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Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

How to buy, profit and invest in crypto currencies or NFTs

Do you own any cryptocurrency? If yes, what proportion of your assets is it worth?

Yes - less than 1%
17
12%
Yes - more than 1% but less than 5%
6
4%
Yes - more than 5% but less than 10%
3
2%
Yes - more than 10% but less than 20%
1
1%
Yes - more than 20% but less than 50%
0
No votes
Yes - more than 50%
2
1%
No
110
79%
 
Total votes: 139

absolutezero
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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#403647

Postby absolutezero » April 12th, 2021, 3:15 pm

seekingbalance wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
seekingbalance wrote:
And they are not materially different from many small cap shares I have done well in or not, have gone up massively or have gone bust, and many of them are mega cap behemoths that are bigger than most U.K. companies in size - Etherium is $248bn, Binance is $88bn, Cardano $41bn, Dot is $37bn, Uniswap is $18bn. The 50th biggest project is $2.5bn - solid FTSE 250 territory.

This is interesting.
So how do you decide whether to buy? Or when to sell?
If I was buying small company shares I have PE ratios, dividend yields, audited accounts, debt levels, EBITDA etc.

Do these crypto projects have equivalent numbers?
If so, how do you value them?
If not, how is it investing and not just gambling/speculation?


Good points all. Yes, there are equivalents, with metrics such as token float, staking levels, value of staked coins locked in the protocol, value of transactions on the platform, volume of transaction, volume of customers, volume of active customers, yield on stake, loan levels, collateralisation, utility value of the token, earnings, dilution rate, token burn rate. The code for any project will be audited, many times.

And just like there are a zillion different ways to value a company, these all have different meanings for different people, and arguably don’t mean much anyway. Sure, you can compare PEs - but how do you compare SSE with Scottish Mortgage, Amazon with Tesco, Lloyds with ITM power? You might like dividend yields, but are they real, are they sustainable in a pinch? You can look at CAPE ratios, Tobias Q, PYAD - all are fine until they are not, and arguably are fighting last decades’ war.


There is a huge difference between shares in listed companies and crypto.

It's very easy to compare, say, Tesco with Amazon etc.
They all have earnings (and usually profit). Actual cash they receive for services and goods they produce.
So it's easy to compare one share against another, irrespective of what the company actually does.
The companies are backed by something. Their earnings.

What is crypto backed by? Except what other people think it is worth.
You mention earnings but there are no earnings behind it. Nothing tangible.
Just 'proof of work' which tomorrow may disappear in a puff of smoke as people move on to the next fad.
Like the pound in your pocket, which is backed by no more than a promise to pay you in more pounds in your pocket -except that is backed by the British State.

As you may have gathered, I am a "crypto denier". I just don't see what the fuss is about.

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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#403651

Postby absolutezero » April 12th, 2021, 3:22 pm

seekingbalance wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
seekingbalance wrote:
You are right in that the exchanges are a potential weakness- but is that any different to a bank or an exchange like Robinhood, Halifax, ii?


Yes. Very different.
Banks and brokers in the UK have FSCS protection up to £85,000 of losses and regulation by the FSA.
Crypto exchanges only need to comply with money laundering regulations (KYC stuff). The rest is wild west.


Hence my point that all crypto can be taken off the exchanges and held in a private hard or soft wallet.

It's not that I'm bothered about. Once you have the Bitcoin then great. It's getting to that point that bothers me.

Since these exchanges are not regulated, there's nothing to stop them stealing the cash or claiming it never arrived in the exchange.
Yes. You could sue them (in theory) but some of the exchanges are based in parts of the world that are, shall we say, not friendly and/or have weak property rights.
One of them at least, I believe, is Chinese. Good luck suing them if something was to happen.

Let's say Governments wanted to cripple crypto in one easy step. All they would need to do is shut down the exchanges. Legislate them out of existence or apply a 150% transaction tax or whatever.
Then your money is trapped in the crypto system and you can't get it back out again.
That would be the end of that!
This won't happen with the stock exchanges. It's part of the system. Crypto isn't.

So this is my entire problem with the whole thing.
The exchanges are the weak spot and need regulating. But the proponents of crypto tend to be libertarian and don't want regulation.

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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#403707

Postby tjh290633 » April 12th, 2021, 7:29 pm

Moderator Message:
I have just deleted two acrimonious posts. Please keep your discussions civil and avoid ad hominem comments.

