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Musk endeavours

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odysseus2000
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Re: Musk endeavours

#158713

Postby odysseus2000 » August 11th, 2018, 9:53 am

In one of the lawsuits, the plaintiff Kalman Isaacs said Musk’s tweets were false and misleading, and together with Tesla’s failure to correct them amounted to a “nuclear attack” designed to “completely decimate” short-sellers.


Ha Ha.

Good luck with that, but they will need something far more substantial to have any hope of getting anywhere, especially as Musk had previously warned short sellers about the dangers of shorting Tesla stock.

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odysseus2000
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Re: Musk endeavours

#158754

Postby odysseus2000 » August 11th, 2018, 2:02 pm

Apropos of nothing, I had a drive in a new Tesla the other day. I believe the asking price was around £65k.

I then went to my local Ford dealer and had a drive in a new petrol Ford valued at 22k. I am not sure there was that much to choose between them.

£40k buys a lot of petrol. Or a lot of Vanguard.


Yes, and I agree, except I would buy second hand letting someone else take the depreciation; my car is 18 years old.

But how many other people in the population are driven by such thoughts of economy?

Basing investment decisions on how I would personally behave is not going to be any good if most of the rest of the population bases their buying decisions on a different calculus.

When I look at what folk spend their money on I rarely see economy as a prime driver, more its about wanting what they perceive to be the best. Consequently Apple iPhone X sell in good volume when someone can get something that would do everything they mostly need for a lot less. I have an iPhone 4s; many think this is so old they can't believe it still works.

Why some different calculus would apply to cars I can not see. Sure the Ford is a lot cheaper but if enough folk want a Tesla there is a good business there.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#158756

Postby odysseus2000 » August 11th, 2018, 2:10 pm

Purely anecdotal, and not to be used for investment decisions, but kind of interesting! Locally our upmarket so called "farm shop" are Tesla devotees and now have a row of 8 or so (mostly empty) Tesla charging points, mostly used by the owners I think. But a few miles down the road a hotel has recently opened and they are providing Porsche charging points for their customers.

Tesla don't have a clean run, though they are clearly ahead in the performance market for now. But you have to ask how long propriety charging systems can last. If electric really is the future that is a massive hindrance to it.

Peter


Yes, and Tesla have offered the IP to their charging system for free and as far as I can tell most (all?) other makers have not taken up the offer.

The deployment of new tech often follows similar lines of incompatibility and those incompatibilities can endure, e.g. almost nothing that fits a Ford will also fit a Vauxhall, one of the few commonalities is the fuel.

Given how relatively easy it is for anyone ordinarily skilled in the art of electric power supply to alter voltage and current it is likely that convertors will be created that will allow most power supplies to fit most cars, but in the by and by likely a standard such as the 13 amp plug will probably emerge.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#158799

Postby odysseus2000 » August 11th, 2018, 5:36 pm

Hat tip to Smartertrader on twitter for this story which I find catches how I view the current situation:

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/10/th ... explosion/

Clearly I nor the writer of the story know what is going to happen, but this looks to me like a plausible scenario.

If you don't agree or better can find some reasons why this article is wrong, then I would be very interested to read them, so please post

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Re: Musk endeavours

#158804

Postby PeterGray » August 11th, 2018, 6:13 pm

Good luck with that, but they will need something far more substantial to have any hope of getting anywhere, especially as Musk had previously warned short sellers about the dangers of shorting Tesla stock.

Sorry I don't see Musk "warning" having any relevance to anyone if it comes to court (or the SEC). That has no bearing if he misled or failed to issue notification through proper channels, and caused losses to market participants.

Peter

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Re: Musk endeavours

#158818

Postby odysseus2000 » August 11th, 2018, 7:57 pm

Peter
Sorry I don't see Musk "warning" having any relevance to anyone if it comes to court (or the SEC). That has no bearing if he misled or failed to issue notification through proper channels, and caused losses to market participants.


I beg to differ. If this was a one off tweet one could see potential for litigation, but this is just one in very many tweets that when it suited folk there has been no complaint.

