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Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

Any other investment discussions eg. peer to peer lending
odysseus2000
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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362283

Postby odysseus2000 » December 2nd, 2020, 4:05 pm

Lanark wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:With Bitcoin there is no ability to create extra coins and as such no capability for central banks to dilute existing holders.

However there is an infinite capacity for new digital currencies ready to usurp Bitcoin. When another coin appears which offers a bigger and sustained rise in value why would you stick with Bitcoin.
It hasnt happened yet, but there is plenty of time.


Yes, but you have first got to mine the coin, then you have to make it stand out from the plethora of "me-too'.

There have been many cases when traditional fiat currencies have changed value very quickly, often to the downside, but not always and yet the major currencies are what folk stick to.

Regards,

Bubblesofearth
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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362286

Postby Bubblesofearth » December 2nd, 2020, 4:10 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
Ok, explain then how something that is not a currency can be exchanged for a currency.

What is Bitcoin then?

Regards,


An asset. All assets, precious metals, cryptocurrencies, equities, real estate etc can be exchanged for currency.

Personally I would not like to have much of my investable wealth in either currencies or Bitcoin. I also don't think many wealth managers would attract customers if they advocated much of either.

BoE

odysseus2000
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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362288

Postby odysseus2000 » December 2nd, 2020, 4:14 pm

Bubblesofearth wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:
Ok, explain then how something that is not a currency can be exchanged for a currency.

What is Bitcoin then?

Regards,


An asset. All assets, precious metals, cryptocurrencies, equities, real estate etc can be exchanged for currency.

Personally I would not like to have much of my investable wealth in either currencies or Bitcoin. I also don't think many wealth managers would attract customers if they advocated much of either.

BoE


Yes, but the folk who did buy bitcoin a few years ago have made out like pirates.

Wealth managers who made this call have some nice marketing material.

Regards,

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362312

Postby Adamski » December 2nd, 2020, 5:06 pm

I got my tulips planted, get em in early before the frost hits. :lol: Tesla, Nio, Bitcoin, etc :roll: take your pick, why do they go up? they go up, because they're going up, nothing to do with the numbers.

Urbandreamer
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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362316

Postby Urbandreamer » December 2nd, 2020, 5:31 pm

Bubblesofearth wrote:An asset. All assets, precious metals, cryptocurrencies, equities, real estate etc can be exchanged for currency.

BoE


Don't feed the Trolls. Technically Bitcoin became a currency when it was used to pay for pizza over 10 years ago.

https://www.investopedia.com/news/bitco ... zza-order/

As a currency it's very poor, however claiming that it is not a currency because it's poor at the job is redefining the use of the word. Rai were used as a currency on Yap and you can't fit many of them in your pocket.

As I pointed out, paypal "an American company operating a worldwide online payments system..." is to accept payment in Bitcoin.

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362325

Postby Bubblesofearth » December 2nd, 2020, 6:16 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
As I pointed out, paypal "an American company operating a worldwide online payments system..." is to accept payment in Bitcoin.


Need to be a bit careful here. Paypal will allow purchase and sales of Bitcoin but any purchase of other items using Bitcoin would first involve converting those coins into relevant legal currency. So it's kind of a two-step process. But I agree it is a big step to a wider acceptance of Bitcoin.

Definition of exactly what constitutes a currency may be a little blurred but until I can pay my taxes in Bitcoin then I see it more akin to gold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency

Decentralized digital currencies, such as cryptocurrencies are not legal currency, strictly speaking, since they are not issued by a government monetary authority and are not legal tender. Many warnings issued by various countries note the opportunities that cryptocurrencies create for illegal activities, such as money laundering and terrorism.[6] In 2014 the United States IRS issued a statement explaining that virtual currency is treated as property for Federal income-tax purposes and providing examples of how longstanding tax principles applicable to transactions involving property apply to virtual currency.

BoE

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362329

Postby dealtn » December 2nd, 2020, 6:24 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:Whether Bitcoin is safe and suitable for widows and orphans is unknowable. What we do know is that Fiat currencies can not hold their value and that is not good for widows and orphans.


Sorry but why are we comparing bitcoin to fiat currencies? The value of bitcoin is measured in fiat currency terms so any value you think your bitcoin might have will also fall as the fiat currency's value falls.

And just to nip this one in the bud: Bitcoin is NOT a currency.

GS


Just like the value of $ might fall as the value of the fiat £ falls? O no hang on...

