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Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

Any other investment discussions eg. peer to peer lending
JMN2
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#100047

Postby JMN2 » November 29th, 2017, 8:26 pm

Charity starts at home and this bitcoin thing may well go tits up but should it survive my choice of charity will be Beit Halochem.

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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#100093

Postby Hampshirelad » November 30th, 2017, 7:43 am

Braziers wrote:
I reckon you could be just in time

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/wp-conte ... bubble.png


Good call, could have doubled stake since then.....hmmm wonder if there's still some headroom :lol:

https://www.coindesk.com/price/

It's got to be a matter of days or at worst weeks now....surely :shock:

will89
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#100261

Postby will89 » November 30th, 2017, 3:46 pm

You cant really discuss crypto without an understanding of the tech involved and the aims of that tech. It's like calling motorways 'a fraud' without any knowledge of what a car is or does.

I find blockchain exciting because it's going to change the world, if increased price of cryptocurrencies is a result of that, then so be it. If you actually take time to learn about the tech and the ramifications, use cases etc, you will realise that the price is secondary, bubble or no bubble. The classic example is Ethereum. There are so many thousands of businesses and developers working on Ethereum projects now that it's not going to 'collapse', it's not a 'fraud', that's like saying the oil industry is a fraud. In actual fact, most of the key players in the ecosystem don't really care what the price of the linked currency is, they are just focused on building sound projects that bring about change.

I'm not disappointed that it made me a nice amount of money... but that's definitely not the only reason I'm passionate about it. Prices right now are in a short term bubble, of course, but I don't care at all about the short term, I'm excited about seeing what all these clever people can do and checking back on the price in 5 years! It helps that I have a crypto debit card in my wallet with Bitcoin loaded onto it that I can spend just like I would any other money.

Go and look at Gartner hype cycles, adoption curves, and prices on a logarithmic scale, it may help!

GoSeigen
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#100338

Postby GoSeigen » November 30th, 2017, 9:09 pm

You cant really discuss crypto without an understanding of the tech involved and the aims of that tech.


Of course we can. This is an investment discussion board. We are interested in the investment aspects, not just the technicalities.


I find blockchain exciting because it's going to change the world, if increased price of cryptocurrencies is a result of that, then so be it.


This might be true, while at the same time one could be scammed by buying Bitcoin or other cryptos. As with dot com mania, world-changing technologies and scammy financial products are not mutually exclusive!


helps that I have a crypto debit card in my wallet with Bitcoin loaded onto it that I can spend just like I would any other money.


I'd be surprised if one could spend with a bitcoin crypto debit card "just like [you] would any other money". Is there any ftse250 company that accepts bitcoin as payment for their services? A sterling credit card can be used with just about all of them... Is there a single major UK retailer that even prices in bitcoin? As it's not legal tender I very much doubt it but happy to be corrected.

GS

JMN2
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#100833

Postby JMN2 » December 2nd, 2017, 3:21 pm

Sliced off a few coins and treated myself to a Fender Telecaster - I am loving it, thank you crypto! :lol:

(sunburst...what other colour is there for an electric guitar...)

CommissarJones
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#101234

Postby CommissarJones » December 3rd, 2017, 9:09 pm

Coinbase, a U.S. broker of digital assets, has been ordered by a federal court to turn over data on more than 14,000 account holders to tax authorities.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/29/167 ... rs-records

From the linked story:

"The government made no claim of suspicion against individual users, but instead argued that the order was justified based on the discrepancy between Coinbase users and US citizens reporting Bitcoin gains to the IRS. Coinbase boasts nearly 6 million customers, but according to a government filing, fewer than 1,000 US citizens have reported cryptocurrency holdings on their taxes."

GoSeigen
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#101290

Postby GoSeigen » December 4th, 2017, 6:28 am

1nv35t wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:I hereby offer to donate £1,000 (one thousand) to a charity nominated by JMN2 and/or Surerera. I'm happy to set a date one year from today to judge this, criterion for me to avoid the payout being that Bitcoin has had a drawdown to at least 87.5% below its peak value by that date. [Not that meeting this criterion will necessarily mean I am right, but we need some sort of objective test...]

Hmm, irrational exuberance can endure for multiple years GoSeigen. IIR history correctly Tulip price rises were a multi-year event.


I don't mind losing this [one-sided] bet. It'll go to a good cause... if the final post in 12 months is not deemed off topic and deleted by mods like happened to me last time in a charity bet with BertEEE at TMF!

LOL


GS

will89
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#101302

Postby will89 » December 4th, 2017, 9:08 am

GoSeigen wrote:
You cant really discuss crypto without an understanding of the tech involved and the aims of that tech.