TJH

seekingbalance
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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#403916

Postby seekingbalance » April 13th, 2021, 3:29 pm

absolutezero wrote:
Since these exchanges are not regulated, there's nothing to stop them stealing the cash or claiming it never arrived in the exchange.
Yes. You could sue them (in theory) but some of the exchanges are based in parts of the world that are, shall we say, not friendly and/or have weak property rights.
One of them at least, I believe, is Chinese. Good luck suing them if something was to happen.

Let's say Governments wanted to cripple crypto in one easy step. All they would need to do is shut down the exchanges. Legislate them out of existence or apply a 150% transaction tax or whatever.
Then your money is trapped in the crypto system and you can't get it back out again.
That would be the end of that!
This won't happen with the stock exchanges. It's part of the system. Crypto isn't.

So this is my entire problem with the whole thing.
The exchanges are the weak spot and need regulating. But the proponents of crypto tend to be libertarian and don't want regulation.


To be clear - I am not some crypto nut, I am merely pointing out to people who want to understand more about crypto that this is a viable area for a risky punt and chance of big gains. How many more times I have to say this is not for all your money, I don’t know, but I’ll say it again. This is not for all of your money.

Just as buying art as an alternative risks that artist becoming a nobody, or buying whisky barrels could turn out to be a bad idea when China floods the market with all the whisky they have been making in secret for decades, or investing in land for the tax breaks the day before the government takes away the tax break are all risks, Crypto currencies as “alternative” investments are risky. Just as the world printing so much money that shares become worthless, as all the money the companies earn is worthless, is also a risk, or shares going too high and crashing 50% (surely, never happen, right?). Or smaller companies, with no profits, or even any earnings, priced to succeed, not succeeding.

There are no guarantees, and readily obvious risks. One thing I can guarantee, though, is that over the next few years “real” exchanges (if YouInvest, Halifax, Schwabb etc are real) will start to enable us to trade crypto, and just as other countries have done, I am pretty sure we will at some point allow indirect investment via ETFs - completely obviating the concern about exchanges. Just tomorrow the second biggest crypto exchange in the world is going public on the Nasdaq.

Also, to be clear - are you really, really saying that every single exchange in the world is going to go bust or be closed by their government, at the same time, literally on the same day? Coinbase, Crypto.com, Binance, Blockfi, Kraken, Bitrex, BitFinance, eToro, Bitfinex, Bitmex, CEX - just to names the ones I use or have considered, and that have “fiat” on ramps where you can cash in and out in “real” currencies - are all going to fail at the same time, and/or every country in the world bans crypto exchanges at the same time?

Okay, I guess that these are all indeed genuine risks, just as small companies not fulfilling their potential is a risk. But for every one to fail, every one to be closed, every one to be banned. I just don’t see it happening, and am okay with the risk for the small part of my funds that are tied up, let alone the small portion of my funds I actually committed, before every one of my crypto investments went up from between 2 and 16 times in the last year.

But hey, risky investments are not for everyone. I am a big fan of low cost trackers spread across countries, currencies and markets. Different industries, different risk profiles. Heck, I even have some government bonds funds, sadly, bearing in mind their returns recently. But I also have some watches, some small caps, a house, some micro caps, and even some EIS startup company investments and Private equity ETFs. Crypto is just another element.

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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#403919

Postby Lootman » April 13th, 2021, 3:37 pm

seekingbalance wrote:I am pretty sure we will at some point allow indirect investment via ETFs - completely obviating the concern about exchanges.

No need to wait for a Bitcoin ETF. Canada already has some:

https://www.etf.com/sections/features-a ... nopaging=1

VanEck has a regulatory filing with the US SEC awaiting approval. There is also a closed-end fund in the US for Bitcoin, ticker GBTC.

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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#403924

Postby seekingbalance » April 13th, 2021, 3:52 pm

absolutezero wrote:
There is a huge difference between shares in listed companies and crypto.

It's very easy to compare, say, Tesco with Amazon etc.
They all have earnings (and usually profit). Actual cash they receive for services and goods they produce.
So it's easy to compare one share against another, irrespective of what the company actually does.
The companies are backed by something. Their earnings.

What is crypto backed by? Except what other people think it is worth.
You mention earnings but there are no earnings behind it. Nothing tangible.
Just 'proof of work' which tomorrow may disappear in a puff of smoke as people move on to the next fad.
Like the pound in your pocket, which is backed by no more than a promise to pay you in more pounds in your pocket -except that is backed by the British State.

As you may have gathered, I am a "crypto denier". I just don't see what the fuss is about.


