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Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

Any other investment discussions eg. peer to peer lending
GoSeigen
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Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#101378

Postby GoSeigen » December 4th, 2017, 1:03 pm

Responding to will89's earlier points on a locked thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=78&t=5326&start=60#p101335

will89 wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
will89 wrote:Bitcoin isn't a currency, it's more akin to a commodity or a store of value like gold. I can't pay for my shopping with a gold bar either but it still has value.
The way you load all the arguments with phrases like 'proper currency' and 'foolish people' really isn't constructive.


This is disningenuous. You know very well that it is widely described as a currency. Your own claim that you have a card to "spend" bitcoin has the plain language implication that the bitcoin should be viewed as equivalent to a currency.
[...]

This is just wrong, it's been widely discussed that Bitcoin is a commodity not a currency.

It's been widely discussed but that does not mean it's accepted or even clear: it's a moot point, for instance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin
Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency and worldwide payment system. It is the first decentralized digital currency – the system works without a central repository or single administrator. [with references]

Bitcoin is widely described and believed to be a "currency", with the limited understanding but positive connotations that go along with the term. If you don't like that, then feel free to fix the sources, but don't shoot the messenger!


Anyway, if you consider bitcoin not to be a currency, then we at least agree on that. Satoshi Nakamoto described bitcoin as an "electronic cash system" and not a "currency" in his whitepaper and I agree, that has not really changed.

will89 wrote:
My debit card for Bitcoin is no different to having a card where someone shaves a small bit of gold from my block every time I use the card for a GBP transaction.


True, a bit like gold, but that's different to your earlier claim that: "I have a crypto debit card in my wallet with Bitcoin loaded onto it that I can spend just like I would any other money."

I disagreed with the earlier statement. When you use a regular debit card or cash, you contract with a trader in pounds sterling and the trader receives the contracted amount in pounds sterling cash or via the debit card intermediary.

When you use your bitcoin debit card, the trader is not taking your bitcoin. They are taking the established currency. Your contract in bitcoins is with your card provider or their agent. When you buy something with the card, you agree that your card provider will liquidate some of your bitcoin at market value and advance real currency to the trader with whom you are dealing.

In this transaction you exposed to additional market risk: you are relying on the fact that there is a counterparty in the market for your bitcoin and are at the mercy of the price that party is prepared to pay for the bitcoin at that moment. In effect you are engaged in two deals and not one every time you pay for something: the purchase of the item from the trader and the sale of your bitcoin into the market.

If bitcoin were a proper currency with guaranteed, stable value, sound legal basis and accptable transaction costs, this arrangement might be viable.

Until then, this is quite different to a normal debit card; if a bitcoin card provider equates the two in their marketing that is a deceptive practice IMO.


GS

Hampshirelad
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#101664

Postby Hampshirelad » December 4th, 2017, 11:56 pm

I get the concept of there being value in the technology i.e. BlockChain

But Bitcoin is just an implementation of that technology....there are now over 1300 implementations:
https://coinmarketcap.com/all/views/all/

More importantly governments just aren't going to allow new currencies to flourish....governments will always want control over Money.....we may see government cryptocurrencies....but they are going to soon clamp down on these private ones.

I think we only have weeks left to run on this one, then they are ALL heading to zero....Blockchain (or an incarnation) will probably survive but most of these cryptos are just Boo.com.

GoSeigen
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The Satoshi is beginning to drop

#104247

Postby GoSeigen » December 14th, 2017, 8:49 pm

Ted tried to sell some bitcoin:

https://twitter.com/TedOnPrivacy/status ... 1709896704

It's really hard to cash out.

LOL, tell me about it!


Now poor Ted is struggling there, but I've been reliably informed that there are bitcoin debit cards which you can use just like traditional debit cards. All he needs to do is get one of the debit cards, go down to his local ATM and draw out the cash. If he needs a big chunk he can go into a branch and do it over the counter.

