD » November 14th, 2018, 1:03 pm

European Teslas to use CCS charging standard, European Tesla superchargers to be retrofitted with CCS charge cables

Tesla confirms Model 3 is getting a CCS plug in Europe, adapter coming for Model S and Model X

After years of speculation, Tesla finally confirmed today that Model 3 is getting a CCS Combo 2 plug in Europe and an adapter is coming for Model S and Model X.

...Furthermore, Tesla said that they will start retrofitting European Supercharger stations with “dual charge cables” to both support the existing connector and CCS standard.

PeterGray
Lemon Slice
Posts: 848
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 785 times
Been thanked: 343 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#180241

Postby PeterGray » November 14th, 2018, 1:37 pm

Probably inevitable, but a sensible move towards standardisation.

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#180245

Postby BobbyD » November 14th, 2018, 1:47 pm

PeterGray wrote:Probably inevitable, but a sensible move towards standardisation.


I wouldn't say anything is inevitable when it comes to Musk, but accepting the what should have been inevitable certainly.

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#180383

Postby BobbyD » November 14th, 2018, 10:08 pm

Competing 5G automotive standards:

The latest draft of the proposed rules seen by Reuters last month paves the way for cars equipped with wifi called ITS-G5 to hit the roads in Europe while regulators will review the rules at the latest three years after their implementation to take into account any new technologies.

ITS-G5 supporters include Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE), Renault, NXP, Autotalks and Kapsch TrafficCom.

BMW, Vodafone, Ericsson back the alternative 5G standard called C-V2X, putting them in the same group as Daimler, Ford, PSA Group, Deutsche Telekom, Huawei [HWT.UL], Intel, Qualcomm and Samsung.



https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-au ... KKCN1NJ2MT

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6431
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1561 times
Been thanked: 973 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#181439

Postby odysseus2000 » November 19th, 2018, 6:07 pm

Mercedes Tesla partnership on electric Sprinter?

https://electrek.co/2018/11/19/tesla-me ... elon-musk/

Regards,


Return to “Macro and Global Topics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 24 guests