Claiming NI credit for years worked overseas (in countries with a UK agreement)

[dingdong]

Hi...

Back in 1996 I lived and worked in Canada for 2 years and paid into the Canadian government equivalent of national insurance.

The Canadian government website says there is an agreement between Canada and the UK such that..

"The Consolidated Arrangements allow residents of the United Kingdom (U.K.) to use certain periods of confirmed residence in Canada as if they were periods of contribution to the U.K. National Insurance Scheme in order to determine eligibility to U.K. social security benefits"


Does anyone know what I would need to do to have these two years credited to my UK national insurance record. I've contacted the DWP international pension service more than once over the years but have never received a response to the query.

[mc2fool]

Hmmm ... I always found the International Pension Centre pretty helpful. Mind you, that was a few years ago. Have you tried phoning them?

Anyway, I have no knowledge of the UK-Canada treaty but there's something in your quote that reminds of the UK-USA treaty of which I have a little knowledge. I spent four years working in the USA and normally (as in the UK) you have to clock up 10 years of contributions there to get any pension at all. However, under the UK-USA treaty I could apply my many-more-than-that UK years to the US system to get over their 10 year eligibility criterion there, and so I get a US pension.

The UK years only count for eligibility though, not towards the amount, so I only get a four-years-worth amount from the US, but it's better than the zilch I'd have got otherwise. The treaty is reciprocal so US years can be applied to get over the UK 10 year eligibility criterion (but again not to amount), but I had enough for that already.

So, before chasing DWP too much I'd find out exactly what the treaty gives you. If it's like the UK-USA treaty and you already have more than 10 years in the UK it won't help you -- in the UK at least, although you may be able to get a beer-money pension from Canada.

If you can't easily find answers to that (and/or what do I need to do to? questions) you could try calling the Canadian embassy in London; I imagine that, like the London US embassy, they have a whole department for it.

Finally, while I appreciate (and would encourage) the desire to know as much as possible in advance, UK side at least you shouldn't need to do anything beforehand; when you apply for your UK state pension the form includes questions about other countries you've worked in and details thereof (dates, social security numbers, etc) and if it's going to make any difference DWP will automatically contact those countries and apply any applicable benefit. (They will not, however, apply for a foreign pension for you; you have to do that yourself).

Finally finally, do you have a UK state pension forecast? If not do get one. Start here: https://www.gov.uk/check-state-pension

[dingdong]

Thanks so much - I'll do some more digging.

I guess the reason for my investigation is that I'm highly likely to want to pay for some NI years now the requirements has gone from 30 to 35 as I'm planning to retire early and will be a few years short.

If I can avoid paying for 2 of those from using my Canada years then that will obviously be worth doing (especially given the difference in cost for covering a year between 1995 and now!).

I'll try calling the DWP in the first instance to understand the process for Canada.

[mc2fool]

I guess the reason for my investigation is that I'm highly likely to want to pay for some NI years now the requirements has gone from 30 to 35 ...

A common misconception. For anyone that has some pre-2016 qualifying years the situation is much more complex.

Your very first step, if you haven't already, is to get a state pension forecast and post all of the figures from it here and let's see...

[dingdong]

Thanks.

My contributions currently look like this... with the 3 years of incomplete contributions (2 of which I was in Canada)




I guess I'm just not clear on whether ....

a) Any canadian contributions would be transferred across and 'make complete' these years... and they would therefore then count as full years contribution for UK pension

b) Canada contributions would only ever be paid out as extra beer money from Canada.... and assuming I take early retirement now I should always pay the 800 a year for six years to ensure I have a full 35 years UK contributions record.

The pension helpdesk came back with the following which didn't really help me...
"As you are not yet state pension age we do not hold any records for you where we could update your details. Please contact HMRC by one of the methods below. They will update our National records which will update our systems closer to your pension due date"

[mc2fool]

My contributions currently look like this... with the 3 years of incomplete contributions (2 of which I was in Canada)
:
:
I guess I'm just not clear on whether ....

a) Any canadian contributions would be transferred across and 'make complete' these years... and they would therefore then count as full years contribution for UK pension

b) Canada contributions would only ever be paid out as extra beer money from Canada.... and assuming I take early retirement now I should always pay the 800 a year for six years to ensure I have a full 35 years UK contributions record.

When I said all the figures I meant all!

As I've already said, the "a full 35 years" is a common misconception and only necessarily applies to people with only 2016 onwards NI years. For anyone that has some pre-2016 qualifying years the situation is more complex and it's entirely possible that you might need more or less than 35 years for the full new state pension. If you search this forum for "starting amount" you'll get an idea of the various twists. E.g. viewtopic.php?p=498047#p498047 is one case.

I have no idea about the UK-Canada treaty in respect of your questions above and can only repeat my suggestion that you try calling the Canadian High Commission in London for info, as they're the ones, I suspect, most likely to be able to give you a quick and accurate answer.