If the SEC thought tweets were inappropriate they have had years to act, but apart from some unsubstantiated comments about informal investigations and some comments by an ex SEC official there has been nothing.

Any jury would have to decide that Musk misled investors by this tweet and so far with the board supporting him there is no evidence of this.

It may come to pass that investors in funds with large short exposure to Tesla will claim damages for inappropriate investment behaviour and inappropriate risk management by the funds that have taken large short positions.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#158833

Postby Itsallaguess » August 11th, 2018, 9:21 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
If the SEC thought tweets were inappropriate they have had years to act, but apart from some unsubstantiated comments about informal investigations and some comments by an ex SEC official there has been nothing.


Surely it's got nothing to do with how 'appropriate' a message-technology itself is, and much more to do with the message itself...

Perhaps, up to now, none were deemed to have manipulated the market....

Time will tell if they feel the same way with this one....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Musk endeavours

#158852

Postby odysseus2000 » August 11th, 2018, 10:05 pm

Surely it's got nothing to do with how 'appropriate' a message-technology itself is, and much more to do with the message itself...

Perhaps, up to now, none were deemed to have manipulated the market....

Time will tell if they feel the same way with this one....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


Correct and Musk has tweeted several times about the danger of shorting Tesla stock and about being private.

One can argue this is itself market manipulation for the longs and against the shorts. The shorts didn't believe him and instead relied on their own analysis and remained short.

Given the developments it is hard to argue that the shorts have been mislead, but easy to argue that they took a position based on their own analysis and against the tweets of Musk which is how markets work. Can't see how Musk could be cited as having mislead Shorts, if anything he was particularly kind in warning them.

The questions now are does Musk have the money, there should be an 8K if he has and if so is the $420 the top of the cover range or the bottom? A short squeeze here could imho take the price to buy back borrowed stock to multiples of the $420 offer price.

Alternatively if Musk doesn't have the money the shorts will make a killing.

Shorts in Tesla have never been a risk/reward I would take, but some folk believe they know more than I do and some have made very good money shorting Tesla shares.

Interesting what happens now.

For me I currently still intend to take the private shares if offered, but if the price was to rocket to say $1200+ I might be tempted to sell at least some.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#158856

Postby Itsallaguess » August 11th, 2018, 10:15 pm

Ody, just a reminder that if you continue to quote replies, but then delete the bit in the automatically-generated text that says who you are quoting, it does two things -

1. It stops any potential auto-notifications being generated by the board software, to tell the users you are replying to that they *have* been replied to.

2. It becomes harder for *other users* to see who any particular reply or discussion is meant for.

I'm sure most of us would like to keep involved with discussions where replies are being made, but you're in danger of lessening that involvement if you don't allow the auto-reply text to stay as it is.....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Musk endeavours

#158857

Postby BobbyD » August 11th, 2018, 10:20 pm

PeterGray wrote: But you have to ask how long propriety charging systems can last. If electric really is the future that is a massive hindrance to it.


Who we are
IONITY is the joint venture of BMW Group, Daimler AG, Ford Motor Company and the Volkswagen Group with Audi and Porsche. We are here to build a network of reliable and powerful charging stations along major routes across Europe.


Not a bad collective, and a sign that even this early in mass ev's development manufacturer's see the need for standards.

- http://www.ionity.eu/ionity-en.html

odysseus2000 wrote:
In one of the lawsuits, the plaintiff Kalman Isaacs said Musk’s tweets were false and misleading, and together with Tesla’s failure to correct them amounted to a “nuclear attack” designed to “completely decimate” short-sellers.


Ha Ha.

Good luck with that, but they will need something far more substantial to have any hope of getting anywhere, especially as Musk had previously warned short sellers about the dangers of shorting Tesla stock.

Regards,


Erm, I'm not sure I warned them shorting was dangerous is a recognised defence against charges of market manipulation...

PeterGray wrote:Sorry I don't see Musk "warning" having any relevance to anyone if it comes to court (or the SEC). That has no bearing if he misled or failed to issue notification through proper channels, and caused losses to market participants.

