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Musk endeavours

The Big Picture Place
ReallyVeryFoolish
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Re: Musk endeavours

#269757

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » December 7th, 2019, 8:21 am

redsturgeon wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
ReformedCharacter wrote:EV drivers can charge for free at Tesco:

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/enviro ... e-at-tesco

Every little helps :)

RC

Great idea from Tesco. The elephant in the room? What's your chances of turning up and actually finding a charging point that's vacant? Close to zero, I reckon.

RVF


At the start a good chance but as BEV takes off perhaps less so. There are three Tesla charging points at my local Sainsburys, I have only one seen all three occupied.

John

Perhaps because only Teslas can use them? Locking out all the PHEV owners as well as other BEV owners.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#269760

Postby redsturgeon » December 7th, 2019, 8:24 am

odysseus2000 wrote:Musk wins defamation case against diver:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50695593

Regards,


I think the verdict might have gone the other way in a UK court. It seems wrong that you can call someone a "pedo". Then challenge them to "sue if its not true". But then argue that you didn't really mean it.

I guess if you are a billionaire fighting against an impecunious diver trying to help some trapped children then you have an advantage in court.

Not an edifying spectacle.

I guess the lesson is, never insult a billionaire.

John

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Re: Musk endeavours

#269763

Postby kiloran » December 7th, 2019, 8:50 am

redsturgeon wrote:
At the start a good chance but as BEV takes off perhaps less so. There are three Tesla charging points at my local Sainsburys, I have only one seen all three occupied.

John

A local shopping centre has a couple of Tesla charging points, and I usually see a Tesla there on my weekly shop, but I have NEVER seen it actually plugged in

--kiloran

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Re: Musk endeavours

#269764

Postby BobbyD » December 7th, 2019, 8:56 am

redsturgeon wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
ReformedCharacter wrote:EV drivers can charge for free at Tesco:

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/enviro ... e-at-tesco

Every little helps :)

RC

Great idea from Tesco. The elephant in the room? What's your chances of turning up and actually finding a charging point that's vacant? Close to zero, I reckon.

RVF


At the start a good chance but as BEV takes off perhaps less so. There are three Tesla charging points at my local Sainsburys, I have only one seen all three occupied.

John


It is not impossible that as BEV's become more popular more charging stations will be installed...

100 of the 600 installations planned by VW/Tesco are already in place so that's another 500 to come and the more there are the less likely you are to go to store A rather than store B on the grounds that store A has a charger.

VW's calculation given the average Brit spends 50 minutes in the supermarket is that you'll be able to pick up 22 miles of range during an average trolley dash, so great if you are a very low mileage user but unlikely to be anything more than another 'little' to help for most users. Perhaps a coffee and a snack while we add another 10 miles? Would be nice to see some higher rate chargers made available on a meter though. Being able to add a couple of hundred miles every week, at a reserved spot, while you did your shopping would probably be enough for a lot of users who don't have home access charging.

Two trends which are at loggerheads are the increasing use of car park management companies and provision of electric charging. It was, from memory, BP who introduced a 30 minute maximum stay on one of their forecourts enforced by a 3rd party to stop people using their parking for nearby attractions and introduced a chargemaster on the same site. Apparently people don't like being charged £100 for using the facilities you provided as intended. Less of a problem in supermarkets because we are talking about a free charger in this case, and average stay is longer, our local Waitrose has a 2 hour limit although they charge for charging.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#269771

Postby redsturgeon » December 7th, 2019, 9:42 am

BobbyD wrote:
It is not impossible that as BEV's become more popular more charging stations will be installed...



You don't say!

My belief however is that charging stations will be playing catch up for a few years yet.

Personally I don't have too much of an issue with that. I have a 7kw charger on my drive so I will keep my cars charged up. I foresee only a few times a year needing to wait at a motorway charging point for a really long journey.

I would probably always drive by any supermarket station and pull in if it is free for a quick top up while shopping.

John

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Re: Musk endeavours

#269772

Postby BobbyD » December 7th, 2019, 9:50 am

redsturgeon wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
It is not impossible that as BEV's become more popular more charging stations will be installed...



