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Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

Stocks and Shares ISA , Choosing funds for ISA's, risk factors for funds etc
Investment strategy discussions not dealt with elsewhere.
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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223041

Postby BusyBumbleBee » May 19th, 2019, 9:29 pm

MDW1954 wrote:The AIC have been running a campaign about poorly-designed KIDs (which I've written about, and interviewed them about) and I personally wouldn't place too much reliance on a KID right now. I think it will be sorted eventually, but right now, it's a mess.

Go on the AIC site for more info.

How right you are, MDW1954: KIDs are worse than useless and downright misleading. Bad enough for this type of fund and for REITS (for example) but much worse for the VCT sector.

As you say - stick with the info from the AIC - but always cross-check with the statements in the interim and annual company reports

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223051

Postby Alaric » May 19th, 2019, 10:23 pm

oldapple wrote:PLUS. AJBell charges:

Dealing: 0.2%. £9.95 ( fixed charge Per deal I believe)
Stamp duty: 0.5%. £25.00
Custody charge 0.25%. £12.50
Total: 0.95%. £47.45

OVERALL TOTAL. 2.3%. £114.95


Dealing and Stamp duty only apply when first purchasing, so not really valid to add them to the ongoing charges.

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223052

Postby richfool » May 19th, 2019, 10:25 pm

oldapple wrote:Fund Manager Ongoing charge : 1.14% £57.00
Transaction charges (buying and selling underlying investments over the year): 0.21%. £10.50
Total: 1.35% £67.50

The above charges, which should be shown on the KID, are noted. However it should be noted that those charges are borne by the fund/trust, as opposed to any direct charges paid by the investor upon making the investment.

For example, the only fees I incur when actually making an investment, in a Guernsey/Jersey domiciled trust, are my broker's dealing fee of £5.95. My ISA (with X-O) imposes no admin, standing or custody fees. If a UK based trust then 0.5% stamp duty would need to be added in.

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223053

Postby PrefInvestor » May 19th, 2019, 10:32 pm

Hi Again Matt,

Just to be clear the charges (whatever they are) are built into the price that you pay for the stock, they will not appear in any other way. The only other things that you will pay will be your brokers charges (whatever they might be) and stamp duty (at 0.5%). I’m afraid that stamp duty is payable on UKW on a normal market purchase. I can confirm this as I just looked at the contract note for my previous UKW purchase.

Note that it’s precisely because the funds charges are TOTALLY hidden in the price that they are so contentious. In earlier years one had no idea what they were and investors suspected that they were being ripped off, and probably were in some cases. Hence the big deal about making the charges clear and visible. Unfortunately MIFID 2 hasn’t fully achieved that it would seem.

I intend to buy a few more UKW under the subscription offer which I saw appear on my brokers web site on Friday. Because I already hold some UKW shares I will be able to apply for more for which I will have to pay 133p each with NO stamp duty and NO commission – I rang my broker on Friday to confirm this situation. Of course however many I apply for might get scaled back if the offer is greatly oversubscribed. And of course it’s just possible that the market price could fall below 133p in which case I might be better of buying on the open market, but frankly I very much doubt that the share price will fall that much.

ATB

Pref
Last edited by PrefInvestor on May 19th, 2019, 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223055

Postby Alaric » May 19th, 2019, 10:41 pm

PrefInvestor wrote: Hence the big deal about making the charges clear and visible.


They seem to be making something of a meal on disclosing transaction costs. Why did they not do what a private investor would do and capture their dealing costs as they were incurred? Put that in the accounts and you've got an unambiguous audited number. The only remaining difficulty being what to divide by if the intent is to report it as a percentage.

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223071

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » May 20th, 2019, 6:47 am

Hi everyone, thanks for the replies,

PrefInvestor wrote:Sounds like you are new to the world of “funds”, which for ease of explanation I will include mutual funds (Open Ended Funds OEICs and Unit Trusts (UTs), investment trusts (ITs) and exchange traded funds (ETFs).