Now, what's needed to figure out your exact situation is:

• The amount your online forecast says you'll get from your record , and when it's up to -- it'll say "Estimate based on your National Insurance record up to 5 April 202x" -- we need both the £ amount and the "x".
• Your Contracted Out Pension Equivalent (COPE) amount (you'll only have this if you were ever contracted out of SERPS/S2P).
• The number of full qualifying NI years you have up to and including 2015-16
• The number of full qualifying NI years you have from 2016-17 onward, inclusive.

Now, from the record you posted it looks like you have 23 pre-2016 years and 6 years after, yes? If so and if you can transfer in and fill some or all of those missing years in the 1990s from your Canadian contributions, then that would, indeed, boost your UK pension but I'd need all the above to work out by how much, and hence how many more years you'd have to get to reach the full new state pension amount (and it won't be what the online forecast is telling you).

OTOH, if you can't transfer in and fill some or all of those missing years from your Canadian contributions then it's much simpler: the "Forecast if you contribute another N years before 5 April 2041" in the online forecast is correct.

If you can transfer in the Canadian years I'm happy to do and explain the calculation to you, but I don't particularly have the inclination to do so until and unless you've found out if you can transfer in those years, so I'll await your discovery on that ....

[torata]

Now, what's needed to figure out your exact situation is:

• The amount your online forecast says you'll get from your record , and when it's up to -- it'll say "Estimate based on your National Insurance record up to 5 April 202x" -- we need both the £ amount and the "x".
• Your Contracted Out Pension Equivalent (COPE) amount (you'll only have this if you were ever contracted out of SERPS/S2P).
• The number of full qualifying NI years you have up to and including 2015-16
• The number of full qualifying NI years you have from 2016-17 onward, inclusive.

This and the other thread you refer to are very interesting reading, mc2fool. Thanks.

A quick query that's OT to the OP's specifics, but relates to your list above.

I've always assumed that the estimate (your first bullet point) is an accurate estimate from HMRC, but from your other three points it seems it's not.
Or should the first bullet point amount actually be equal to the calculations of the other three?
I'm interested as I contracted out for quite a number of years.

torata

[mc2fool]

Now, what's needed to figure out your exact situation is:

• The amount your online forecast says you'll get from your record , and when it's up to -- it'll say "Estimate based on your National Insurance record up to 5 April 202x" -- we need both the £ amount and the "x".
• Your Contracted Out Pension Equivalent (COPE) amount (you'll only have this if you were ever contracted out of SERPS/S2P).
• The number of full qualifying NI years you have up to and including 2015-16
• The number of full qualifying NI years you have from 2016-17 onward, inclusive.

This and the other thread you refer to are very interesting reading, mc2fool. Thanks.

A quick query that's OT to the OP's specifics, but relates to your list above.

I've always assumed that the estimate (your first bullet point) is an accurate estimate from HMRC, but from your other three points it seems it's not.
Or should the first bullet point amount actually be equal to the calculations of the other three?
I'm interested as I contracted out for quite a number of years.

No, the "Estimate based on your National Insurance record up to 5 April 202x" (where x is usually the most recent tax year but sometimes the year before) is an accurate figure for the NI record you've got (up to that date). The purpose of the rest is to figure out how it was arrived at in order to determine if it's worth filling any pre-2016 gaps (which the online forecast doesn't figure for you).

If you have no fillable pre-2016 gaps then no figuring is needed as the rest of what the online forecast says about what you could get with additional contributions tells you the whole story; hence the last two sentences in my previous post.

Aside from unusual cases, like (potentially) being able to transfer pre-2016 years in from other countries, the need for such calculation will go away soon, as it'll no longer be possible to fill pre-2016 years with voluntary NICs after 5-Apr-23.

[torata]

Thanks for making that clear, mc2fool

torata

[dingdong]

Thanks mc2fool

Oh I now see what you mean. I currently have 29 years of full contributions (including the full 5 from 2016-17 to 2021-22), and if I look at the pension forecast it states that I can only contribute four more years (which will be three once the current 22-23 tax year is added)... which is obviously less than 35.

My opted out COPE estimate is £21.04 a week.



I'll reach out to the Canadian High Commission as you suggest.... Thanks!

[mc2fool]

Oh I now see what you mean. I currently have 29 years of full contributions (including the full 5 from 2016-17 to 2021-22), and if I look at the pension forecast it states that I can only contribute four more years (which will be three once the current 22-23 tax year is added)... which is obviously less than 35.

My opted out COPE estimate is £21.04 a week.
:
I'll reach out to the Canadian High Commission as you suggest.... Thanks!

Ok, well with those figures I can tell at a glance that, as well as being contracted out for a period, you were obviously also contracted in for some period(s) and built up some Additional State Pension that went into your 2016 "starting amount" for the new state pension, which is why you don't need the full 35 years to get the full new state pension.

BTW, 2016-17 to 2021-22 is 6 years, and it's not that you "can" only contribute four more years, you can contribute for as many more years as you want, it's just that only 4 of them will increase your state pension. (Two, if you can get the Canadian ones transferred in. Do let us know!)