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Cars are all going electric

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odysseus2000
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Re: Cars are all going electric

#87337

Postby odysseus2000 » October 11th, 2017, 9:04 am

One of several interesting developments in electric cars:

https://mobile.twitter.com/mashable/sta ... 77/video/1

If the performance is anything like claimed it represents a step change in capability. There are many other ideas in this technology, with both Airbus & Boeing are looking at this type of technology for short to medium haul, but have been arguing that current lithium battery technology isn't good enough, this suggests maybe it is.

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#132362

Postby odysseus2000 » April 15th, 2018, 6:03 pm

China developing toads that charge your car as you drive:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features ... n-the-move

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#132368

Postby Bialystock » April 15th, 2018, 6:45 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:China developing toads that charge your car as you drive:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features ... n-the-move

Regards,


Toads?

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#132370

Postby PinkDalek » April 15th, 2018, 6:59 pm

Bialystock wrote:Toads?


T being next to R on qwerty keyboards but the mention of toads certainly encouraged me to read the first part of the link.

Incidentally (for odysseus2000), it is perfectly acceptable and good practice to include a short extract, such that people know amphibian powered vehicles are not being described:

"China’s Built a Road So Smart It Will Be Able to Charge Your Car"

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#132372

Postby mike » April 15th, 2018, 7:12 pm

I think the Chinese idea has more of a future than the recent Swedish idea, with the next step hopefully using the actual road surface, rather than a wide surface beside it.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-first-electrified-road-for-charging-vehicles-opens-in-sweden

And if you're thinking as I did, they do mention the S word towards the end !

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#132397

Postby odysseus2000 » April 15th, 2018, 10:09 pm

Sorry about missing the typo re toads, likely my fault, but the latest Apple typing correction can be too quick to believe it knows what you plan to type.

Yes, good to include bits of extracts.

The Swedish system looks a bit 20 th century, but maybe simplicity has its advantages, but would presumably need heating to keep the roads clear of snow in winter.

An inductive pickup might be better.

Still given the 300 mile range of e.g Tesla cars I am not sure one needs to have dynamic charging especially as if the dynamic charging fails, small batteries could lead to stranded motorists, whereas larger batteries would give more chance of reaching power.

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#132424

Postby TUK020 » April 16th, 2018, 7:07 am

Probably an earlier adopter segment of inductive pick up will be electric buses
- defined routes, some of which are bus lane only (easier to dig up?), so less capital investment
- greater value, charge top up helps get bus to full shift without excessive battery load
- simpler model for charging (sorry, mean payment) for electricity
I believe some experimental work has been going on in Cambridge to try out concept

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#132458

Postby odysseus2000 » April 16th, 2018, 9:27 am

Qualcomm have a system under development:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new- ... ectric-car

One issue that comes to mind is how will such systems cope with sleeping police men, or debris on the road e.g leaves or snow.

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#132674

Postby bruncher » April 16th, 2018, 10:24 pm

Is the hydrogen fuel cell car definitely written off?

There is something appealing about the freedom and relative independence of filling up a tank and not worrying for 600 miles, rather than planning and booking (it may soon be necessary) the next charging stop.

If more cars are electric and booking a charge is essential, the logistics are painful to think about. If a vehicle books a charge, pre-pays, but is 30 minutes late, and the next available slot is 10 hours later .......

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#132675

Postby bruncher » April 16th, 2018, 10:26 pm

Qualcomm have a system under development:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new- ... ectric-car

One issue that comes to mind is how will such systems cope with sleeping police men, or debris on the road e.g leaves or snow.


And in England, vandalism .....

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#132695

Postby gbjbaanb » April 17th, 2018, 12:06 am

bruncher wrote:Is the hydrogen fuel cell car definitely written off?

There is something appealing about the freedom and relative independence of filling up a tank and not worrying for 600 miles, rather than planning and booking (it may soon be necessary) the next charging stop.

If more cars are electric and booking a charge is essential, the logistics are painful to think about. If a vehicle books a charge, pre-pays, but is 30 minutes late, and the next available slot is 10 hours later .......