Simples.

:-)

GS

JMN2
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#104312

Postby JMN2 » December 15th, 2017, 8:53 am

Hard to cash out?

For bitcoin I only need the liquidity once and I'm quite positive that can be arranged when we hit $1mn 8-)

For the cryptofund I own a tiny piece, I have weekly liquidity.

GS, I was told not to play the man so am very quick to observe the mocking undertone of your post.

will89
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#104326

Postby will89 » December 15th, 2017, 11:06 am

GoSeigen wrote:
Now poor Ted is struggling there, but I've been reliably informed that there are bitcoin debit cards which you can use just like traditional debit cards. All he needs to do is get one of the debit cards, go down to his local ATM and draw out the cash. If he needs a big chunk he can go into a branch and do it over the counter.

Simples.



JMN2 wrote:
GS, I was told not to play the man so am very quick to observe the mocking undertone of your post.


I've given up caring about the undertones, my issue is that what GS is saying is factually incorrect. I have a debit card that allows me to exchange Bitcoin for GBP at the current rate, in any store or cashpoint that accepts Visa. It's in my wallet right now and I can use it today. If you read the website you will see that once verification has taken place, there are no withdrawal limits.

https://www.tenx.tech/

I also read through the twitter thread above, which seems to have been picked from obscurity to enunciate a point. Most of it is just FUD, it's intended to be taken in a comedic way (shown by his references to MtGox, Vitalik Buterin etc). The vast majority of bottlenecks in the process that is outlined are actually due to traditional financial institutions. I agree that Bitcoin is outdated and the transaction times are slow though!

Bubblesofearth
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#104398

Postby Bubblesofearth » December 15th, 2017, 3:45 pm

Hampshirelad wrote:
More importantly governments just aren't going to allow new currencies to flourish....governments will always want control over Money.....we may see government cryptocurrencies....but they are going to soon clamp down on these private ones.


For many years governments were happy to adopt a gold standard and they had no control over gold (other than owning chunks of it). So not sure a cryptocurrency should be any different. Money as a concept has immense value and the search to identify the best thing to use as money is as old as the demise of barter. If a cryptocurrency ticks all the boxes for the ideal money then it should be considered.

The total value of any monetary base that is adopted is probably going to be close to the value of all the Worlds gold, around $8trn, given gold has continued to hold its value since the demise of the gold standard.

However, I personally cannot see Bitcoin being adopted as the Global currency. If governments around the World did manage to get together and agree cryptocurrency was the way to go then I imagine a new one would be created and divided up on the basis of current relative wealth of nations. No way would they simply allow Global wealth to be attributed to whoever happened to be holding Bitcoins at the time.

So I'm pretty much with those who believe that Bitcoin is in a huge speculative bubble. Fun to watch but I won't be taking part.

BoE

GoSeigen
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#104405

Postby GoSeigen » December 15th, 2017, 4:12 pm

JMN2 wrote:
GS, I was told not to play the man so am very quick to observe the mocking undertone of your post.


Are you Ted, JMN2? If not you've no reason to get offended.

My mocking is of bitcoin and anyone who claims with conviction that it Definitely is Not a Scam but then cannot in any way support their claim. I don't think you fit into this category either, do you?


GS

will89
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#104408

Postby will89 » December 15th, 2017, 4:24 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
My mocking is of bitcoin and anyone who claims with conviction that it Definitely is Not a Scam but then cannot in any way support their claim. I don't think you fit into this category either, do you?



I haven't yet read anyone 'claim with conviction that it is definitely not a scam without any support'.

I think the use of the word scam is a complete misuse anyway, it implies malicious intent by a bad actor. Can anyone provide any evidence that it may be such?

JMN2
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#104430

Postby JMN2 » December 15th, 2017, 6:04 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
JMN2 wrote:
GS, I was told not to play the man so am very quick to observe the mocking undertone of your post.