Urbandreamer
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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362354

Postby Urbandreamer » December 2nd, 2020, 6:58 pm

Bubblesofearth wrote:Definition of exactly what constitutes a currency may be a little blurred but until I can pay my taxes in Bitcoin then I see it more akin to gold.

BoE


Sorry, but you can't pay your UK taxes in $'s, or even for that matter in cash (as in 1p's, there is legislation preventing this).

That argument presumes that currency is simply a matter of UK state legislation. THERE IS NO OTHER CURRENCY THAN THE UK POUND IN A BANK, CASH IS NOT A CURRENCY!!!!!

Probably not quite what you meant, but did you think about what you were saying?

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362357

Postby Lootman » December 2nd, 2020, 7:02 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:Sorry, but you can't pay your UK taxes in $'s, or even for that matter in cash (as in 1p's, there is legislation preventing this).

So things have changed since this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_ ... _v_Haddock

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362361

Postby Midsmartin » December 2nd, 2020, 7:10 pm

I think the energy use is definitely a problem. Even if bitcoin mining uses renewables, that energy could otherwise be used elsewhere to charge batteries or whatever. Curtailing total power consumption is an important part of reducing environmental impact. It's easier to phase out fossil fuels if total power demand is not rising.

While bitcoin had a limited supply, each one can be subdivided into 100 million parts.

I own nearly one bitcoin that I got for a small amount fairly early on. I had my finger on buying what would now be worth millions, but thought better of it as it all felt a bit dodgy. Such is life!

Urbandreamer
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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362371

Postby Urbandreamer » December 2nd, 2020, 8:14 pm

Lootman wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:Sorry, but you can't pay your UK taxes in $'s, or even for that matter in cash (as in 1p's, there is legislation preventing this).

So things have changed since this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_ ... _v_Haddock


I fear so. I think that we will both agree that this is wrong, but it IS THE CASE.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/short ... -1p-and-2p

This might come as a surprise, but according to the Royal Mint, 1p and 2p coins are legal tender only if you are paying for something costing 20p or less: once you have amassed 21 or more 1p pieces, your coins contravene the Coinage Act 1971 if used in a single transaction. Even if you are buying penny sweets.


CASH is only a currency in appropriate amounts, above which point it ceases to be currency.

The point that I was making was that limiting currency to what the tax man (or the state) will accept is a very SERIOUS limitation upon the term. The tax man won't take currency current in other countries! Are they not currency? Are coins paid not currency? However the same argument can be made for UK cash. The tax man won't take it! It has to be translated into bank pounds. So as I emphasised, apparently the only currency is UK digital pounds, as that is what the tax man requires. At least by one argument.

NOT MINE!

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362462

Postby Bubblesofearth » December 3rd, 2020, 7:50 am

Urbandreamer wrote:
Bubblesofearth wrote:Definition of exactly what constitutes a currency may be a little blurred but until I can pay my taxes in Bitcoin then I see it more akin to gold.

BoE


Sorry, but you can't pay your UK taxes in $'s, or even for that matter in cash (as in 1p's, there is legislation preventing this).

That argument presumes that currency is simply a matter of UK state legislation. THERE IS NO OTHER CURRENCY THAN THE UK POUND IN A BANK, CASH IS NOT A CURRENCY!!!!!

Probably not quite what you meant, but did you think about what you were saying?


OK, if you don't like the UK slant how about - you can pay your taxes in whatever the legal currency is of the country you live in. Bitcoin is not a legal currency in any country. Just because Bitcoins can be converted very quickly and easily into legal currency does not make it a currency itself. There are plenty of countries where gold is accepted as payment for goods. In prisons cigarettes might get you what you want. Are they currencies?

To some extent I accept this is a question of how currency is defined and I can see how others are happy to see Bitcoin as a currency. It just doesn't work for me at this time. If it became adopted as a currency by Governments that would be a different matter.

BoE

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362472

Postby Urbandreamer » December 3rd, 2020, 8:34 am

Bubblesofearth wrote:OK, if you don't like the UK slant how about - you can pay your taxes in whatever the legal currency is of the country you live in. Bitcoin is not a legal currency in any country. Just because Bitcoins can be converted very quickly and easily into legal currency does not make it a currency itself. There are plenty of countries where gold is accepted as payment for goods. In prisons cigarettes might get you what you want. Are they currencies?