You don't say!

My belief however is that charging stations will be playing catch up for a few years yet.


I'd say there was an outside chance!

Is charging infrastructure actually lagging? It would appear from very scant evidence that there is capacity waiting for use rather than cars desperately seeking charge. Maybe it's more of an ill fit than an imbalance?

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Re: Musk endeavours

#269874

Postby Howard » December 7th, 2019, 7:26 pm

BobbyD wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
It is not impossible that as BEV's become more popular more charging stations will be installed...



You don't say!

My belief however is that charging stations will be playing catch up for a few years yet.


I'd say there was an outside chance!

Is charging infrastructure actually lagging? It would appear from very scant evidence that there is capacity waiting for use rather than cars desperately seeking charge. Maybe it's more of an ill fit than an imbalance?


Yes, because of Ody's enthusiasm we tend to think that BEVs are fairly common. They have only just reached a market share of 1.5% of new cars sold in the UK year to date. Their share of the whole UK car fleet is infinitesimally small at the moment.

And, by the way, who spends 50 minutes in a supermarket? I don't think I have ever spent that long for a visit in my life. If I go with Mrs H, she takes no more than half an hour for a weekly shop. I'm a bit scared to go in one on my own, but have been known to drop in for 5 minutes or so. ;)

regards

Howard

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Re: Musk endeavours

#269891

Postby tjh290633 » December 7th, 2019, 10:11 pm

As it happens, I do our regular weekly shop on Saturday morning, usually, at about 8am. It usually takes about an hour. Were I to take my wife along it would take twice as long. This is down to her speed of walking, a random approach to going round the store, and the inevitable gazing at things not on the shopping list.

There is a 3 hour parking limit at our local Tesco. I see that Lidl allow 1.5 hours. I visited under protest a few days ago.

TJH

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Re: Musk endeavours

#269900

Postby odysseus2000 » December 7th, 2019, 11:43 pm

New revenue stream for Tesla, copying the Apple model of charging for services:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-premium ... tion-cost/

With say currently 700k Tesla cars on the roads and a 10% take up, this would equate to 70k x10 x 12 = $8.4 million a year & increasing as the number of Tesla cars rises. 10% take up probably a bit pessimistic given how folk now have trouble living without the internet. There will be some collection overhead that will probably require people although synthetics are now very close to being capable of dealing with most of the overhead issues.

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#269901

Postby odysseus2000 » December 8th, 2019, 12:00 am

My shopping tends to be late in the evening, often after 9 pm as I am too busy the rest of the day.

At that time in my local stores there are often more shelf packers than customers and often perishable stuff has been marked down such that I often get bread at 5p a loaf. There is some competition for this but as a lot of the late night shoppers are Muslims I can sometimes find coming to end of sell date pork, sausages etc at very good prices as they don't eat it. If my dog is lucky she gets a nice bonanza. There is often low cost cooked chicken put out at around 7-8 pm, but that is too early for me. Although the supermarkets are getting better at inventory management and there is less high end stuff than there used to be. Christmas eve used to be my favourite day for shopping but the happy days of very heavy Christmas eve mark downs seem gone for ever and one has to shop a few days before to do really well which last year brought me some super exterior led lights at about 20% of the initial price.

Given the number of folk about I imagine that if there was free charging it would not be heavily used, but as there are few customers the time needed to shop is relatively small, often the longest part being the self check out as having the luxury of someone else to scan seems to have been mostly removed and often I do something wrong and have to wait for one of the few employees to reset the scanner etc. I have however, found that if I don't use any kind of shopping bag till after I have paid, the check out weighing scale is less awkward and vexing.

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#269964

Postby BobbyD » December 8th, 2019, 1:38 pm

Tesla is worth $10, $250 or $500


- https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/12/06/ ... 0-or--500/

Herndon, VA — Volkswagen AG has successfully demonstrated the world’s first live use of quantum computing to help optimize traffic routing. During the Web Summit conference in Lisbon, Portugal, earlier this month, nine public transit buses used a traffic management system developed by Volkswagen scientists in the United States and Germany, powered by a D-Wave quantum computer to calculate the fastest travel routes individually and in near-real time.