You seem to know a lot about Crypto to be such a denier!

Sure, Amazon and Tesco are (sort of) comparable, or rather they can be compared. But three years ago they could not be so easily compared, as Amazon had pretty much never made a profit, had a staggeringly different revenue and cost profile, and indeed have very different business drivers even now.

But while we are still being selective, remind me how you compare the other examples I cited - how do you compare SRT who have a great business story but never quite deliver, but might, just might get a load of big contracts before they run out of money, to a small cap gold miner who promises really hard that they have a great gold mine, if only all their plans go well and the gold price stays up, to IQE who have a great product but uncertain markets and high capex requirements to ramp up production to the next level, if demand stays high, to..... I can go on for ever with examples of small caps that people across the country and world invest in every day, with no real comparator metrics other than a business plan and a promise. And not just small caps - a good proportion of current mega caps have no profits, certainly a lot of American tech and biotech companies. But I can tell you, I’m glad I bought Apple when they were almost down and out in the early 2000s, Amazon before they were profitable, Tesla when Elon was throwing a wobbly and insulting cave divers and I for sure wish I had bought Netflix when they were in their 5th year without a profit, and I hope I’ll be glad in the future that I bought CRISPR and Exact Sciences.

I repeat - Crypto other than Bitcoin and Etherium, perhaps Binance, is like investing in small cap, micro cap, and has a similar risk profile as all these companies who have a business that may work and you’ll make 10x return, or they may stutter along for decades doing nothing, or they might go bust. If that is too much risk for you - stick with trackers and blue chips.

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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#403926

Postby seekingbalance » April 13th, 2021, 3:58 pm

Lootman wrote:
seekingbalance wrote:I am pretty sure we will at some point allow indirect investment via ETFs - completely obviating the concern about exchanges.

No need to wait for a Bitcoin ETF. Canada already has some:

https://www.etf.com/sections/features-a ... nopaging=1

VanEck has a regulatory filing with the US SEC awaiting approval. There is also a closed-end fund in the US for Bitcoin, ticker GBTC.


Yes, I have looked at these - I was meaning the U.K. when I said “we”.

Have you managed to buy any of them? I have looked, but none of my three brokers allow it, as they are non-UCITS and have no KID, and they don’t recognise the fund structure of the Grayscale trust. Same with ARK funds - the only way I have figured to buy them is via a CFD on eToro.

I note that Sweden also has three or four ETFs, but none of my brokers allows me to buy them either (YouInvest, Halifax, ii).

I sure would like to get a Bitcoin trust and an Etherium trust in my SIPP or ISA. And even more, I’d like to get a basket of smaller cryptos trust, when and if someone does one of those.

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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#403952

Postby Clitheroekid » April 13th, 2021, 4:59 pm

seekingbalance wrote:I’d like to get a basket of smaller cryptos trust, when and if someone does one of those.

No recommendation, but you can invest in a copy portfolio through e-toro, and there are a couple which invest in cryptos - https://www.etoro.com/discover/copyportfolios

Unfortunately, you may have missed the boat, as the main one is up an astonishing 951% over the last year.

Lootman wrote:
JohnB wrote:None, and I never will for environmental reasons.

Do you therefore also own no airlines, miners, oil and chemical companies, steel/metal processors or heavy industrial names?

The difference is that although airlines, miners etc do have a high environmental cost they also perform a useful function.

Cryptos serve no purpose other than facilitating the laundering on an industrial scale of the proceeds of crime and providing a source of gambling for people who don't know what else to do with their stimulus checks (sic).

They need to be either regulated or abolished.

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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#403964

Postby JuanDB » April 13th, 2021, 5:19 pm


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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#404008

Postby seekingbalance » April 13th, 2021, 8:38 pm



Thanks - I have Argo, but had never heard of KR1. Looks interesting.

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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#404011

Postby absolutezero » April 13th, 2021, 8:45 pm

seekingbalance wrote:To be clear - I am not some crypto nut, I am merely pointing out to people who want to understand more about crypto that this is a viable area for a risky punt and chance of big gains. How many more times I have to say this is not for all your money, I don’t know, but I’ll say it again. This is not for all of your money.

Indeed. You are no nut but you do seem well informed, and in the crypto world to us outsiders, that is valuable.
Just tomorrow the second biggest crypto exchange in the world is going public on the Nasdaq.