Peter


Part of Musk's problem may come from the fact that the SEC have previously found social media to be an appropriate channel

Washington, D.C., April 2, 2013 —
The Securities and Exchange Commission today issued a report that makes clear that companies can use social media outlets like Facebook and Twitter to announce key information in compliance with Regulation Fair Disclosure (Regulation FD) so long as investors have been alerted about which social media will be used to disseminate such information.


- https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2013-2013-51htm

odysseus2000 wrote:Any jury would have to decide that Musk misled investors by this tweet and so far with the board supporting him there is no evidence of this.


So far there's no corroboration of Musks's claim that he had the financing secured to take the company private at $420. If that claim isdiscredited making the case that Musk misled investors isn't going to take a lot of imagination.

Given the developments it is hard to argue that the shorts have been mislead, but easy to argue that they took a position based on their own analysis and against the tweets of Musk which is how markets work. Can't see how Musk could be cited as having mislead Shorts, if anything he was particularly kind in warning them.

The questions now are does Musk have the money...


You mean the money he claimed to have when you assert he definitely wasn't misleading the market?

That's rather the point, if he did then his problems are significantly diminished, if he didn't wouldn't you say that by claiming he did he had been misleading?

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Re: Musk endeavours

#158858

Postby Itsallaguess » August 11th, 2018, 10:23 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
The questions now are does Musk have the money


If there's any real investigations, then I don't think that will be the question.

I think the question, if there is an investigation, would be to ask if Musk had the money when he made the tweet......

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Musk endeavours

#158862

Postby odysseus2000 » August 11th, 2018, 10:51 pm

Ody, just a reminder that if you continue to quote replies, but then delete the bit in the automatically-generated text that says who you are quoting, it does two things -

1. It stops any potential auto-notifications being generated by the board software, to tell the users you are replying to that they *have* been replied to.

2. It becomes harder for *other users* to see who any particular reply or discussion is meant for.

I'm sure most of us would like to keep involved with discussions where replies are being made, but you're in danger of lessening that involvement if you don't allow the auto-reply text to stay as it is.....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


Thanks for pointing this out, although I am a little confused.

All I have been doing is selecting the bit I wanted in the previous post, putting the posters name and then pasting the bit I wanted to quote. I didn't realise I was deleting anything.

Please could you tell me, or give a link as to how should I use auto-reply text?

Thanks

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Re: Musk endeavours

#158879

Postby Itsallaguess » August 12th, 2018, 6:21 am

odysseus2000 wrote:
All I have been doing is selecting the bit I wanted in the previous post, putting the posters name and then pasting the bit I wanted to quote. I didn't realise I was deleting anything.


Ah, well that makes sense then Ody, as it sounds like you're 'manually' creating the reply, rather than allowing the board software to help do it for you, and for the software to do it in a way that activates the relevant notifications and also makes the posts easier to read in terms of allowing readers to see who you are replying to.

Towards the top right of any post you want to reply to, you'll see a 'double-quote' icon - it's to the right of the 'report this post' button. If you press that, the TLF board software will automatically format a reply to the post, allowing you to then type your reply underneath it the original post.

Give it a go using the 'Preview' option instead of actually committing a post, and you'll see it working as expected.

Of course you will often want to remove some parts of the post you are replying to (and it does help a great deal with the readability of replies when people do spend a few seconds doing this.....), but at least the replies are much better to read then, and as I've said, if the person you've replied to has got the auto-notifications turned on, then they are sent a board-notification to say that there is a reply to one of their posts, and the notification then also allows them to jump to the reply itself, if they want to read it straight away, which of course helps the general discussions flow smoothly on the boards, and helps people avoid missing important replies if those notifications aren't activated correctly by your type of 'manual' replies.

Sometimes when editing down a quoted post, it can be fiddly to get to where you want to be, so often I will use the clipboard to hold the section of text that I want to be inside the quote, and then just delete everything inside the 'quote/un-quote' braces, and then simply paste in the smaller section of text that I want to leave in.