- https://media.vw.com/releases/1236

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Re: Musk endeavours

#269992

Postby BobbyD » December 8th, 2019, 6:21 pm

A Tesla on Autopilot slammed into two vehicles on Saturday, one of which was a Connecticut State Police cruiser, officials said.

The driver of the Tesla told police that he put the car on Autopilot because he was checking on his dog in the backseat, according to a statement from Connecticut State Police.

The incident happened in the early morning hours Saturday on Interstate 95 in Norwalk.

Police had been called to the highway because of a disabled vehicle that was occupying a lane, authorities said.

As troopers were waiting for a tow truck for that car, the Tesla, described as a 2018 Model 3, was traveling northbound and struck the rear of the cruiser before continuing in the same direction and hitting the disabled vehicle, according to authorities.

The car was finally stopped several hundred feet ahead by another trooper.


- https://abcnews.go.com/US/tesla-autopil ... d=67570199

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Re: Musk endeavours

#270112

Postby Howard » December 9th, 2019, 3:52 pm

I see that, at last, the mainstream media have cottoned on to what we sceptics have been saying. Perhaps they have been reading this thread? ;)

In the Times today on page four is an article headed. Chelsea tractors rule the road as SUVs outsell electric cars 37 to 1.

The article quotes a study by the UK Energy Research Centre which points out that BEVs still only account for about 1 percent of new car sales. And gas-guzzling SUVs made up 21% of new car sales, up from 13.5% in 2017. This is an international trend according to the study.

The rapid uptake of unnecessarily large vehicles makes a mockery of UK policy on the environment.

The evidence in the article is repeated in the Times leader column.

The main conclusions match many of our comments. Electric cars must get cheaper and more convenient to be more popular.

See https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -zt0kpsvqv
(Registration necessary)

regards

Howard

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Re: Musk endeavours

#270119

Postby odysseus2000 » December 9th, 2019, 4:28 pm

Howard wrote:I see that, at last, the mainstream media have cottoned on to what we sceptics have been saying. Perhaps they have been reading this thread? ;)

In the Times today on page four is an article headed. Chelsea tractors rule the road as SUVs outsell electric cars 37 to 1.

The article quotes a study by the UK Energy Research Centre which points out that BEVs still only account for about 1 percent of new car sales. And gas-guzzling SUVs made up 21% of new car sales, up from 13.5% in 2017. This is an international trend according to the study.

The rapid uptake of unnecessarily large vehicles makes a mockery of UK policy on the environment.

The evidence in the article is repeated in the Times leader column.

The main conclusions match many of our comments. Electric cars must get cheaper and more convenient to be more popular.

See https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -zt0kpsvqv
(Registration necessary)

regards

Howard


Or ice cars must get more expensive & less convenient.

The beautiful fact is that there is a huge BEV market for the taking!

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#270123

Postby BobbyD » December 9th, 2019, 4:42 pm

Howard wrote:I see that, at last, the mainstream media have cottoned on to what we sceptics have been saying. Perhaps they have been reading this thread? ;)

In the Times today on page four is an article headed. Chelsea tractors rule the road as SUVs outsell electric cars 37 to 1.

The article quotes a study by the UK Energy Research Centre which points out that BEVs still only account for about 1 percent of new car sales. And gas-guzzling SUVs made up 21% of new car sales, up from 13.5% in 2017. This is an international trend according to the study.

The rapid uptake of unnecessarily large vehicles makes a mockery of UK policy on the environment.

The evidence in the article is repeated in the Times leader column.

The main conclusions match many of our comments. Electric cars must get cheaper and more convenient to be more popular.

See https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -zt0kpsvqv
(Registration necessary)

regards

Howard


SMMT have BEV's at 1.5% for the year but 3.0% in November, with PHEV at 2.8% and HEV at 4.5%. All told that's 10.3%.

That 1.5% was 0.6% last year.

Makes you wonder what has changed in 12 months. That's 18,941 extra BEV's and other imports only runs to 11,762.

There's a theory that BEV sales in the US might spike this month as their tax year runs Jan 1st to Dec 31st, so tax rebates are closer at hand for those who buy in December.

odysseus2000 wrote:Or ice cars must get more expensive & less convenient.


