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Crypto currency endeavours

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GoSeigen
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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#103650

Postby GoSeigen » December 12th, 2017, 3:45 pm

justfisk wrote:A positive for Bitcoin is that it is beginning to force people to ask the question of "What is money" and for us to compare it to other forms of what we have in place today. Comparing consumption rates:

Global cash and coins - 11 terawatt-hours per year
Gold mining alone - 132 terawatt-hours
Bitcoin - 8.27 terawatt-hours per year
US Data Centers alone consume over 64 terawatt-hours per year - should we shutdown the internet because of this?

With that comparison in mind, Bitcoin appears to compare quite favourably with the competition. I share here an article of interest:
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... tics-think

thanks,
JF


Where did you get that figure of 132TWh for gold? Please link to the primary source.


Those are not the competition though. Bitcoin does nothing of any value except make a few people feel they've got rich quick. Bitcoin is only capable of c400k transactions per day. Without paying huge fees it is now taking many hours, even days to get a transaction processed. That's without mentioning the hidden energy cost of the transactions.

Traditional financial transactions cost pennies per transaction, transactions complete almost instantly, and literally hundreds of billions of transactions complete every day. So bitcoin would have to scale up a million times to get anywhere near traditional transactions.


GS

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#103764

Postby justfisk » December 12th, 2017, 9:07 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
justfisk wrote:A positive for Bitcoin is that it is beginning to force people to ask the question of "What is money" and for us to compare it to other forms of what we have in place today. Comparing consumption rates:

Global cash and coins - 11 terawatt-hours per year
Gold mining alone - 132 terawatt-hours
Bitcoin - 8.27 terawatt-hours per year
US Data Centers alone consume over 64 terawatt-hours per year - should we shutdown the internet because of this?

With that comparison in mind, Bitcoin appears to compare quite favourably with the competition. I share here an article of interest:
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... tics-think

thanks,
JF


Where did you get that figure of 132TWh for gold? Please link to the primary source.


Those are not the competition though. Bitcoin does nothing of any value except make a few people feel they've got rich quick. Bitcoin is only capable of c400k transactions per day. Without paying huge fees it is now taking many hours, even days to get a transaction processed. That's without mentioning the hidden energy cost of the transactions.

Traditional financial transactions cost pennies per transaction, transactions complete almost instantly, and literally hundreds of billions of transactions complete every day. So bitcoin would have to scale up a million times to get anywhere near traditional transactions.


GS


The 132TWh has been referenced on several websites and has not been disputed. While looking for primary source i came across this citation from wikipedia
"Gold extraction is also a highly energy intensive industry, extracting ore from deep mines and grinding the large quantity of ore for further chemical extraction requires nearly 25 kW·h of electricity per gram of gold produced". The wikipedia entry also cited the hazardous waste and destruction of aquatic life and the ecosystem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold#Pollution

Bitcoin does offer something of value. It offers an open Network that is uncensoreable, Neutral, Global and open to anyone anywhere in the world - without anyone in charge. Without an Authority to decline anyone by virtue of age, race, creed or political affiliation.