A little bit yes. The only "fund" we currently have is the "Fidelity World Equity Index Tracker". IIRC we quickly deduced that there was only a 0.34% OCF and the initial iWeb dealer commission. Many thanks for explaining the history of this mess....which it truly is! And disadvantageous to companies and investors alike.

PrefInvestor wrote:Having looked at my brokers website I can confirm that the KID for UKW gives a figure of 2.03% whereas a UKW factsheet says 1.15% and the AIC web site says 1.13%. Personally I believe the 1.13% figure to be the correct one.

Thanks for confirming this PI.

MDW1954 wrote:The AIC have been running a campaign about poorly-designed KIDs (which I've written about, and interviewed them about) and I personally wouldn't place too much reliance on a KID right now. I think it will be sorted eventually, but right now, it's a mess.

Go on the AIC site for more info.

Thanks MDW,
After a few clicks I found this link
https://www.theaic.co.uk/companydata/C9WD3/gearing
My only suggestion to the aic would be to print the charges stuff on the first "overview" tab, but once my morning brain warmed up properly I did notice the middle "Charges and Gearing" tab, which fortunately delivered the goods!

oldapple wrote:Fund Manager Ongoing charge : 1.14% £57.00
Transaction charges (buying and selling underlying investments over the year): 0.21%. £10.50
Total: 1.35% £67.50p

Yup looks like 1.13ish is the number. But what a mess that the KID even bears the Greencoat logo, but states a higher figure. For information I've written a quick email to the point of contact advised - alas by the KID itself!

To whom this may concern,

I'm considering making an investment in the "Greencoat UK Wind UKW" IT but I am finding information on the charges by Greencoat confusing. Firstly on both the Hargreaves Lansdown and the Interactive Investor sites

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... ary-shares
https://www.ii.co.uk/investment-trusts/ ... nd/LSE:UKW

state that the Annual OCF is stated as being either 1.13% - 1.14%.

However both of those sites have a hyperlink to the following KID

https://api-prod.ii.co.uk/api/1/documen ... 5ef3eb.pdf

where is stated that the ongoing costs are 1.81% + 0.22% = 2.03%

Could someone here please clarify the costs I will have deducted by Greencoat, beyond those of my ISA brokerage (iWeb, who charge £5 deal commission plus stamp duty)?

Many thanks,
...........

Thanks again for everyone's help,
Matt

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223075

Postby Alaric » May 20th, 2019, 7:26 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
where is stated that the ongoing costs are 1.81% + 0.22% = 2.03%

It's the confusing nonsense of adding borrowing costs to the charges figure. If it works, borrowing to invest adds risk not expense.
KIID wrote:The impact of the costs that we take each year for managing your investments. This is split between management fees (1.03%), fund level finance costs (0.71%) and other costs (0.07%).


Elsewhere in the KIID it says the IT may be difficult to understand. I think it's the legislators who devised the KIID who have added difficult to understand material to the fairly simple concept of an Investment Trust. Is it really "lower risk"? In price volatility terms perhaps, but it's a single sector investment so asset catastrophe risks would always be present. And where do they get the four "asset growth" scenarios from?

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223086

Postby richfool » May 20th, 2019, 9:17 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:where is stated that the ongoing costs are 1.81% + 0.22% = 2.03%

Could someone here please clarify the costs I will have deducted by Greencoat, beyond those of my ISA brokerage (iWeb, who charge £5 deal commission plus stamp duty)?

Many thanks
,

Matt, note there won't be any charges directly deducted by Greencoat. The charges/costs are related to the running of the trust and trading fees etc within the trust and thus are costs borne by the trust. The only real affect on you the investor is that they are costs to the trust and would ultimately affect its profitability/performance. Though also note that its performance in performance tables is in effect net of those costs.

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223097

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » May 20th, 2019, 9:48 am

richfool wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:where is stated that the ongoing costs are 1.81% + 0.22% = 2.03%

Could someone here please clarify the costs I will have deducted by Greencoat, beyond those of my ISA brokerage (iWeb, who charge £5 deal commission plus stamp duty)?

Many thanks
,

Matt, note there won't be any charges directly deducted by Greencoat. The charges/costs are related to the running of the trust and trading fees etc within the trust and thus are costs borne by the trust.