Of course we can. This is an investment discussion board. We are interested in the investment aspects, not just the technicalities.


I completely disagree. Would you have invested in Google or Facebook without an understanding of what they actually did? Surely the whole process of analysing potential investments is to get an understanding of the business involved so that you can assess the merits or demerits of an investment?


GoSeigen wrote:
I'd be surprised if one could spend with a bitcoin crypto debit card "just like [you] would any other money". Is there any ftse250 company that accepts bitcoin as payment for their services? A sterling credit card can be used with just about all of them... Is there a single major UK retailer that even prices in bitcoin? As it's not legal tender I very much doubt it but happy to be corrected.



I probably should have explained better. I have a Visa debit card linked to a Bitcoin wallet, it allows me to spend Bitcoin anywhere Visa is accepted because it just converts the Fiat transaction value to BTC and debits it from my wallet. https://www.tenx.tech/

As I said, you can't really discuss it usefully without an understanding of the tech ;)

I need to reaffirm that I agree that Bitcoin is probably in a big bubble. Bit Bitcoin is not Blockchain.

JMN2
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#101307

Postby JMN2 » December 4th, 2017, 9:35 am

Apparently blockchain and bitcoin are currently where internet was in 1992. First time I had internet at home was 1996 or 1997 with a 56k dial in modem. In 1998 I got broadband at 1-2 mega speed. In 1992 I used an "email" message system a few times at the uni. I seldom have original thoughts and ideas about technology matters but I just was thinking that all the dot com boom and bust silliness perhaps had to happen in order for the internet and web to break free and show their potential.

GoSeigen
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#101316

Postby GoSeigen » December 4th, 2017, 10:06 am

will89 wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
You cant really discuss crypto without an understanding of the tech involved and the aims of that tech.


Of course we can. This is an investment discussion board. We are interested in the investment aspects, not just the technicalities.


I completely disagree. Would you have invested in Google or Facebook without an understanding of what they actually did? Surely the whole process of analysing potential investments is to get an understanding of the business involved so that you can assess the merits or demerits of an investment?

No, we've already agreed there is no business involved. That is what my ten questions were about and you did not dispute or correct the answers I gave. Bitcoin is a pure speculation as you reaffirmed below, no more to it. For now you may personally be in profit, but you have failed to demonstrate the minutest underlying authentic value in bitcoin i.e. a basis for the value attributed to all holders in aggregate.


GoSeigen wrote:
I'd be surprised if one could spend with a bitcoin crypto debit card "just like [you] would any other money". Is there any ftse250 company that accepts bitcoin as payment for their services? A sterling credit card can be used with just about all of them... Is there a single major UK retailer that even prices in bitcoin? As it's not legal tender I very much doubt it but happy to be corrected.



I probably should have explained better. I have a Visa debit card linked to a Bitcoin wallet, it allows me to spend Bitcoin anywhere Visa is accepted because it just converts the Fiat transaction value to BTC and debits it from my wallet. https://www.tenx.tech/

As I said, you can't really discuss it usefully without an understanding of the tech ;)


With respect that is both impudent and false. I will not take directions from you on what I do or don't understand or what I may or may not discuss.

Your explanation above demonstrates my accurate understanding of the financial transaction which is this:
1. You are not spending bitoin with your card.
2. What you are doing is liquidating a portion your bitcoin, converting it to a proper currency, and then spending that currency.
3. The spending you are doing is on products priced not in bitcoin, but in a proper currency that has real value. You are relying on the fact that at the moment you spend it someone else will be foolish enough to give you some of their valuable real currency in exchange for your worthless bitcoins.

I need to reaffirm that I agree that Bitcoin is probably in a big bubble. Bit Bitcoin is not Blockchain.


And Bitcoin gives you no stake in blockchain even if the latter has any intrinsic value -- or if it does you've had ample opportunity to reveal how, but haven't. The point is irrelevant.

Bitcoin is what buyers are sinking their money into and is where they will lose it. That is the focus of my criticism.


GS

will89
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#101322

Postby will89 » December 4th, 2017, 10:22 am

GoSeigen wrote:
With respect that is both impudent and false. I will not take directions from you on what I do or don't understand or what I may or may not discuss.

Your explanation above demonstrates my accurate understanding of the financial transaction which is this:
1. You are not spending bitoin with your card.
2. What you are doing is liquidating a portion your bitcoin, converting it to a proper currency, and then spending that currency.
3. The spending you are doing is on products priced not in bitcoin, but in a proper currency that has real value. You are relying on the fact that at the moment you spend it someone else will be foolish enough to give you some of their valuable real currency in exchange for your worthless bitcoins.