You are right about the current perceived limits and challenges of Bitcoin.
The transaction limits as well as high fees are the cause of the scaling debates that are well known within the industry and in fact was the very trigger of the "civil war" that played itself out these past few years. The conflict was not over a lack of scaling options but rather one of how best to scale which in turn decides what Bitcoin is. (Ironically, the restriction of the size of blocks to 1MB which has led to the symptoms of delays and high fees was self-imposed in 2011, years after Bitcoins creation.)
1 camp thinking the best way to scale was by removing the arbitrary restriction per block, losing out to the camp thinking that the creation of other secondary layers around the protocol was the more secure and safer way to proceed.
The thinking that the Bitcoin protocol itself should be a fast low-fee payment system lost out to the camp seeing the protocol more as a settlement layer for the faster, light weight, more efficient channel built into the secondary layers around it. Now that the debate is resolved, the expectation is that the technology innovations that had been stalled in the past few years can proceed. (Innovations such as the Lightening Network may be around the corner. )
The point is that with technology, it is common place to encounter scaling issues.
The internet in the 90's had similar scaling problems. People scoffed at using email on the Internet, then using images, then watching streaming video before most of the world was on dial-up modems. Scaling by building fatter Ethernet cables lost out to the revolutionary Fibreoptic Networks we have today.
The technology space would always encounter scaling problems, and it would not be silly to bet that we would always overcome scaling issues in innovative ways as we hit them. We have done it before and continue to do it on an exponential scale. In the internet age we are in today, it might be argued that Bitcoin is built for scaling better/faster than the competition.
With Bitcoin, the question was how to scale without sacrificing its fundamental trustless principles, safely and securely.
In comparison, I admit Central Banks have no scaling problems, they just print more money! Do they care about how safely and how securely they print while considering long term impact? Do they care about inflation or asset bubble creation in the long term, or just quick fixes to immediate political problems? How successful has their Central Planning been over the decades?

JF

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#103805

Postby GoSeigen » December 13th, 2017, 12:09 am

justfisk wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
Where did you get that figure of 132TWh for gold? Please link to the primary source.

GS


The 132TWh has been referenced on several websites and has not been disputed. While looking for primary source i came across this citation from wikipedia
"Gold extraction is also a highly energy intensive industry, extracting ore from deep mines and grinding the large quantity of ore for further chemical extraction requires nearly 25 kW·h of electricity per gram of gold produced". The wikipedia entry also cited the hazardous waste and destruction of aquatic life and the ecosystem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold#Pollution

[...]
JF


Thanks JF, I also failed to find sources for the numerous mentions of the figure. The wiki link is useful.

I don't think I need to add to the remaining points. I just feel many bitcoin people, from SN onwards, hold certain misconceptions about money, an example being the suggestion that scaling up monetary transactions requires money printing -- it doesn't. Monetary transactions scale up almost costlessly.

GS

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#103835

Postby JMN2 » December 13th, 2017, 8:42 am

Mark Cuban https://youtu.be/PAcZPUjLdf4 thinks bitcoin is a collectable.

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#103919

Postby odysseus2000 » December 13th, 2017, 2:10 pm

Thanks JMN2, for the Mark Cuban video, outstandingly interesting, useful & motivational.

Regards,

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#103991

Postby JMN2 » December 13th, 2017, 7:57 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Thanks JMN2, for the Mark Cuban video, outstandingly interesting, useful & motivational.

Regards,


thanks, two themes stuck to my mind. AI designing and planning everything from plumbing and electrical work to interior, we all know about legal work being done by AI but say how quickly an IKEA new megashop could be planned (perhaps they already are)
and
someone's job being just to walk a child to school and back, or as in Japan, polishing handrails.

It's always interesting to realise how simply and in a practical manner billionaires think about investment and economy.

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#104012

Postby odysseus2000 » December 13th, 2017, 9:41 pm

Another view on crypto currencies with a long historical intro:

https://masterinvestor.co.uk/economics/ ... 9-34902905

Regards,

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#112131

Postby odysseus2000 » January 20th, 2018, 4:21 pm

This New York Times article was cited by the reformed Broker, now CEO of his wealth management firm, as some thing not to miss regarding crypto currencies, suggesting that it is the block chain not the frenzy over bitcoins price that matters. I found it fascinating as it expands on many of the ideas around block chains & about how large corporations have made a huge fortune from very small aspects of the Internet that they have magnified with enormous power in contrast to GPS. I strongly recommend it as a good, useful & interesting read:

https://nyti.ms/2FGOzYh

Arthur

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#119305

Postby odysseus2000 » February 20th, 2018, 2:21 pm

Interesting letter from the CEO of riot, a company that was attacked by cnbc last week, sending it well down:

https://www.riotblockchain.com/news-med ... der-update

I have no idea if Riot is a scam or if the CEO is genuine.