True, but then you're comparing it to charging up a car and not worrying for 300 miles instead. As car range is a big deal now, I'm sure battery technology will come on because they are used so much. In most cases, if you charge it overnight, it'll never have to be filled up at a fuel station ever again, though long-distance travel will be problematic unless you have a tiny petrol engine to charge on the go, and I think that's much more likely to be the best use-case.

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#132727

Postby PeterGray » April 17th, 2018, 9:10 am

True, but then you're comparing it to charging up a car and not worrying for 300 miles instead. As car range is a big deal now, I'm sure battery technology will come on because they are used so much. In most cases, if you charge it overnight, it'll never have to be filled up at a fuel station ever again

But probably well over 50% of the UK population will have difficulty charging overnight, unless you provide massive and very costly infrastructure to create charging points as effectively all parking spaces in public streets and car parks

though long-distance travel will be problematic unless you have a tiny petrol engine to charge on the go, and I think that's much more likely to be the best use-case.

You've just invented the hybrid!

Peter

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#132782

Postby odysseus2000 » April 17th, 2018, 12:13 pm

PeterGray
But probably well over 50% of the UK population will have difficulty charging overnight, unless you provide massive and very costly infrastructure to create charging points as effectively all parking spaces in public streets and car parks


What a business opportunity, very like the roll out of domestic electricity.

Several articles have talked about trip hazard of cables in residential streets, but if the chargers are inductive, there will be no wires to trip over and the charger will be invisible.

However, there are issues regarding water ingress and potential electrocution of pedestrians during e.g. heavy rain storms.

In my opinion such issues can be solved, but until there are proper long term trials we will not know.

Personally I don't think hydrogen has a chance, too expensive and too complicated an infra structure.

Hybrids are in my opinion too complicated to manufacture competitively to pure electric and I expect auto makers to abandon them.

Regards,

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#132787

Postby FredBloggs » April 17th, 2018, 12:32 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
PeterGray
But probably well over 50% of the UK population will have difficulty charging overnight, unless you provide massive and very costly infrastructure to create charging points as effectively all parking spaces in public streets and car parks


What a business opportunity, very like the roll out of domestic electricity.

Several articles have talked about trip hazard of cables in residential streets, but if the chargers are inductive, there will be no wires to trip over and the charger will be invisible.

However, there are issues regarding water ingress and potential electrocution of pedestrians during e.g. heavy rain storms.

In my opinion such issues can be solved, but until there are proper long term trials we will not know.

Personally I don't think hydrogen has a chance, too expensive and too complicated an infra structure.

Hybrids are in my opinion too complicated to manufacture competitively to pure electric and I expect auto makers to abandon them.

Regards,

Hence my case for buying National Grid medium to long term.

Hydrogen? Many problems with it presently, almost all commercial hydrogen is made in steam reformers from methane. Where does the carbon from the methane go? Yep, you guessed right. Into the atmosphere, perhaps via carbonated drink on the way. Hydrogen is also extremely dangerous for a couple of reasons - Firstly it leaks like crazy from anything you store it in, the molecules are so tiny you just can't keep the stuff on the inside. Secondly, hydrogen has a very wide explosive region in air, I have seen hydrogen set on fire by sunlight too. Presently, I think a hydrogen economy is fantasy land stuff. Even if we build huge nuclear reactors to provide enough power to generate the hydrogen by electrolysis, National Grid is going to win again as it will transmit the power from the nuke to the electrolysis plant. It simply isn't going to happen.

Given present and close to emerging technology, I see no realistic option other than mass electrification of road and rail transport (unless HMG changes their mind which is possible). With air transport in the medium to long term. How do you benefit from this as an investor? You buy National Grid. It just so happens NG is on sale at the present time and you get a great divi that pays for your electricity bill too.

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#137927

Postby odysseus2000 » May 9th, 2018, 9:32 pm

Estimate of US demand for electric cars:

https://www.thestreet.com/investing/ele ... yptr=yahoo

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#138129

Postby dspp » May 10th, 2018, 5:23 pm

bruncher wrote:Is the hydrogen fuel cell car definitely written off?

There is something appealing about the freedom and relative independence of filling up a tank and not worrying for 600 miles, rather than planning and booking (it may soon be necessary) the next charging stop.