Both are pretty much nailed on as far as I can see. ICE emissions standards are scheduled to keep tightening, r&d on ICE is scheduled to grind to a halt and there will eventually be a loss of scale, and the e-Citigo IV is coming.

VW agree:

Image

- https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EK9JGufWwAAP6NF.jpg:large

Original presentation here: https://www.volkswagenag.com/presence/i ... adshow.pdf

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Re: Musk endeavours

#270126

Postby Meatyfool » December 9th, 2019, 4:55 pm

What is lost to a great many "ordinary" people is that they could have an electric car now, but are scared away by reports about charging infrastructure.

If it is a second car that is only used for a short commute, runs to the shops etc, has a charger at home with off-road parking, then it is a no-brainer to go electric.

There must be more than a million cars on the road that fit that description.

Meatyfool..

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Re: Musk endeavours

#270145

Postby BobbyD » December 9th, 2019, 5:22 pm

Meatyfool wrote:What is lost to a great many "ordinary" people is that they could have an electric car now, but are scared away by reports about charging infrastructure.

If it is a second car that is only used for a short commute, runs to the shops etc, has a charger at home with off-road parking, then it is a no-brainer to go electric.

There must be more than a million cars on the road that fit that description.

Meatyfool..


I would imagine one of the major hurdles is that most people don't know anybody with a BEV. Being the first in to the sea always carries a certain risk. Once John has been very happy with his BEV for 6 months and Jane's eldest won't shut up about how much she loves not paying for petrol anymore, people will feel more confident atleast considering a BEV.

For those more resistant possibly an ICE with a training battery will help, and of course there are some who would rather walk than buy an ICE, but I suspect that will diminish with time.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#270150

Postby Howard » December 9th, 2019, 5:35 pm

Meatyfool wrote:What is lost to a great many "ordinary" people is that they could have an electric car now, but are scared away by reports about charging infrastructure.

If it is a second car that is only used for a short commute, runs to the shops etc, has a charger at home with off-road parking, then it is a no-brainer to go electric.

There must be more than a million cars on the road that fit that description.

Meatyfool..


Are you sure you are right? Mrs H's car requirement fits that description. She changed last year from a brilliant BMW 330e which was charged each night in the garage. (The cost of extending the lease wasn't economical.) Despite our preference for a BEV, we ended up with a new petrol Golf 1.4 which is a very nice second car. It was much cheaper to lease than any comparable BEV including the EGolf, despite any subsidies.

Whilst the cost of electricity is cheaper than petrol, for a low mileage (6k a year) second car which gets 44 mpg (measured on spreadsheet) the overall costs of ownership were much lower for a petrol Golf than any BEV available at the time.

I was impressed with the Nissan Leaf which our local dealer lent me for the day. A nice car to drive, but expensive to buy or lease at the time, and a little bit larger than the Golf.

Obviously second hand BEVs are cheaper, but so are their ICE equivalents and buyers are worried about battery life as well as the other issues you mention.

regards

Howard

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Re: Musk endeavours

#270157

Postby Howard » December 9th, 2019, 6:00 pm

PS Have just had a quick look at the relative costs of leasing Golfs. A 1.5 Auto ICE is around £230 a month for a 48 month term, 8k a year. For an E Golf you will pay around £254 a month.

So with no road tax cost for the E Golf the overall cost is closer than last year. But I doubt if you'd save £34 a month on fuel unless one had solar panels.

So not a "no brainer".

Howard

https://leasing.com/independent-brokers ... 423051544/

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Re: Musk endeavours

#270164

Postby odysseus2000 » December 9th, 2019, 6:20 pm

Howard
Whilst the cost of electricity is cheaper than petrol, for a low mileage (6k a year) second car which gets 44 mpg (measured on spreadsheet) the overall costs of ownership were much lower for a petrol Golf than any BEV available at the time.


Surprised the mpg is that low.

My Volvo V70, a much bigger and heavier car than a golf, with a five cylinder 2.5 litre diesel does over 42 mpg.

Regards,


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