Bitcoin isn't a currency, it's more akin to a commodity or a store of value like gold. I can't pay for my shopping with a gold bar either but it still has value.
The way you load all the arguments with phrases like 'proper currency' and 'foolish people' really isn't constructive.


GoSeigen wrote:
And Bitcoin gives you no stake in blockchain even if the latter has any intrinsic value -- or if it does you've had ample opportunity to reveal how, but haven't. The point is irrelevant.

Bitcoin is what buyers are sinking their money into and is where they will lose it. That is the focus of my criticism.


I'm not disputing many of the attributes you're labeling Bitcoin with, but you need to understand the difference, as I've mentioned previously, between Bitcoin and Blockchain, as the sentence above shows. 'Blockchain' has no intrinsic value. Different blockchains may do, because of the businesses that use them to function or function on them.

I'm a buyer and I'm not buying Bitcoin, I'm investing in blockchain projects that show real potential.

Power Ledger
Civic
TenX
Golem
Status
Bancor
Iconomi


Go and look any of them up, the're businesses that are using blockchain to improve and add value to their business propositions.

(I'm not invested in many of the businesses above, they were just the first examples I could think of)

GoSeigen
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#101328

Postby GoSeigen » December 4th, 2017, 10:31 am

will89 wrote:I probably should have explained better. I have a Visa debit card linked to a Bitcoin wallet, it allows me to spend Bitcoin anywhere Visa is accepted because it just converts the Fiat transaction value to BTC and debits it from my wallet. https://www.tenx.tech/

As I said, you can't really discuss it usefully without an understanding of the tech ;)

[EDIT: Substituted more relevant quote]

In previous posts I have reacted strongly to will89's disparaging tone, but he should at least be thanked for engaging and thereby exposing exactly how people are being conned by the cryptocoin racket.

I've heard several people commenting on how some friend has been "spending" bitcoin "currency". This narrative is and has been shown by will89's responses to be entirely false.


Had a discussion recently with a well connected contact in the financial/regulatory world (think senior IMF), and they expained why regulators have taken little action so far:

-the international/distributed nature of the technology (which of course is one of its selling points bit will also prove its downfall) meaning no single national regulator feels compelled to take the lead in their jurisdiction. Team work is either alien to them or, more likely, subject to inertia.
-that bitcoins themselves as an asset fall between various categories of regulated investment, making it diffictult to see which laws apply in order to lawfully intervene.

Thus for now, action is likely to arise out of individual complaints and legal cases, which in turn may not happen until the tide goes out, exposing all the nude bathers!

GS

will89
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#101330

Postby will89 » December 4th, 2017, 10:43 am

GoSeigen wrote:
will89 wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
In previous posts I have reacted strongly to will89's disparaging tone, but he should at least be thanked for engaging and thereby exposing exactly how people are being conned by the cryptocoin racket.

I've heard several people commenting on how some friend has been "spending" bitcoin "currency". This narrative is and has been shown by will89's responses to be entirely false.


Had a discussion recently with a well connected contact in the financial/regulatory world (think senior IMF), and they expained why regulators have taken little action so far:

-the international/distributed nature of the technology (which of course is one of its selling points bit will also prove its downfall) meaning no single national regulator feels compelled to take the lead in their jurisdiction. Team work is either alien to them or, more likely, subject to inertia.
-that bitcoins themselves as an asset fall between various categories of regulated investment, making it diffictult to see which laws apply in order to lawfully intervene.

Thus for now, action is likely to arise out of individual complaints and legal cases, which in turn may not happen until the tide goes out, exposing all the nude bathers!


It's pretty rude and tiresome how you're just trying to take 'the higher ground' the whole time and disparaging any arguments that I make.

Maybe regulators have taken little action because they have no idea what to do, and they're scared that Cryptocurrencies will expose Fiat as a greater scam, where money that, as you have explained over and over again has real value, can just be printed at will! It's interesting to note that many of these cryptocurrencies, that you repeatedly state have no value, in fact have a fixed supply, but of course that doesn't matter if they're worthless in your eyes!

It's interesting to note that in countries that have had crises recently, Zimbabwe the notable example, the price of Bitcoin has flourished as people have abandoned Fiat currency (of course, you would say only the Fiat has any value). Which has the value then?
I'd rather have 1 BTC than 10000000ZWD! The notion that Fiat currency is immune to devaluation is of course a flawed one, and I'll be interested to see how 'value' is retained by both Fiat and Crypto in the next great financial crisis.

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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#101333

Postby GoSeigen » December 4th, 2017, 10:53 am

will89 wrote:
Bitcoin isn't a currency, it's more akin to a commodity or a store of value like gold. I can't pay for my shopping with a gold bar either but it still has value.
The way you load all the arguments with phrases like 'proper currency' and 'foolish people' really isn't constructive.