Are you Ted, JMN2? If not you've no reason to get offended.

My mocking is of bitcoin and anyone who claims with conviction that it Definitely is Not a Scam but then cannot in any way support their claim. I don't think you fit into this category either, do you?


GS


I am not Ted but I was told not to play the man when I merely made a genial remark in good humour. I don't really get offended ever and I don't know about scams but it would have to be the most elaborate one ever, with blockchain and all and a whole industry building around it. I think I am entitled to enjoy a bubble after decades of sensible investing, I unitised my crypto fund holding and am seeing 1727% return in November on my investment - weekly liquidity, CIMA regulated.

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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#104622

Postby justfisk » December 16th, 2017, 10:43 pm

Bubblesofearth wrote:
Hampshirelad wrote:
More importantly governments just aren't going to allow new currencies to flourish....governments will always want control over Money.....we may see government cryptocurrencies....but they are going to soon clamp down on these private ones.


For many years governments were happy to adopt a gold standard and they had no control over gold (other than owning chunks of it). So not sure a cryptocurrency should be any different. Money as a concept has immense value and the search to identify the best thing to use as money is as old as the demise of barter. If a cryptocurrency ticks all the boxes for the ideal money then it should be considered.

The total value of any monetary base that is adopted is probably going to be close to the value of all the Worlds gold, around $8trn, given gold has continued to hold its value since the demise of the gold standard.

However, I personally cannot see Bitcoin being adopted as the Global currency. If governments around the World did manage to get together and agree cryptocurrency was the way to go then I imagine a new one would be created and divided up on the basis of current relative wealth of nations. No way would they simply allow Global wealth to be attributed to whoever happened to be holding Bitcoins at the time.

So I'm pretty much with those who believe that Bitcoin is in a huge speculative bubble. Fun to watch but I won't be taking part.

BoE



I agree Govts are not going to want Bitcoin adopted as a Global currency. Its also quite likely they may create their own "National" Cryptos or "Global" cryptos. These "FEDCoins" or "BOECoins" might even be more convenient and efficient to use day-to-day, within State borders. However, I see that as inadvertently legitimizing Bitcoin even further.
In the technology space that could be akin to comparing the efficient and safe, yet boring and unexciting closed "Intranet" of corporate networks with the Open and exciting limitless opportunities of the "Internet". The Open, decentralized network (internet) has triumphed over the Closed hierarchical network already as we observed in that example. I might be coerced to use National Coin, but I wager many would still choose to keep their Bitcoin.

Afterall, we have seen the devaluation of such National currencies, and storing Value in those coins longterm would be no different to currently keeping all of one's assets in Cash longterm. The fact we are all on this forum is testament of the failure of FEDcash and BOEcash to preserve value longterm.
The allure of Bitcoin to many, is not just the fact that it is digital money, but the confluence of its technology, game theory and Governance.

thanks,
JF

Bubblesofearth
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#104819

Postby Bubblesofearth » December 17th, 2017, 9:19 pm

justfisk wrote:
I agree Govts are not going to want Bitcoin adopted as a Global currency. Its also quite likely they may create their own "National" Cryptos or "Global" cryptos. These "FEDCoins" or "BOECoins" might even be more convenient and efficient to use day-to-day, within State borders. However, I see that as inadvertently legitimizing Bitcoin even further.

JF


Problem is governments decide what currency they want you to pay your taxes in.

BoE

ModernMicawber
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#104926

Postby ModernMicawber » December 18th, 2017, 1:14 pm

Well, further to viewtopic.php?p=86270#p86270 (the locked thread), I took some profit from the Bitcoin ETN and used it to buy, er, some gilts.

The "WtF" in the voice on the other end of the phone was palpable.

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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#105162

Postby justfisk » December 19th, 2017, 4:51 pm

Bubblesofearth wrote:
Problem is governments decide what currency they want you to pay your taxes in.