However, the letter is interesting in terms of what they are doing in the block chain eco system.

Regards,

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#230429

Postby odysseus2000 » June 18th, 2019, 12:18 pm

Facebook to launch crypto currency:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... ansactions

This is quite fascinating. Facebook is dirt cheap if this catches on, but...

Regards,

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#230445

Postby GoSeigen » June 18th, 2019, 1:03 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Facebook to launch crypto currency:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... ansactions

This is quite fascinating. Facebook is dirt cheap if this catches on, but...

Regards,


Not really relevant as will not use crypto-style public DLT (or PoW). I'd view this as a paypal-style product if capable of high transaction throughput (but: this opinion only based on a quick reading of the article).


GS

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#230531

Postby tjh290633 » June 18th, 2019, 5:19 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:Facebook to launch crypto currency:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... ansactions

This is quite fascinating. Facebook is dirt cheap if this catches on, but...

Regards,


Not really relevant as will not use crypto-style public DLT (or PoW). I'd view this as a paypal-style product if capable of high transaction throughput (but: this opinion only based on a quick reading of the article).


GS

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the relevance of Dave Lee Travis and Prisoner of War?

GoSeigen
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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#230544

Postby GoSeigen » June 18th, 2019, 5:44 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:Facebook to launch crypto currency:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... ansactions

This is quite fascinating. Facebook is dirt cheap if this catches on, but...

Regards,


Not really relevant as will not use crypto-style public DLT (or PoW). I'd view this as a paypal-style product if capable of high transaction throughput (but: this opinion only based on a quick reading of the article).


GS

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the relevance of Dave Lee Travis and Prisoner of War?


Heh, we're a few decades removed from all that!

Distributed Ledger Technology and Proof of Work -- "innovations" popularised by bitcoin.


GS

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#230590

Postby tjh290633 » June 18th, 2019, 9:07 pm

In those immortal words, I am sure that they are the sole topic of discussion in the bars of Barnsley.

However, I am under the impression that the technology is called Blockchain, and that bitcoin is but one user of it.

TJH

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#230658

Postby PeterGray » June 19th, 2019, 9:05 am


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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#230694

Postby odysseus2000 » June 19th, 2019, 10:34 am



IMHO, that is good!

I like to use the FT has a contrarian indicator in anything that involves tech or emotion, although they are good for balance sheet stuff.

Regards,

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#337544

Postby odysseus2000 » September 2nd, 2020, 8:35 am

China launches official crypto currency, minimum deposit is 250 Euro:

*****DELETED*****

Regards,

Moderator Message:
WARNING - APPEARS TO BE A SCAM - URL DELETED, dspp

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#337559

Postby GrahamPlatt » September 2nd, 2020, 9:36 am

odysseus2000 wrote:China launches official crypto currency, minimum deposit is 250 Euro:

*******DELETED*****

Regards,


Firefox:

“ Did Not Connect: Potential Security Issue

.... Websites prove their identity via certificates. Firefox does not trust this site because it uses a certificate that is not valid for http://www.reverent-hamilton-c136fa.netlify.app. The certificate is only valid for the following names *.netlify.com, netlify.com”

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#337563

Postby GrahamPlatt » September 2nd, 2020, 9:48 am

On top of which, going onto Forbes.com and searching for “China Officially Backs a CryptoCurrency” - no results.

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Re: Crypto currency endeavours

#337568

Postby Mike4 » September 2nd, 2020, 9:55 am

odysseus2000 wrote:China launches official crypto currency, minimum deposit is 250 Euro:

*****DELETED*****

Regards,


Following your link and considering gambling some pocket change on this, it took me to invcentre.com

A brief google of invcentre.com convinced me my cash is better off in the biscuit tin under my bed.

Going back to your link, surely this URL is a fake given it claims to be a Forbes page. And they can't spell Sir Richard Branson's name....


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