When formatting a reply using the above option, I always like to manually insert a blank line after the initial auto-generated 'user-being-quoted' braces, as I think that helps to format the reply a bit better for reading, but that's just a personal choice.

Hope the above helps.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Musk endeavours

#158883

Postby odysseus2000 » August 12th, 2018, 7:24 am

Itsallaguess wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:
Hope the above helps.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


Yes I was doing it manually, habit from writing lots and lots of html.

I have done this using the methods you suggested, seems to work fine.

Thanks for your help,

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#158895

Postby PeterGray » August 12th, 2018, 9:30 am

Good point re quoting iaag,

I tend to "manually" quote, much better to use the quote option and then delete the bits I don't want. Thanks for that.

Peter

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Re: Musk endeavours

#159092

Postby odysseus2000 » August 12th, 2018, 9:02 pm

Interesting the requirements for needing to file an 8k:

https://www.sec.gov/fast-answers/answersform8khtm.html

If any of the criteria are met in sections 1-6 then filing within 4 business days is required.

Section 7 is about FD (Full Disclosure) which might need a sooner disclosure.

Section 8 though is "other events" with no time scale mentioned.

Musk's tweet was on Monday, which if you don't count the day of the tweet would imply that there should be a 8k on Monday, but does Musk's tweet fit in with the "other events" of section 8, since he only said he was considering and as of yet there has been no material change, just a possibility that this might happen.

Indeed the "considering" and later tweets that this isn't certain as it requires share holder approval all fit in with this not being material at the present time.

If anyone knows I would be interested.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#159124

Postby BobbyD » August 13th, 2018, 1:18 am

After Tesla Buyout Tweet, Some Investors Wonder: Where Was Nasdaq?
Elon Musk’s ‘financing secured’ buyout tweet last week touched off 80 minutes of frenzied trading before Nasdaq called a halt

...

Typically, exchanges halt trading in a company’s shares when it tells them it is about to release “material news,” or information that could sway investors’ trading decisions. An exchange typically keeps trading halted until a disclosure provides some clarity.

Other investors wondered why the exchange kept the halt in place for more than an hour and a half, and then why it chose to resume trading at 3:45 p.m.

...

Nasdaq rules require listed companies to notify its MarketWatch division, via an electronic disclosure system, at least 10 minutes before publicly releasing “certain material news announcements” between the hours of 7 a.m. and 8 p.m. ET. Typically, the heads-up allows the exchange to coordinate with the company and evaluate whether to halt trading “pending news”—which compliance experts say levels the playing field for investors making trading decisions.

With Tesla, the time lag between Mr. Musk’s tweet and Nasdaq’s decision to halt trading suggests the exchange was blindsided by the CEO’s tweet—which would constitute a violation of Nasdaq rules, several traders and regulatory experts said.


- https://www.wsj.com/articles/after-tesl ... 1534078800

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Re: Musk endeavours

#159239

Postby odysseus2000 » August 13th, 2018, 2:34 pm

Fascinating statement by Musk:

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update ... edirect=no

As I read this there is no chance of anyone winning any legal battles with him since he has acted as a private shareholder announcing his intentions to create a level playing field so that the big players he was talking to did not have an advantage.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#159242

Postby odysseus2000 » August 13th, 2018, 2:42 pm

Additionally as I read the announcement, I don't believe the tweet from Musk last week can be considered an event for which an 8k is required as the board have not yet come to a recommendation and that would be needed I believe before any shareholder vote. One share holder making a statement does not commit the board to do anything, hence as I see it, no need for an 8K.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#159243

Postby BobbyD » August 13th, 2018, 2:44 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Fascinating statement by Musk:

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update ... edirect=no

As I read this there is no chance of anyone winning any legal battles with him since he has acted as a private shareholder announcing his intentions to create a level playing field so that the big players he was talking to did not have an advantage.

Regards,



I left the July 31st meeting with no question that a deal with the Saudi sovereign fund could be closed, and that it was just a matter of getting the process moving. This is why I referred to “funding secured” in the August 7th announcement.


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