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Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

Financial discussion for any financial queries for Expats
JoyofBrex8889
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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#226055

Postby JoyofBrex8889 » June 1st, 2019, 5:54 pm

I was in Penang about three months ago and had a good time. Can confirm busy, hot, sweaty and fun. It is a fascinating place, modern but with a colonial era centre, a little gritty in places (is there any part of Malaysia that isnt?): quite historic by Far East standards. Highlight of the trip for me was an hour spent roaming the superficially quite nondescript Protestant Cemetery: Some great heroes of the East India Company and Royal Navy ended their days in Georgetown, and it was fun for this history buff to ponder their extraordinary adventures and inevitable death at the hands of either the natives in a blaze of glory or malaria. The mozzies were doing their best to dish out the same fate to me that day, but thats all part of the fun!

The food was memorably fabulous, but then again, great "makan" is a feature of Malaysian life just about everywhere I have travelled!

The local economy appeared to be roaring: tech firms seem to be clustered around there with quite a few manufacturing concerns around Butterworth.

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232252

Postby jaizan » June 26th, 2019, 11:56 pm

I see a lot of talk about not being able to move ISAs.

I imagine the marxists would abolish ISAs, which would be a definite trigger to emigrate.
Most of my assets within the ISA are in funds invested outside the UK, but I still need to liquidate the whole lot an move it abroad before they have introduced currency controls. What is ideally needed is an ISA that's already offshore, but presumably that's against the rules.

For the SIPP, I need to rely on getting my 25% tax free lump sum out if I hit 55 before they remove that perk.

I need to increase the percentage of my pot already abroad from 6 to 10%. It's difficult to go too fast, considering assets in an ISA need to stay there for now and capital gains issues on the rest.

Ideally I would also get a second passport, but I don't have any cheap options via foreign grandparents & my net worth isn't high enough to put some money into a poor investment in order to get an "investor visa" somewhere.

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232347

Postby Lootman » June 27th, 2019, 2:36 pm

jaizan wrote:I see a lot of talk about not being able to move ISAs. I imagine the marxists would abolish ISAs, which would be a definite trigger to emigrate.

Personally I doubt that ISAs would be immediately and totally abolished even if Labour had a big majority and (thinks it has) a mandate for a leftwards lurch. There are millions of people with relatively small ISAs who currently therefore have no need to report investment income to the taxman. There would be a large increase in HMRC workload if those millions suddenly had to report their dividends and gains, for not much revenue reward for the government, at a time when many other tax changes would be happening.

As always Labour would instead highlight the alleged injustice of those who are fairly well off and are sheltering large sums from tax via ISAs, which of course is many of us here. The Left loves to carve people up into distinct and conflicting classes of people on a "them and us" basis. So I'd expect changes that limit the ability of those with large ISAs to continue to enjoy high tax-free incomes.

That might take the form of capping contributions or portfolio size, applying a minimum tax on ISA income, or taking away other allowances or reliefs in some proportion.

Given also that ISA providers currently do no reporting of ISA income and gains for tax purposes, there would also have to be some delays in getting that set up, all of which would give investors time to sell up (presumably tax-free since tax changes are generally not retrospective) and salt that away overseas as necessary.

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232358

Postby GoSeigen » June 27th, 2019, 4:20 pm

jaizan wrote:I see a lot of talk about not being able to move ISAs.

I imagine the marxists would abolish ISAs, which would be a definite trigger to emigrate.
Most of my assets within the ISA are in funds invested outside the UK, but I still need to liquidate the whole lot an move it abroad before they have introduced currency controls. What is ideally needed is an ISA that's already offshore, but presumably that's against the rules.

For the SIPP, I need to rely on getting my 25% tax free lump sum out if I hit 55 before they remove that perk.

I need to increase the percentage of my pot already abroad from 6 to 10%. It's difficult to go too fast, considering assets in an ISA need to stay there for now and capital gains issues on the rest.

Ideally I would also get a second passport, but I don't have any cheap options via foreign grandparents & my net worth isn't high enough to put some money into a poor investment in order to get an "investor visa" somewhere.


Wow strange interpretation of events.

The post 2010 governments have turned ISAs into a massive tax dodge for the wealthy. So their own fault if it's abolished -- should not have been so greedy. Meanwhile they have been running a pantomime Brexit (in the Tories' own words) and the no-deal Brexit they crave will 100% result in capital controls. Tory capital controls not labour, unless they are booted out by then.

We're busy buying a property abroad, but to escape this shower, not the next one!!


GS

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232364

Postby Snorvey » June 27th, 2019, 4:32 pm

The post 2010 governments have turned ISAs into a massive tax dodge for the wealthy.

Really? Is 20k per annum really all that much? I mean the allowance was stuck at 7 grand-ish for long enough, so a decent lift was over due.