BoE


Well according to ecconomists, yes cigaretts and even fish* are a currency if used as such. Indeed you may think your argument about cigaretts a spurious joke, but tobacco WAS used as a currency.

https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/di ... acco-money
Because of the scarcity of specie, Virginia, Maryland, and North Carolina used tobacco as currency throughout most of the colonial period.


If, because we like to believe that only the UK counts, we limit things to the UK then there are "LETS".
I knew a solicitor who once accepted payment in "Bobbins".
https://www.letsf.org.uk/about-lets/let ... roduction/

Sorry, but it is the act of exchange for goods or services that makes something a currency, NOT if the government is willing to accept it as a tax. Hence the act of the offer of bitcoins for a pizza delivery and the acceptance of them makes bitcoin a currency.

*But once cigarettes were banned, prisoners needed a replacement currency and the 'mack' was deemed to be the best choice.....
https://fee.org/articles/how-a-fish-bec ... -currency/

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362543

Postby tjh290633 » December 3rd, 2020, 11:31 am

Urbandreamer wrote:Well according to ecconomists, yes cigaretts and even fish* are a currency if used as such. Indeed you may think your argument about cigaretts a spurious joke, but tobacco WAS used as a currency.

For a long time, Marlborough cigaretttes were very acceptable as pseudo-currency in Eastern Europe.

If you wanted a ride, holding out a packet of 20 Marlborough would get a near immediate response from any vehicle, from a lorry down to a government vehicle.

A US$5 bill would also work.

TJH

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362553

Postby stevensfo » December 3rd, 2020, 12:21 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:Well according to ecconomists, yes cigaretts and even fish* are a currency if used as such. Indeed you may think your argument about cigaretts a spurious joke, but tobacco WAS used as a currency.

For a long time, Marlborough cigaretttes were very acceptable as pseudo-currency in Eastern Europe.

If you wanted a ride, holding out a packet of 20 Marlborough would get a near immediate response from any vehicle, from a lorry down to a government vehicle.

A US$5 bill would also work.

TJH


I remember, many years ago, a story of how a teenage girl in a village was doing a lot of babysitting to earn extra money and started using one hour babysitting IOUs in shops. The IOUs then became part of the village currency. In our village, c.1975, there was a piano teacher who gave lessons to boys in exchange for a bit of work in her garden. The parents couldn't afford lessons, so it was an ideal situation. In Italy I was giving weekly English lessons to a girl doing the equivalent of A-levels in exchange for Italian lessons for our son, who had big problems with language at that time. Yet I also remember cases of people in the UK being stopped from helping each other with mutual child-care arrangements because it was apparently a financial transaction but without any cash.

I'm pretty sure that similar cases appeared around the country and were stamped out asap by HMRC to avoid losing VAT.

But where do you draw the line?

Steve

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362557

Postby PinkDalek » December 3rd, 2020, 12:26 pm

tjh290633 wrote:If you wanted a ride, holding out a packet of 20 Marlborough would get a near immediate response ...


Fake branding too! :lol:

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362558

Postby JohnB » December 3rd, 2020, 12:27 pm

BTW, HMRC require you to pay CGT on cryptocurrencies (or income tax if a miner), but do not consider them to be a currency. This means you need to keep detailed records on your transactions to demonstrate their CGT history. This would be very onerous if you bought fish and chips with them.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ndividuals

odysseus2000
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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362575

Postby odysseus2000 » December 3rd, 2020, 12:43 pm

JohnB wrote:BTW, HMRC require you to pay CGT on cryptocurrencies (or income tax if a miner), but do not consider them to be a currency. This means you need to keep detailed records on your transactions to demonstrate their CGT history. This would be very onerous if you bought fish and chips with them.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ndividuals


I found this sentence mildly hilarious:

Where HMRC considers that there is, or may have been, avoidance of tax, the analysis presented will not necessarily apply

Regards,

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362581

Postby Bubblesofearth » December 3rd, 2020, 12:49 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:

Sorry, but it is the act of exchange for goods or services that makes something a currency, NOT if the government is willing to accept it as a tax. Hence the act of the offer of bitcoins for a pizza delivery and the acceptance of them makes bitcoin a currency.



No need to apologise, you are merely stating your preferred definition.

BoE

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#375871

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » January 11th, 2021, 2:45 pm

Cryptoasset investing? Be prepared to lose the lot, warns watchdog
Last week, the price of Bitcoin, which has been in existence for 12 years, soared to over $40,000 - just short of £30,000.

AiY


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