If more cars are electric and booking a charge is essential, the logistics are painful to think about. If a vehicle books a charge, pre-pays, but is 30 minutes late, and the next available slot is 10 hours later .......


Basically yes, from what I can see. Battery technology has advanced far enough & fast enough to make that technology pathway irrelevant as far as I can see.
- dspp

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#138153

Postby odysseus2000 » May 10th, 2018, 8:03 pm

bruncher wrote:
Is the hydrogen fuel cell car definitely written off?

There is something appealing about the freedom and relative independence of filling up a tank and not worrying for 600 miles, rather than planning and booking (it may soon be necessary) the next charging stop.

If more cars are electric and booking a charge is essential, the logistics are painful to think about. If a vehicle books a charge, pre-pays, but is 30 minutes late, and the next available slot is 10 hours later .......
B

Basically yes, from what I can see. Battery technology has advanced far enough & fast enough to make that technology pathway irrelevant as far as I can see.
- dspp


Second that. There was never a commercial way to get the hydrogen nor one to build a fueling infra structure if somehow one got the hydrogen.

Fuel cells are an old technology, used e.g. On Apollo spacecraft if the 1960's. Not sure if they will see much further space use given battery technology & solar charging great advances in the last 50 years.

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#138165

Postby tjh290633 » May 10th, 2018, 8:42 pm

Thinking about renewable energy, my mind is drawn to producer gas, generated from vegetable matter like wood chips or charcoal. During WW2 buses were to be seen towing producer gas trailers.

I once did a study into the feasibility of using wood to generate producer gas to fire a float glass furnace. My calculations suggested that a 7km square patch of eucalyptus in Brazil, cropped on a 7 year cycle, could sustain the process. Coppicing would be an alternative. I must dig out the original paper.

TJH

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#138173

Postby odysseus2000 » May 10th, 2018, 8:59 pm

tjh290633
Thinking about renewable energy, my mind is drawn to producer gas, generated from vegetable matter like wood chips or charcoal. During WW2 buses were to be seen towing producer gas trailers.

I once did a study into the feasibility of using wood to generate producer gas to fire a float glass furnace. My calculations suggested that a 7km square patch of eucalyptus in Brazil, cropped on a 7 year cycle, could sustain the process. Coppicing would be an alternative. I must dig out the original paper.


Yes, there were lots of this type of technology used when oil was scare. The BBC War Time Farm (ww2) showed how to make a transport fuel from burning coal.

I am not sure whether solar & battery storage trumps all of this now. Clearly in a cloudy winter environment it wouldn't work that well, but in summer it would likely do very well. One could I suppose mix both technologies, but the sticking point might be labour. Could you get folk to crop or harvest fuel at reasonable rates? Suspect in the UK one would struggle but maybe possible in Brazil.

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Re: Cars are all going electric

#138177

Postby FredBloggs » May 10th, 2018, 9:20 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
tjh290633
Thinking about renewable energy, my mind is drawn to producer gas, generated from vegetable matter like wood chips or charcoal. During WW2 buses were to be seen towing producer gas trailers.

I once did a study into the feasibility of using wood to generate producer gas to fire a float glass furnace. My calculations suggested that a 7km square patch of eucalyptus in Brazil, cropped on a 7 year cycle, could sustain the process. Coppicing would be an alternative. I must dig out the original paper.


Yes, there were lots of this type of technology used when oil was scare. The BBC War Time Farm (ww2) showed how to make a transport fuel from burning coal.

I am not sure whether solar & battery storage trumps all of this now. Clearly in a cloudy winter environment it wouldn't work that well, but in summer it would likely do very well. One could I suppose mix both technologies, but the sticking point might be labour. Could you get folk to crop or harvest fuel at reasonable rates? Suspect in the UK one would struggle but maybe possible in Brazil.

Regards,

Perhaps the huge wind power capacity being installed will go somewhere towards mitigating the night times and the dull winter days. Nuclear and CCGT still have a base load role to play and increasingly, open cycle GTs and diesel farms too. For certain the energy mix going forward is going to be very, very different to anything any of us imagined as recently as five to ten years ago.


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