This is disningenuous. You know very well that it is widely described as a currency. Your own claim that you have a card to "spend" bitcoin has the plain language implication that the bitcoin should be viewed as equivalent to a currency.

Re: loaded terms. Guilty as charged. I believe it's a con supported by "greater fools" and shall continue to describe it thus until persuaded otherwise.
GoSeigen wrote:
And Bitcoin gives you no stake in blockchain even if the latter has any intrinsic value -- or if it does you've had ample opportunity to reveal how, but haven't. The point is irrelevant.

Bitcoin is what buyers are sinking their money into and is where they will lose it. That is the focus of my criticism.


I'm not disputing many of the attributes you're labeling Bitcoin with, but you need to understand the difference, as I've mentioned previously, between Bitcoin and Blockchain, as the sentence above shows. 'Blockchain' has no intrinsic value. Different blockchains may do, because of the businesses that use them to function or function on them.

Do you mean to tutor me on the difference between a class and an instance of a class?
I'm a buyer and I'm not buying Bitcoin, I'm investing in blockchain projects that show real potential.

[...]

Go and look any of them up, the're businesses that are using blockchain to improve and add value to their business propositions.

(I'm not invested in many of the businesses above, they were just the first examples I could think of)


Please share the nature of your investment: Equity? Loans? Angel capital? Your experience would I'm sure be valuable to readers.


I agree that a stake in individual technologies may have some value. I doubt any of them are capitalised at $200bn, which is the topic of this conversation.

GS

will89
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#101335

Postby will89 » December 4th, 2017, 10:58 am

will89 wrote:
Bitcoin isn't a currency, it's more akin to a commodity or a store of value like gold. I can't pay for my shopping with a gold bar either but it still has value.
The way you load all the arguments with phrases like 'proper currency' and 'foolish people' really isn't constructive.


GoSeigen wrote:This is disningenuous. You know very well that it is widely described as a currency. Your own claim that you have a card to "spend" bitcoin has the plain language implication that the bitcoin should be viewed as equivalent to a currency.

Re: loaded terms. Guilty as charged. I believe it's a con supported by "greater fools" and shall continue to describe it thus until persuaded otherwise.


This is just wrong, it's been widely discussed that Bitcoin is a commodity not a currency. It is more regularly referred to as 'digital Gold'. Here are some examples from a quick Google:
https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-commod ... ank-chief/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydor ... ead76e2e5b
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... dog-chief/

My debit card for Bitcoin is no different to having a card where someone shaves a small bit of gold from my block every time I use the card for a GBP transaction.
Last edited by will89 on December 4th, 2017, 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

JMN2
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#101338

Postby JMN2 » December 4th, 2017, 11:05 am

5 stages:
Denial
Anger (GoSeigen) :lol:
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

https://youtu.be/1dEcdGc0tIo

Moderator Message:
Gentlemen, this has now degenerated into name calling, and in the time honoured expression, "This correspondence must now cease". Accordingly I am locking the topic before anybody says anything more that they regret.

If you want to start a new topic in a more civilised manner, go ahead.

TJH

GoSeigen
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#101343

Postby GoSeigen » December 4th, 2017, 11:16 am

will89 wrote:It's pretty rude and tiresome how you're just trying to take 'the higher ground' the whole time and disparaging any arguments that I make.

Merely arguing the point is not rude. It's the raison d'etre of these boards. If you don't like arguments being dismissed, then make stronger arguments, and please quit attacking the poster ["you don't understand" etc].

GS

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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#101345

Postby mrbrightside » December 4th, 2017, 11:17 am

GoSeigen wrote:I believe it's a con supported by "greater fools" and shall continue to describe it thus until persuaded otherwise.


OK. You think Bitcoin is a scam, a bubble and people who choose to invest in it are fools. We get it. Because you're told us hundreds of times.

Why do you devote so much time to airing your views and trying to help people avoid this dangerous unregulated Ponzi scheme ? Do you think you are providing a useful, public service for TLF readers ? Can't you accept that other people may think otherwise ? They might be right, they might be wrong. Who knows or cares ? Or won't you desist until you've battered us all into submission and converted everyone to your point of view ?

Why don't you take a break from TLF, review your portfolio, invest in something you understand like Vodafone or Gilts, research the subject ('20GBP per BTC transaction', yeah right), write your Christmas cards or wash the car ?

Anything but constantly patronising the incredibly patient will89 and endlessly droning on on TLF about cryptocurrencies.

GoSeigen
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

#101346

Postby GoSeigen » December 4th, 2017, 11:21 am

To JMN2 and mrbrightside: this is a discussion forum. Keep the rules and play the ball, not the man.

GS


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