Bubble territory?
Also, to be clear - are you really, really saying that every single exchange in the world is going to go bust or be closed by their government, at the same time, literally on the same day? Coinbase, Crypto.com, Binance, Blockfi, Kraken, Bitrex, BitFinance, eToro, Bitfinex, Bitmex, CEX - just to names the ones I use or have considered, and that have “fiat” on ramps where you can cash in and out in “real” currencies - are all going to fail at the same time, and/or every country in the world bans crypto exchanges at the same time?

They don't need to. Just the UK authorities in my case.
Though I would not be surprised if, like when interest rates were cut after the 2008 financial crash, we see some some kind of global coordinated action.
Okay, I guess that these are all indeed genuine risks, just as small companies not fulfilling their potential is a risk. But for every one to fail, every one to be closed, every one to be banned. I just don’t see it happening, and am okay with the risk for the small part of my funds that are tied up, let alone the small portion of my funds I actually committed, before every one of my crypto investments went up from between 2 and 16 times in the last year.

But hey, risky investments are not for everyone. I am a big fan of low cost trackers spread across countries, currencies and markets. Different industries, different risk profiles. Heck, I even have some government bonds funds, sadly, bearing in mind their returns recently. But I also have some watches, some small caps, a house, some micro caps, and even some EIS startup company investments and Private equity ETFs. Crypto is just another element.

And that is the best way to see it, I think.

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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#404013

Postby absolutezero » April 13th, 2021, 8:52 pm

seekingbalance wrote:You seem to know a lot about Crypto to be such a denier!

Well. Quite. I read a lot.
Sure, Amazon and Tesco are (sort of) comparable, or rather they can be compared. But three years ago they could not be so easily compared, as Amazon had pretty much never made a profit, had a staggeringly different revenue and cost profile, and indeed have very different business drivers even now.

Easy. I can compare any two companies. Even in very different industries.
Show me the numbers.
But while we are still being selective, remind me how you compare the other examples I cited - how do you compare SRT who have a great business story but never quite deliver, but might, just might get a load of big contracts before they run out of money, to a small cap gold miner who promises really hard that they have a great gold mine, if only all their plans go well and the gold price stays up, to IQE who have a great product but uncertain markets and high capex requirements to ramp up production to the next level, if demand stays high, to..... I can go on for ever with examples of small caps that people across the country and world invest in every day, with no real comparator metrics other than a business plan and a promise.

Easy. No profit, none of my money goes anywhere near.
Putting my hard earned into some small cap that may or may not do well? That's not investing. it's speculating (or gambling if one is feeling uncharitable).
I put my money into those who have already won.
And not just small caps - a good proportion of current mega caps have no profits, certainly a lot of American tech and biotech companies. But I can tell you, I’m glad I bought Apple when they were almost down and out in the early 2000s, Amazon before they were profitable, Tesla when Elon was throwing a wobbly and insulting cave divers and I for sure wish I had bought Netflix when they were in their 5th year without a profit, and I hope I’ll be glad in the future that I bought CRISPR and Exact Sciences.

Best of luck. But for me, no profit, none of my money.
Huge PE ratios. No money!
I repeat - Crypto other than Bitcoin and Etherium, perhaps Binance, is like investing in small cap, micro cap, and has a similar risk profile as all these companies who have a business that may work and you’ll make 10x return, or they may stutter along for decades doing nothing, or they might go bust. If that is too much risk for you - stick with trackers and blue chips.

Indeed. It's all a bit tulip bulb for me.
My suspicion is the big money in crypto has been made now and any late entrants will get burnt fingers.

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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#404015

Postby seekingbalance » April 13th, 2021, 9:06 pm

Clitheroekid wrote:No recommendation, but you can invest in a copy portfolio through e-toro, and there are a couple which invest in cryptos - https://www.etoro.com/discover/copyportfolios

Unfortunately, you may have missed the boat, as the main one is up an astonishing 951% over the last year.

They need to be either regulated or abolished.


Thanks for the thoughts - I use eToro but have not looked at copying anyone. I had assumed it meant literally auto copying someone’s actual trades, which is absolutely not what I am after. I am looking for an ETF that tracks the top 70 (or whatever number) cryptos in one investment, that I can put in an ISA.

And, not being funny, but 951% - is that all? I am up way more than that in my crypto buys in the last year. One of the tokens in my portfolio is up 1600% during 2021 ! At least three are up well over 1000% since last June when I started. One that I did not buy but got some free (only $3 worth!) is up over 100 times since I got it.