BoE



They can have their taxes in whatever currency they want.
The thing with Bitcoin is they no longer get to decide or allow how people store their wealth or use this currency.
Money as free as speech.
That surely must have some value.

JF

supremetwo
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II - hacking losses again.

#105169

Postby supremetwo » December 19th, 2017, 5:28 pm

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bitc ... SKBN1ED0NJ

South Korean cryptocurrency exchange said on Tuesday it is shutting down and is filing for bankruptcy after it was hacked for the second time this year, highlighting concerns about security as trade in bitcoin and other virtual currencies boom.

So easy not to pay up.

GoSeigen
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#105183

Postby GoSeigen » December 19th, 2017, 7:13 pm

will89 wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
My mocking is of bitcoin and anyone who claims with conviction that it Definitely is Not a Scam but then cannot in any way support their claim. I don't think you fit into this category either, do you?



I haven't yet read anyone 'claim with conviction that it is definitely not a scam without any support'.

I think the use of the word scam is a complete misuse anyway, it implies malicious intent by a bad actor. Can anyone provide any evidence that it may be such?



Aplogies, the exact term used was "pyramid scheme", not "scam", though in my mind they are blood brothers if not twins. Hence:

will89 wrote:Also, it [ETH] is definitely not a pyramid scheme... Yes, there are certainly pyramid schemes within the crypto sphere, as there are within the stock market... It's pretty easy to avoid them though! [My parentheses]


and later ETH and BTC were identified as Not Pyramid Schemes. A pyramid scheme needs no bad actor with malicious intent, just someone to start it and plenty of gullible people to keep it moving. When the buyers dry up the scheme collapses leaving the late entrants out of pocket.

We know who started the cypto-pyramid and it's clear that there are still plenty of gullible marks. It's clearly unclear when the lemmings will stop pushing up prices.


GS

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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#105296

Postby Bubblesofearth » December 20th, 2017, 9:36 am

justfisk wrote:
They can have their taxes in whatever currency they want.
The thing with Bitcoin is they no longer get to decide or allow how people store their wealth or use this currency.
Money as free as speech.
That surely must have some value.

JF


Governments don't currently decide on how individuals allocate or store their wealth.

But if individuals and companies have to pay taxes in local currency then anyone wishing to use their bitcoins will need to exchange them for local currency first. No different to the situation with other assets such as gold. The value of the asset will be determined by the marketplace not by the productive base of the economy (which is what underpins and determines the value of, a local currency). This is a fundamental difference between a legal currency and bitcoin.

BoE

JMN2
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#105593

Postby JMN2 » December 21st, 2017, 6:28 pm

Leaving the Gatwick car park there is the big roundabout, I once was to enter it, no-one in sight, I started going and immediately noted a car coming really fast from the right, too late for me to break, best option step on the pedal - horn honking behind me - I keep my eyes on the road front of me - head low between my shoulders - anticipating a collision...which never came.

This is how I feel, too late to stop now.

Surerera
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#105698

Postby Surerera » December 22nd, 2017, 10:15 am

JMN2 - It's never too late to if there's still a bid...

BruceyBabey
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#105764

Postby BruceyBabey » December 22nd, 2017, 2:27 pm

Just a spot of everyday volatility.

Nothing to see here (except ruined underwear). I'm still up 326,090.19%.

Although that's irrelevant of course because I'll never sell. Just the same as 99.98% of hodlers. Hobo to Billionaire and back again. What a ride.

Itsallaguess
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Re: Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin II

#105766

Postby Itsallaguess » December 22nd, 2017, 2:32 pm

justfisk wrote:
Afterall, we have seen the devaluation of such National currencies, and storing Value in those coins long-term would be no different to currently keeping all of one's assets in Cash long-term.

The fact we are all on this forum is testament of the failure of FEDcash and BOEcash to preserve value long-term.


Just had a quick check, and sterling doesn't seem to be down 30% today....

Just sayin'.....

Itsallaguess


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