Remove ads

Introducing the LemonFools Personal Finance Calculators

"Old Money" Trusts?

Wider investment strategy discussions not dealt with elsewhere
Aminatidi
Lemon Pip
Posts: 96
Joined: March 4th, 2018, 8:22 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 19 times

"Old Money" Trusts?

#172614

Postby Aminatidi » October 9th, 2018, 5:23 pm

Curious because of a thread that mentioned it, what do people think of the "old money" trusts as a place to park some money for a long-term buy and hold?

For example:

Brunner
Caledonia
RIT
PNL (share price is an issue here with any kind of drip)
Witan

I guess I'm curious why the Rothschild's don't just buy a tracker :)

mc2fool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1076
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:24 am
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 195 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#172623

Postby mc2fool » October 9th, 2018, 7:11 pm

Aminatidi wrote:I guess I'm curious why the Rothschild's don't just buy a tracker :)

http://mediacharting.digitallook.com/cg ... dicator_3=

PinkDalek
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3102
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:12 pm
Has thanked: 682 times
Been thanked: 716 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#172629

Postby PinkDalek » October 9th, 2018, 7:48 pm

If of interest, some of those you name are discussed over at Investment Trusts and Unit Trusts:

viewforum.php?f=54

monabri
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2050
Joined: January 7th, 2017, 9:56 am
Has thanked: 190 times
Been thanked: 479 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#172632

Postby monabri » October 9th, 2018, 7:59 pm

Aminatidi wrote:
I guess I'm curious why the Rothschild's don't just buy a tracker :)


And where would be the commission in that for financial advice?

Backache
Lemon Pip
Posts: 55
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 22 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#172770

Postby Backache » October 10th, 2018, 11:43 am

Aminatidi wrote:
I guess I'm curious why the Rothschild's don't just buy a tracker :)

I would guess there are several reasons why the Rothschilds haven't just bought a tracker. Firstly low cost trackers tracking the world just did not exist when RIT started up.
Secondly a lot of their investments have not been in publicly listed companies thus not included in indices.
Thirdly and possibly related as pointed out above they have considerably outperformed the indices thus why would they want to use a tracker.

colin
Lemon Slice
Posts: 394
Joined: December 10th, 2016, 7:16 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#173096

Postby colin » October 11th, 2018, 6:32 pm

Seems it depends on the dates chosen and the benchmark which one compares performance to
http://tools.morningstar.co.uk/uk/cefreport/default.aspx?tab=1&SecurityToken=E0GBR00BUS%5D2%5D0%5DFCGBR%24%24ALL&Id=E0GBR00BUS&ClientFund=0&CurrencyId=GBP
They should have put their money in an all world tracker, well over the last ten years at least.

Aminatidi
Lemon Pip
Posts: 96
Joined: March 4th, 2018, 8:22 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#173105

Postby Aminatidi » October 11th, 2018, 6:42 pm

Thanks all, the tracker comment was a bit tongue in cheek :)

Contemplating a bit of play money into:

Witan
Brunner
CGT (PNL is just too expensive)
Caledonia
RIT

Split equally, won't shoot the lights out but interested in long term and from how I understand things to be right now the traditional bond allocation doesn't seem quite as guaranteed as it used to.

Dod101
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2072
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 365 times
Been thanked: 711 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#173116

Postby Dod101 » October 11th, 2018, 7:31 pm

I hold Caledonia and RIT from your list. Not sure why Personal Assets is considered to be too expensive as it always trades at or very close to NAV per their proclaimed policy. IT does not do a lot though. RIT is often at a premium and Caledonia at a discount.

BTW RIT is not run by 'the Rothschilds'. It is run by one Rothschild, to wit Lord Jacob Rothschild and his daughter. It has a lot of unquoted stuff that I could not easily access by myself and it is a decent performer.

Aminatidi's choice looks good to me

Dod

Aminatidi
Lemon Pip
Posts: 96
Joined: March 4th, 2018, 8:22 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#173117

Postby Aminatidi » October 11th, 2018, 7:35 pm

Dod101 wrote:I hold Caledonia and RIT from your list. Not sure why Personal Assets is considered to be too expensive as it always trades at or very close to NAV per their proclaimed policy. IT does not do a lot though. RIT is often at a premium and Caledonia at a discount.

BTW RIT is not run by 'the Rothschilds'. It is run by one Rothschild, to wit Lord Jacob Rothschild and his daughter. It has a lot of unquoted stuff that I could not easily access by myself and it is a decent performer.