Thanks Rich, it's just really annoying to see the 1.14 vs 2.03% figures banded around on the public domain.

So trying to translate what you are saying into real life, if hypothetically speaking I purchase £1000 worth of UKW, and I'd separately covered the commision and the stamp with iWeb, then given what they are currently yielding (4.94%) as outlined here:

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... ary-shares

then in a year's time (presumably they don't change the DPS at all in that time), then we'd see £49.40 of cash flow in our ISA (and the capital at whatever as valued on the market place).

In the other words, the internal costs are completely within the IT itself and aren't visible when one sees the cash history and current valuation in one's account. Sound about right?

But we still have to see the confusing figures in the KIID because these firms (i.e. Greencoat) have been told to be more transparent in their operation, and to come up with "something?"

Sorry to really labour the point, just want to get it all figured out,
thanks Matt

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223107

Postby PrefInvestor » May 20th, 2019, 10:44 am

Hi Again Matt,

Hypothetically lets say you decide to buy 700 shares which roughly equates to your £1000.

To buy the shares I reckon is going to cost you 700 shares @137.4 (actually the buy price at the point you execute the trade) = £961.8 (say) + Brokers fee (£5 you said) + Stamp duty (£4.80, 0.5% of £961.8) = £971.6 (total).

Immediately you’ve executed the trade you will own 700 shares valued at 700*137 (the sell price at the point that you execute the trade) = £959 (say), so you will have lost £971.6-£959 pounds = ~£12.60 in making the purchase (combination of broker fee + stamp duty + bid/offer spread).

Thereafter of course, as with all shares, at any point in time your holding will be worth 700 * whatever the selling price of UKW is at that time..

UKW have stated that their target is to pay 6.94p (DPS) in total in dividends over the year (the 4.94% yield figure on HL is just an estimate based on the DPS / share price). They normally pay the same amount each quarter (Feb, May, Aug, Nov) but next years figures will hopefully be uprated by inflation again. But if not then you should just receive your 6.94p (1.735p a quarter) after the 4 payment dates for a total of 700*6.94=£48.58.

Don’t think I’ve made any mistakes there, but no guarantees !. That’s my understanding of how it all works anyway !.

Hope that helps.

ATB

Pref

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223114

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » May 20th, 2019, 11:23 am

PrefInvestor wrote:Hi Again Matt,

Hypothetically lets say you decide to buy 700 shares which roughly equates to your £1000.

To buy the shares I reckon is going to cost you 700 shares @137.4 (actually the buy price at the point you execute the trade) = £961.8 (say) + Brokers fee (£5 you said) + Stamp duty (£4.80, 0.5% of £961.8) = £971.6 (total).

Immediately you’ve executed the trade you will own 700 shares valued at 700*137 (the sell price at the point that you execute the trade) = £959 (say), so you will have lost £971.6-£959 pounds = ~£12.60 in making the purchase (combination of broker fee + stamp duty + bid/offer spread).

Thereafter of course, as with all shares, at any point in time your holding will be worth 700 * whatever the selling price of UKW is at that time..

UKW have stated that their target is to pay 6.94p (DPS) in total in dividends over the year (the 4.94% yield figure on HL is just an estimate based on the DPS / share price). They normally pay the same amount each quarter (Feb, May, Aug, Nov) but next years figures will hopefully be uprated by inflation again. But if not then you should just receive your 6.94p (1.735p a quarter) after the 4 payment dates for a total of 700*6.94=£48.58.

Don’t think I’ve made any mistakes there, but no guarantees !. That’s my understanding of how it all works anyway !.

Hope that helps.

ATB

Pref

Brilliant, thanks for taking the time to create the illustration!

Given the yield and the steady capital appreciation of UKW, I'm considering investing in this IT quite soon. I've decided to *probably* not purchase with this months savings (have got my eyes on a couple FTSE250s), but I think what I may do is sell our NG. shares when the price next rises over our overall buy price (i.e. the one incl. of costs), which we aren't particularly far off at present, and use the funds to purchase some UKW (if I can get it at about it's average price vs NAV), since I'm starting to think that UKW is probably a better way, more future proof, of adding the "energy sector" diversity into our foli.

Matt

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223119

Postby PrefInvestor » May 20th, 2019, 11:35 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:Brilliant, thanks for taking the time to create the illustration!

Given the yield and the steady capital appreciation of UKW, I'm considering investing in this IT quite soon. I've decided to *probably* not purchase with this months savings (have got my eyes on a couple FTSE250s), but I think what I may do is sell our NG. shares when the price next rises over our overall buy price (i.e. the one incl. of costs), which we aren't particularly far off at present, and use the funds to purchase some UKW (if I can get it at about it's average price vs NAV), since I'm starting to think that UKW is probably a better way, more future proof, of adding the "energy sector" diversity into our foli.

Matt


No problem, dont think I've made any mistakes. If I have someone will soon shout Im sure.

A couple of comments on your choice of UKW though:-
a) Though the price has come down (due to the offer) its still the most expensive of the renewable ITs AND as of today its yield is the lowest.
b) Try doing a comparison of all of the renewable energy trusts on AIC, just do a filter on "Sector Specialist Infrastructure - Renewable Energy". All of the ITs in this area should come up and you can compare yields, gearing, premium etc.
c) If your heart is still set on UKW why not try contacting the people organising this latest share offer ?. Who knows you might be able to buy then at 133 without stamp duty or commission, thats the only reason that Im doing it. Cant guarantee that obviously, but might be worth a try ?.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

ATB

Pref

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223128

Postby richfool » May 20th, 2019, 12:11 pm

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:Thanks Rich, it's just really annoying to see the 1.14 vs 2.03% figures banded around on the public domain.

So trying to translate what you are saying into real life, if hypothetically speaking I purchase £1000 worth of UKW, and I'd separately covered the commision and the stamp with iWeb, then given what they are currently yielding (4.94%) as outlined here:

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... ary-shares

then in a year's time (presumably they don't change the DPS at all in that time), then we'd see £49.40 of cash flow in our ISA (and the capital at whatever as valued on the market place).

In the other words, the internal costs are completely within the IT itself and aren't visible when one sees the cash history and current valuation in one's account. Sound about right?

Yes, exactly that, Matt.

The fact they quote these costs (in KID's etc) is that they are being pressed to be as transparent as possible and also to enable investors to compare one trust's running costs with another. (As PrefInvestors demonstrates/illustrates in his scenario). They do not directly affect the dividends, nor the performance quoted, as such costs are borne by the fund/trust. You get your dividend just like you get from a stock. For example, Unilever bear the cost of their advertising, - it's not directly deducted from shareholders holdings or dividends, though it would show in their company accounts and if they spent too much on it could impair their overall performance.

Some investors might take issue with a trust that "churned" or traded its holdings too often, because that would increase the transaction costs borne by the trust. Thus figures in the KID are intended to help investors make those sorts of comparisons. I think the (EU ;) ) regulatory body has gone a bit overboard in their pursuit of transparency, to the detriment of IT's..

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223150

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » May 20th, 2019, 12:53 pm

PrefInvestor wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:Brilliant, thanks for taking the time to create the illustration!

Given the yield and the steady capital appreciation of UKW, I'm considering investing in this IT quite soon. I've decided to *probably* not purchase with this months savings (have got my eyes on a couple FTSE250s), but I think what I may do is sell our NG. shares when the price next rises over our overall buy price (i.e. the one incl. of costs), which we aren't particularly far off at present, and use the funds to purchase some UKW (if I can get it at about it's average price vs NAV), since I'm starting to think that UKW is probably a better way, more future proof, of adding the "energy sector" diversity into our foli.

Matt


No problem, dont think I've made any mistakes. If I have someone will soon shout Im sure.

A couple of comments on your choice of UKW though:-
a) Though the price has come down (due to the offer) its still the most expensive of the renewable ITs AND as of today its yield is the lowest.
b) Try doing a comparison of all of the renewable energy trusts on AIC, just do a filter on "Sector Specialist Infrastructure - Renewable Energy". All of the ITs in this area should come up and you can compare yields, gearing, premium etc.

Thanks Pref,

TBH I've not cast my RenewableITs net out particularly far. I have only done scant research on UKW, TRIG and JLEN. I downloaded the last ARs for the three and tried to do a fag packet Return on Equity calculation on them all, and IIRC UKW seemed the strongest, and then I saw the offer induced price fall and ummed and ahhed about lobbing it into the range of hopefuls I've got for the end of the month "try and wing a crafty limit buy order" purchase that I usually try on.

c) If your heart is still set on UKW why not try contacting the people organising this latest share offer ?. Who knows you might be able to buy then at 133 without stamp duty or commission, thats the only reason that Im doing it. Cant guarantee that obviously, but might be worth a try ?.

Not sure this is a flyer, since we want to stay inside our ISAs.

Matt

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223237

Postby MDW1954 » May 20th, 2019, 6:21 pm

@MCB:

I own shares in UKW. Others have explained charges to you, so I won't belabour the point. Suffice to say, they work in the same way as your existing tracker. They are not a cash cost that appears in your account.

UKW's dividend is very well covered, with growth linked to RPI. That is both a good thing, and a bad thing. Good because it's almost a guarantee, so tight is the link*, and good because RPI is better than CPI. Bad because the board seem pretty clear that it will never be more than RPI.

MDW1954

*= I hope I don't have to explain why, and that you know why this is.

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223745

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » May 22nd, 2019, 5:42 pm

Does anyone here know when (if at all) Greencoat UKW last did a share issue?

Or even better can anyone figure out how much longer the SP is likely to fall for?

Yes, I'm trying to figure when to bid. Could do with it being on Monday....when I next get paid....or maybe sooner if my NG. shares get to 830-840.

Matt

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223748

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » May 22nd, 2019, 5:47 pm

Must admit I'm sorely tempted to raid the savings, and buy now. They seem to have dropped off pretty nice now.

Opinions?

Matt

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223789

Postby PrefInvestor » May 22nd, 2019, 8:17 pm

Hi Matt, Have a read of the offer prospectus and timetable which can obtain from the LSE page for UKW, look in the RNS section. Those taking up the offer must have submitted their request by 11:00 on 28th May, in fact my broker required me to submit my order by 12:00 this Thursday 24th May. The new shares will be issued at 133p and I doubt the market price will go that low, but nothing is impossible I guess.

UKWs last placing was in February 2019 (just look at the RNS list for the full details). That was at 127p and for institutional investors only as I recall. I remember thinking that the share price might fall back to close to 127p and set a limit order to buy at 128.5p, but it never got filled.... make of that what you will for this time around.

ATB

Pref

PS Still not clear to me why you are so set on this renewable energy trust when their are cheaper stocks with higher yields available. For me I’m just topping up on a stock where I have only a small holding as it’s a good deal, I already have more of most of the others......

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223839

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » May 23rd, 2019, 6:09 am

PrefInvestor wrote:UKWs last placing was in February 2019 (just look at the RNS list for the full details). That was at 127p and for institutional investors only as I recall. I remember thinking that the share price might fall back to close to 127p and set a limit order to buy at 128.5p, but it never got filled.... make of that what you will for this time around.

Hi Pref,

Thanks for the SP tip.

Matt

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Re: Investing in Green Infrastructure Funds (ITs)

#223847

Postby PrefInvestor » May 23rd, 2019, 7:04 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
PrefInvestor wrote:UKWs last placing was in February 2019 (just look at the RNS list for the full details). That was at 127p and for institutional investors only as I recall. I remember thinking that the share price might fall back to close to 127p and set a limit order to buy at 128.5p, but it never got filled.... make of that what you will for this time around.

Hi Pref,

Thanks for the SP tip.

Matt


Well the SP might continue to go lower (market is pretty depressed ATM) or it might not, no way to say for sure. And no guarantee that what happened to the SP around the last offer will necessarily be repeated either obviously.

Good luck if you decide to buy.

ATB

Pref


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