And, with respect, many, many of the crypto projects absolutely perform useful functions. Just because you don’t like them does not make them illicit, or not useful. Christies sell art, but so does Chiliz, OMI, Wax, Vechain and many others. Activision and Electronic Arts sell computer games, but so do Decentraland, Wax and many others. Ticketmaster sells tickets to concerts and sporting events, but so does several blockchain systems, with much better security, resale prevention, pricing control. Moneycorp does currency exchange, at a price, but so do umpteen crypto projects, allowing exchange of currencies and crypto currencies at almost no cost, at very near to spot prices. Western Union allows people to send money home, for eye watering fees, Binance smart chain can do it for 1 cent a transaction.

Are Christies, Activision, Electronic Arts, Moneycorp all useless companies, with no utility? Is the blockchain that tracks carbon credits in a decentralised open ledger of no use? Is the internet useless? New blockchain driven sites are going to revolutionise many aspects of the internet, taking control away from the massive companies who sell your data for profit, and will allow content creators and users take control of their own interests.

All transaction on Bitcoin are on a decentralised, open source ledger, and can be tracked between wallets that are just as traceable as bank accounts, assuming every bank account is traceable and crooks are not smart enough to game the system.

Sure, some illegal activity happens, and in the past probably a lot more. Good job nobody ever laundered dollars or pounds eh, else we’d have to ban them.

(This is my last post on the subject)

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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#404069

Postby justfisk » April 13th, 2021, 11:55 pm

Bitcoin is perhaps the important invention since the internet.

Education
Perhaps you dont understand it, perhaps you've heard of it or read about it in your favorite Mainstream News organization.
If you do not "get it" yet, it is not too late!
Most of the World is still not exposed to it even though it is currently growing faster than the internet.
If you decide against owning this asset, you want to have made that decision from a position of knowledge as opposed to a making it from a position of hearsay.
If you do not own Bitcoin you should at the very least be educating yourself about it. Information travels asymmetrically even at this time. I am seeing a lot of antiquated talking points here from 5-9 years ago.
A lot has changed since then!

Life Changing
Owning Bitcoin can be life changing, as the depositors in Myanmar may now be finding out as I watch videos of them queuing up to access their own money from ATMs after strict limits were imposed. These people are seeking permission to their own property. Bitcoin is permissionless, Unconfiscatable (Hello Cyprus 2013!) and censorship resistant. Nothing else like it. Perhaps in the history of the World it is the only asset you really own on your own Terms.

Investing
As investors, Owning Zero Bitcoin is the wrong allocation regardless of risk Appetite.
Owning Bitcoin to your portfolio reduces risk. Bitcoin is the only asset that has a Sharpe ratio greater than 1!
The very early-adoptors got in a few years early, however getting a portion now gets you in with the so-called smart -money and institutions.
As more people learn about Bitcoin's merits, they would want to own some which in turn grows the Network which strengthens the Network which grows the value, which grows the Network....
As Halvings occur, scarcity is pre-programmed.

Macro
Fiat is wasteful and inflationary.
Technology in general and Bitcoin is deflationary
In a deflationary world, playing inflationary games may be quite costly and wasteful.

FUD
The regulatory environment in many Western countries has grown to be very friendly towards it. It has helped grow the Bitcoin network as this Asset is now being traded on regulated exchanges with anti-laundering compliance etc. In Authoritarian countries where centralized Bitcoin exchanges are strangled, the P2P exchanges have exploded with a premium on price. Those States who adopt Bitcoin would benefit and those States that do not would be left behind.
Those are not my words, those are recent words of the House minority Leader in the US advocating to embrace it in the realm of Geopolitics.

Do not apply an analog lens in a Digital World!

thanks,
JF

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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#404089

Postby Urbandreamer » April 14th, 2021, 7:29 am

Looking at the poll some 20% or 1 in 5 of those who voted own some crypto.

Given that fact I think we should all be careful not to imply that the only use for crypto is to facilitate crime or immorality and hence insult them.

If you currently have that opinion, it might be worth finding out why others not only disagree, but disagree enough to use/own the stuff.

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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#404110

Postby NotSure » April 14th, 2021, 9:48 am

Lootman wrote:No need to wait for a Bitcoin ETF.