Aminatadi's choice looks good to me

Dod


Expensive simply in so much as @ £400 means it's hard to do a monthly regular savings etc.

Dod101
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2072
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 365 times
Been thanked: 711 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#173149

Postby Dod101 » October 11th, 2018, 10:16 pm

Aminatidi wrote:Expensive simply in so much as @ £400 means it's hard to do a monthly regular savings etc.


There are many definitions of the word 'expensive' but I see what you mean. I used to hold this Trust but got fed up of it doing nothing (and it has not done much since) In January 2015 it was £360 and I sold in September 2015 at £338 so you are not missing much. There are far better trusts than Personal Assets, and it is not an 'Old Money' trust anyway.

Dod

dspp
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2523
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 1590 times
Been thanked: 474 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#173174

Postby dspp » October 11th, 2018, 11:47 pm

Dod101 wrote:BTW RIT is not run by 'the Rothschilds'. It is run by one Rothschild, to wit Lord Jacob Rothschild and his daughter. It has a lot of unquoted stuff that I could not easily access by myself and it is a decent performer.

Dod


Dod, From some comments a TMF regular made I suspect they hung out on TMF to shoot the breeze from time to time. There can't be that many people in the City teaching their daughter how to set up algo-trading with a smidge of family money on the kitchen table. I haven't clocked whether they equally hang out on TLF. yet. regards, dspp

Pendrainllwyn
Lemon Pip
Posts: 97
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:53 pm
Has thanked: 58 times
Been thanked: 63 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#173180

Postby Pendrainllwyn » October 12th, 2018, 3:18 am

Of these I own Caledonia. If you are adventurous there are some interesting "Old Money" companies listed on European exchanges that are effectively investment holding vehicles trading at substantial discounts to their underlying investments. Like Caledonia, they typically hold some combination of listed and unlisted equities and funds. Their equity holdings are typically few but often very large, large enough to have seats on company boards. These companies often claim to use their "old money" networks and board representation to help their investments (particularly unlisted) grow through acquisition. A few I am aware of.

Exor (Italy), Agnelli family (Primary quote in Euro)
Selected holdings: 100% of PartnerRe, 63.8% of Juventus, 43.4% of The Economist, 28.9% of FiatChrysler (FCA), 22.9% of Ferrari.

Investor AB (Sweden), Wallenberg family (Primary quote in Swedish Krona)
Selected holdings: 30.0% of SAAB, 20.8% of SEB, 15.5% of Electrolux, 11.6% of Nasdaq, 7.2% of Ericsson, 4.2% of AstraZeneca.

Pargesa (Switzerland), Desmarais family (Primary quote in Swiss Francs)
Selected holdings: 9.4% LafargeHolcim, 7.5% Pernod Ricard, 7.5% adidas

Wendel (France), Wendel family (primary quote in Euro)
Selected holdings: 40.7% of Bureau Veritas, 2.6% of Saint-Gobain. Wendel has large unlisted investments in Africa.

All four are owned by British Empire Trust which I own but I don't think finds much favour with Lemon Fool investors. I also own Exor and Wendel directly. Investor AB is very interesting but I don't want dividends in Swedish Krona.

Pendrainllwyn

Dod101
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2072
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 365 times
Been thanked: 711 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#173189

Postby Dod101 » October 12th, 2018, 6:21 am

British Empire did me well over some years in the 1990's then it seemed to lose its way a bit and I sold it not that long ago. It tries to identify companies selling at a substantial discount to underlying assets and then sell as and when the assets increase in value. It used to favour, and apparently still does, big European holding companies.

It was never exclusively European in its investments though. I may take another look because I like something a bit different.

I like Caledonia because if it underperforms for too long, some of the wider Cayzer family can be relied upon to stir things up a bit. It is primarily their money after all and we 'public' holders are simply piggy backing, just as we are with RIT, but that of course is the point.

Dod

Aminatidi
Lemon Pip
Posts: 96
Joined: March 4th, 2018, 8:22 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#173198

Postby Aminatidi » October 12th, 2018, 8:12 am

Thank you all, some good information.

"Old money" was perhaps a bit of a misleading title, but with current events and only having been doing this for six months I'm considering a few strategies and possibly a couple of pots.

It didn't seem the worse idea to look at some steady options that have been and are likely to be around for a long time and perhaps favour stability (as much as you can in this day and age) over trying to shoot the lights out.