....and combine it with the attack on the 'wealthy's' (is a GP for example 'wealthy'?) pension funds, then overall they're probably worse off with savings schemes than before

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232371

Postby Lootman » June 27th, 2019, 5:04 pm

Snorvey wrote:The post 2010 governments have turned ISAs into a massive tax dodge for the wealthy.

Really? Is 20k per annum really all that much? I mean the allowance was stuck at 7 grand-ish for long enough, so a decent lift was over due.

....and combine it with the attack on the 'wealthy's' (is a GP for example 'wealthy'?) pension funds, then overall they're probably worse off with savings schemes than before

Yes, for the truly wealthy (say, 8-figure net worth or more), ISAs really don't make much difference because of the relatively small amounts that can be sheltered that way. Which is why in turn they need to use trusts, offshore companies and so on to mitigate the high rates of tax they would otherwise pay.

Whereas the poorest 50% or more could never muster 20K a year (or 40K a year if married) to put into an ISA each year anyway.

So ISAs are really of the most benefit to middle class professionals and retirees, and Labour would have to decide whether it wants to punish NHS doctors, school head teachers and pensioners in its zeal to redistribute wealth as part of its class warfare strategy.

If Labour's 2017 manifesto is anything to go by, Labour really wants to be seen as going after the very rich rather than the middle class. However, given that the very rich have 101 ways of avoiding anything Corbyn could do, it will probaby be the middle class, and perhaps everyone, who pays more instead.

The practical question here, with talk of a snap election, is whether to act now pre-emptively rather than wait and see, which could result in the door being slammed shut on us?

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232605

Postby dubre » June 28th, 2019, 5:24 pm

I wonder if the next government is more likely to be a LD coalition with the SNP & PC etc. How should we respond to the prospect of that? Extraordinary as this may seem.

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232611

Postby EssDeeAitch » June 28th, 2019, 7:03 pm

Lootman wrote:
If Labour's 2017 manifesto is anything to go by, Labour really wants to be seen as going after the very rich rather than the middle class. However, given that the very rich have 101 ways of avoiding anything Corbyn could do, it will probably be the middle class, and perhaps everyone, who pays more instead.


Another problem is that we don't really know how he defines poor, middle class and the rich. If Labours reaction to Boris's announcement on tax breaks for the £50,000 to £80,000 band is anything to go by, then an income of £30,000 to £40,000 may well be in his sights. But their reaction may of course be standard political hyperbole.

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232614

Postby Lootman » June 28th, 2019, 7:08 pm

EssDeeAitch wrote:
Lootman wrote:If Labour's 2017 manifesto is anything to go by, Labour really wants to be seen as going after the very rich rather than the middle class. However, given that the very rich have 101 ways of avoiding anything Corbyn could do, it will probably be the middle class, and perhaps everyone, who pays more instead.

Another problem is that we don't really know how he defines poor, middle class and the rich. If Labours reaction to Boris's announcement on tax breaks for the £50,000 to £80,000 band is anything to go by, then an income of £30,000 to £40,000 may well be in his sights. But their reaction may of course be standard political hyperbole.

True although didn't McDonnell state a while ago, in response to a direct qestion about who he regards as being "rich", that the number was £80,000 a year?

As I recall he earns about £83,000 a year. Ho hum.

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232651

Postby GoSeigen » June 28th, 2019, 11:39 pm

Snorvey wrote:The post 2010 governments have turned ISAs into a massive tax dodge for the wealthy.

Really? Is 20k per annum really all that much? I mean the allowance was stuck at 7 grand-ish for long enough, so a decent lift was over due.

....and combine it with the attack on the 'wealthy's' (is a GP for example 'wealthy'?) pension funds, then overall they're probably worse off with savings schemes than before



You're joking, right? How many people have £40,000 of disposable income to save each year in their household over and above their other tax-free contributions to pensions, children's accounts etc? That £40,000pa for a couple rather neatly matches the £50,000pa tax cut given to the poor people who only earn a million pounds or more. How they get by without needing a food bank I have no idea.

Now I consider myself a wealthy person (top 10% UK) but I actually withdraw from my ISAs every year. No way I can get even close to the 20k pa limit. It's really for those an order of magnitude wealthier.


GS

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232657

Postby Lootman » June 29th, 2019, 1:30 am

GoSeigen wrote:
Snorvey wrote:The post 2010 governments have turned ISAs into a massive tax dodge for the wealthy.

Really? Is 20k per annum really all that much? I mean the allowance was stuck at 7 grand-ish for long enough, so a decent lift was over due.

....and combine it with the attack on the 'wealthy's' (is a GP for example 'wealthy'?) pension funds, then overall they're probably worse off with savings schemes than before

You're joking, right? How many people have £40,000 of disposable income to save each year in their household over and above their other tax-free contributions to pensions, children's accounts etc? That £40,000pa for a couple rather neatly matches the £50,000pa tax cut given to the poor people who only earn a million pounds or more. How they get by without needing a food bank I have no idea.

Now I consider myself a wealthy person (top 10% UK) but I actually withdraw from my ISAs every year. No way I can get even close to the 20k pa limit. It's really for those an order of magnitude wealthier.

I cannot know how many others here fund that 40K a year ISA contribution but, in the case of my wife and I, we fund it through realising capital gains within the annual CGT allowance, the proceeds funding our ISAs. Doesn't require an income at all, as such.

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232783

Postby TahiPanasDua » June 29th, 2019, 6:53 pm

Lootman wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
Snorvey wrote:The post 2010 governments have turned ISAs into a massive tax dodge for the wealthy.

Really? Is 20k per annum really all that much? I mean the allowance was stuck at 7 grand-ish for long enough, so a decent lift was over due.

....and combine it with the attack on the 'wealthy's' (is a GP for example 'wealthy'?) pension funds, then overall they're probably worse off with savings schemes than before

You're joking, right? How many people have £40,000 of disposable income to save each year in their household over and above their other tax-free contributions to pensions, children's accounts etc? That £40,000pa for a couple rather neatly matches the £50,000pa tax cut given to the poor people who only earn a million pounds or more. How they get by without needing a food bank I have no idea.

Now I consider myself a wealthy person (top 10% UK) but I actually withdraw from my ISAs every year. No way I can get even close to the 20k pa limit. It's really for those an order of magnitude wealthier.

I cannot know how many others here fund that 40K a year ISA contribution but, in the case of my wife and I, we fund it through realising capital gains within the annual CGT allowance, the proceeds funding our ISAs. Doesn't require an income at all, as such.


We fund our ISAs by transfers from taxable accounts. No cash involved (at this stage)

TP2.

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232798

Postby AJC5001 » June 29th, 2019, 9:10 pm

Lootman wrote:I cannot know how many others here fund that 40K a year ISA contribution but, in the case of my wife and I, we fund it through realising capital gains within the annual CGT allowance, the proceeds funding our ISAs. Doesn't require an income at all, as such.


TahiPanasDua wrote:We fund our ISAs by transfers from taxable accounts. No cash involved (at this stage)

TP2.


That begs the question of where these existing non-ISA amounts have come from.
Perhaps the original should have said " How many people have £40,000 of disposable income to save each year in their household over and above their other tax-free contributions to pensions, children's accounts etc? or have already accumulated excess other funds to transfer into an ISA."

Just considering income seems to be missing the point.

Adrian

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232807

Postby tjh290633 » June 29th, 2019, 10:25 pm

AJC5001 wrote:Just considering income seems to be missing the point.

Adrian

In my case, much of the money that I invested came from maturing endowment policies of one sort or another.

TJH

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232883

Postby digitaria » June 30th, 2019, 11:44 am

GoSeigen wrote:We're busy buying a property abroad, but to escape this shower, not the next one!!


GoSeigen - where are you moving to?

We UK dwellers of reasonable means should take a moment to consider how generous the UK system is, in comparison to the rest of Europe. The ISA is a gift to anyone who can afford to tuck away a few thousand each year, especially if acting as a couple, when allowances are doubled. Miniscule tax havens aside, there can be few other European jurisdictions in which you can make a modest pile, retire and then live off the proceeds virtually tax free, in the way that you can in the UK (by way of counterbalance, we have rubbish weather and absurdly high property taxes).

If a Corbyn government were to abolish ISAs, it would, for me, change the equation competely. GoSeigen's suggestion that the Tories might impose capital controls as part of a no-deal Brexit is a chilling one.

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232914

Postby JamesMuenchen » June 30th, 2019, 2:21 pm

digitaria wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:We're busy buying a property abroad, but to escape this shower, not the next one!!


GoSeigen - where are you moving to?

We UK dwellers of reasonable means should take a moment to consider how generous the UK system is, in comparison to the rest of Europe. The ISA is a gift to anyone who can afford to tuck away a few thousand each year, especially if acting as a couple, when allowances are doubled. Miniscule tax havens aside, there can be few other European jurisdictions in which you can make a modest pile, retire and then live off the proceeds virtually tax free, in the way that you can in the UK (by way of counterbalance, we have rubbish weather and absurdly high property taxes.

Very true.

In Germany there are no tax efficient savings at all. Just pensions, which have such low returns there's basically nothing to tax anyway.

Capital gains are taxed at 25% with an annual allowance of €1200 (IIRC). Your account provider deducts it automatically and you have to claim it back if you're within your allowance.

And our property taxes are also absurdly high. About 5% when you buy plus an annual land tax. There's also a legally mandated 3.5% for the estate agent, paid by the buyer.

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232943

Postby scrumpyjack » June 30th, 2019, 3:56 pm

I recall the £50 foreign exchange travel allowance back in the '70s under Labour. Even my old Aunt who was very left wing and of absolutely impeccable morals, had to take a lot of cash in her suitcase in order to visit her son in the USA as the trip would have been impossible under the £50 limit. She was terrified about her law breaking!

Hopefully Corbyn won't go that far with exchange controls!

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#232949

Postby GoSeigen » June 30th, 2019, 4:46 pm

digitaria wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:We're busy buying a property abroad, but to escape this shower, not the next one!!


GoSeigen - where are you moving to?

We UK dwellers of reasonable means should take a moment to consider how generous the UK system is, in comparison to the rest of Europe. The ISA is a gift to anyone who can afford to tuck away a few thousand each year, especially if acting as a couple, when allowances are doubled. Miniscule tax havens aside, there can be few other European jurisdictions in which you can make a modest pile, retire and then live off the proceeds virtually tax free, in the way that you can in the UK (by way of counterbalance, we have rubbish weather and absurdly high property taxes).

If a Corbyn government were to abolish ISAs, it would, for me, change the equation competely. GoSeigen's suggestion that the Tories might impose capital controls as part of a no-deal Brexit is a chilling one.



It was slightly tongue in cheek. We are going abroad but intend to keep a foot in each place. In general one has to go where one will be accepted (if one of the rich/privileged people who have such a choice). In my case I have the right to permanent residence in South Africa and have family there so have made a property investment there.

Agree very much that the UK is something of a tax haven -- why else would the rich flotsam of other countries want to flock over here, where they can deposit their dirty money and come and go freely, while barely contributing anything? Lucky they are wealthy and therefore deserving of our generosity!


I have lived through a no-deal exit from an economic union and am under no illusion as to how painful it could be.


GS

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#233143

Postby Gan020 » July 1st, 2019, 1:18 pm

The purpose of these generous ISA limits is to bring Trust and offshore money back into the UK and make it visible in the tax system.

Trusts pay tax however well they are set up. Tax's within Trusts are significantly higher than zero in ISA's but imho there is alot of tax abuse in Trusts partly through lack of awareness, partly through deliberate actions. (I used to know someone who placed all his trades through an offshore account and when he repatriated the profits "forgot" to tell HMRC). HMRC don't have the time to check everybody.

But the thing is once all those £40k's are in ISA's they don't avoid inheritance tax unless you manage that problem away in later life. So, it seems like the government are being very generous but it's all calculated to bring them in more money. Both labour and conservative are following this path so I wouldn't expect it to change, BUT Corbyn and his chancellor may not be on the ball enough to grasp this is what is going on.

The 40k ISA limits have changed my life and enabled me to retire much earlier. Bit by bit I'm transferring my wealth which was subject to tax inside ISA's. It makes a huge difference when each year it's 20% tax less to pay on savings income but probably more importantly there's no CGT to pay either.

Eventually I see it being capped in some way as I see BPR being capped on AIM shares. Not for a long time though. At £40k a year for a couple I would have thought the amount of money heading into ISA's will have already started falling as the number of people with sufficient wealth able to do this year after year must be running out. I must go and check the numbers.

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Re: Leaving UK to avoid a Corbyn government!?

#233186

Postby Lootman » July 1st, 2019, 3:47 pm

Gan020 wrote:The purpose of these generous ISA limits is to bring Trust and offshore money back into the UK and make it visible in the tax system.

But the thing is once all those £40k's are in ISA's they don't avoid inheritance tax unless you manage that problem away in later life. So, it seems like the government are being very generous but it's all calculated to bring them in more money. Both labour and conservative are following this path so I wouldn't expect it to change, BUT Corbyn and his chancellor may not be on the ball enough to grasp this is what is going on.

Yes, I have long suspected that the generous tax provisions of both ISAs and owning your primary residence (PPR) both exist for a specific and devious purpose. It is to tempt people into retaining them until death, whereupon a 40% charge will apply in terms of IHT - quite possibly more tax than would have been charged with equivalent assets that were not tax-sheltered.

Moreover, upon death all unrealised capital gains are wiped out anyway, so the CGT savings of ISAs and PPRs could be illusory.

What this indicates to me is that a sound IHT strategy might be to actually bite the bullet and liquidate these favoured assets at some age, enjoy the freedom from CGT whilst you are still alive, and then redeploy those assets in a more IHT-friendly form.

In that context, the prospect of a "frail" Corbyn just accelerates what might be a smart move anyway. Even under the Tories, IHT is a wealth destroyer.


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