Not an ETF, but Bitpanda, a well-established and reputable platform for buying, dealing many crypto assets within Europe (plus precious metals and currencies), has 'crypto indices', BCI5, BCI10 and BCI25 which 'invest' in a weighted allocation to the top 5, 10 and 25 crypto assets respectively.

https://www.bitpanda.com/en/bci-bitpanda-crypto-index

They rebalance each month based on a formula described in the prospectus. The weighting is mainly driven by market cap, but has maxima and minima so ends up somewhere between cap and equal weighting. Back testing of their methodology showed it slightly outperformed simple 'HODLing'.

https://nardew.medium.com/on-the-performance-of-bitpanda-crypto-index-3f6198a9fdfc

I decided to put a few quid, literally 'bingo money' on BCI25. Setting up an account is fairly straightforward. Bitpanda's fees are a little high, but not bad considering the convenience, and what's a few percent fees on a lottery ticket? I just wish they had a 'PoS' index, as not totally comfortable with 'PoW' - it's a total waste of FLOPs (and energy) IMHO.

(PoS is 'proof of stake' and does not involve much 'mining', as opposed to 'proof of work' that does. FLOPs are floating point operations per second, a measure of computational activity).

Consider this post as crypto's 'shoeshine moment' ;).

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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#404127

Postby murraypaul » April 14th, 2021, 10:53 am

Urbandreamer wrote:Looking at the poll some 20% or 1 in 5 of those who voted own some crypto.

Given that fact I think we should all be careful not to imply that the only use for crypto is to facilitate crime or immorality and hence insult them.

If you currently have that opinion, it might be worth finding out why others not only disagree, but disagree enough to use/own the stuff.


Use/own is not the same.
The poll wasn't for how many people have used (actually bought something with) Bitcoin.
I'm sure there are a lot of people who see no real use for Bitcoin, but are buying it as a speculative punt.

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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#404135

Postby NotSure » April 14th, 2021, 11:15 am

murraypaul wrote:I'm sure there are a lot of people who see no real use for Bitcoin, but are buying it as a speculative punt.


I would agree. Bitcoin seems to have no real use other than a speculative punt - it lacks the scalability and throughput to be useful and transaction fees are far too high.

However, among the many 'altcoins' (aka sh1tcoins), there are several that are serious attempts by well qualified and intelligent people to create address the deficits of Bitcoin as a tool for decentralised finance (DeFi). These tokens aim for exceedingly low transaction costs (fractions of a penny for some), huge scalability, low energy use, friendly development interfaces etc.

Decentralized finance (commonly referred to as DeFi) is a blockchain-based form of finance that does not rely on central financial intermediaries such as brokerages, exchanges, or banks to offer traditional financial instruments, and instead utilizes smart contracts on blockchains, the most common being Ethereum.[1] DeFi platforms allow people to lend or borrow funds from others, speculate on price movements on a range of assets using derivatives, trade cryptocurrencies, insure against risks, and earn interest in savings-like accounts....


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralized_finance

They (altcoins) are all still very much speculative punts, but one can at least compare their merits and downsides and come to a qualitative conclusion on their likely utility and success. I do believe DeFi will become 'a thing'. We've already gone from, e.g. expensive and inconvenient libraries to free and accessible internet based resources. Banking is already largely on line. DeFi seems like the next logical step, for some activities at least.

I'm startling to sound like like a crypto shill ;). However, I am firmly in the 'less than 1%' camp.

seekingbalance
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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

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Postby seekingbalance » April 14th, 2021, 12:02 pm

BCI25 looks exactly like the kind of thing I am after. I’d prefer one without the top 5, a sort of ftse250 type of thing, with perhaps coins 6-30 instead of 1 to 25, but still, not bad.

Fees look excessive though, 2% on initial then 2% on the rebalance. How do you know how much this lenient will amount to over a year?

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Re: Do you own Cryptocurrency? A poll

#404149

Postby Urbandreamer » April 14th, 2021, 12:05 pm

murraypaul wrote:Use/own is not the same.
The poll wasn't for how many people have used (actually bought something with) Bitcoin.
I'm sure there are a lot of people who see no real use for Bitcoin, but are buying it as a speculative punt.


Well some who own it claim to do so as a store of value. You can't "use" sovereigns to buy stuff. Does that mean the only reason that people buy them is as a speculative punt on the price of gold? There are far easier and cheaper ways of making such a punt.

This guy seems to explain the "use" of bitcoin (by owning it) quite well.
https://medium.com/road-less-ventured/w ... 464d5fd619
I love this bit.
Ironically, an original stack of Monopoly game money from 1935 is worth roughly $40-$60 on eBay today as a collectible item, meaning “Monopoly Money” has held its value better than real money over the last 85 years.


On a purely semantic note, I'd claim that making a "speculaive punt" was very different to buying with the intention of owning something over the long term.


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