Dod101
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2072
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 365 times
Been thanked: 711 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#173205

Postby Dod101 » October 12th, 2018, 8:57 am

Dod101 wrote:British Empire did me well over some years in the 1990's then it seemed to lose its way a bit and I sold it not that long ago. It tries to identify companies selling at a substantial discount to underlying assets and then sell as and when the assets increase in value. It used to favour, and apparently still does, big European holding companies.

It was never exclusively European in its investments though. I may take another look because I like something a bit different.

I like Caledonia because if it underperforms for too long, some of the wider Cayzer family can be relied upon to stir things up a bit. It is primarily their money after all and we 'public' holders are simply piggy backing, just as we are with RIT, but that of course is the point.

Dod


On the second line of this post, I should have said sell 'when the discount reduces'. It is misleading to say when the assets increase in value. That may happen, but their strategy is to buy on a big discount, engage with the management and hope to close the discount, then sell.

Sorry about that.

Dod

Aminatidi
Lemon Pip
Posts: 96
Joined: March 4th, 2018, 8:22 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#173337

Postby Aminatidi » October 12th, 2018, 5:18 pm

British Empire looks interesting.

That said if I go this route I don't want to be that person who turns up with 27 assorted investment trusts in 3 years time.

I'm trying to keep it fairly simple hence 4-5 IT's and an even split so I don't have to try to think too much.

doug2500
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 196
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:51 am
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 50 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#173368

Postby doug2500 » October 12th, 2018, 7:04 pm

Gadge wrote:
A more growth oriented investor could do worse than stick half his money in PNL and half in Scottish Mortgage and rebalance annually, in my view.
This would give a very simple to manage portfolio which I think would probably do quite well in any market condition.

Gadge



Wouldn't do it myself but I love the idea.

Pendrainllwyn
Lemon Pip
Posts: 97
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:53 pm
Has thanked: 58 times
Been thanked: 63 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#173369

Postby Pendrainllwyn » October 12th, 2018, 7:05 pm

Aminatidi wrote:I'm trying to keep it fairly simple hence 4-5 IT's and an even split so I don't have to try to think too much.
I have, for me, a large position in British Empire Trust but I am at the stamp collecting end of the spectrum. If I were only going to have 4 or 5 IT's and that was the bulk of my equity investment I wouldn't select British Empire.

Pendrainllwyn

Aminatidi
Lemon Pip
Posts: 96
Joined: March 4th, 2018, 8:22 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#173370

Postby Aminatidi » October 12th, 2018, 7:10 pm

doug2500 wrote:
Gadge wrote:
A more growth oriented investor could do worse than stick half his money in PNL and half in Scottish Mortgage and rebalance annually, in my view.
This would give a very simple to manage portfolio which I think would probably do quite well in any market condition.

Gadge



Wouldn't do it myself but I love the idea.


I wouldn't have the balls frankly. Way too wild of a ride whatever the long term direction.

Julian
Lemon Slice
Posts: 428
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:58 am
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 104 times

Re: "Old Money" Trusts?

#173462

Postby Julian » October 13th, 2018, 12:11 pm

Backache wrote:
Aminatidi wrote:
I guess I'm curious why the Rothschild's don't just buy a tracker :)

I would guess there are several reasons why the Rothschilds haven't just bought a tracker. Firstly low cost trackers tracking the world just did not exist when RIT started up.
Secondly a lot of their investments have not been in publicly listed companies thus not included in indices.
Thirdly and possibly related as pointed out above they have considerably outperformed the indices thus why would they want to use a tracker.

I really like RIT and wish I'd bought more. I've never quite been able to reconcile their categorisation as a wealth preservation trust along with stuff like Personal Assets, Ruffer and Capital Gearing though when RIT has a reasonable amount of unlisted stuff which to me seems pretty racy. My problem/short-sightedness/misunderstanding I guess but it certainly hasn't stopped me being an enthusiastic investor in RIT.

As an anecdote, a very long-time friend of mine (now US based) has worked all his career in the pharmaceutical industry and is now pretty senior. He has spent a lot of his later career either selecting and managing in-house VC investments or helping smaller or mid sized companies raise VC funding. He has had a lot of contact with VC funds and other investment teams wanting to participate in fundraising rounds. He often complained to me how pretty much every investment outfit that he has dealt with knew pretty much nothing about the pharma industry. I once mentioned that I held RIT who had some investments in unlisted pharma and his face lit up. Apparently they are one of the few outfits that actually fielded people with impressive knowledge of the industry when he was either pitching to them or joint-funding with them.

- Julian


Return to “Investment Strategies”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests