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Invest vs Mortgage

Stocks and Shares ISA , Choosing funds for ISA's, risk factors for funds etc
Investment strategy discussions not dealt with elsewhere.
ppk79
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Invest vs Mortgage

#380575

Postby ppk79 » January 25th, 2021, 12:32 pm

Hi All,

Great forum - have spent many hours digesting all the wonderful inputs.

First post - looking for advice and guidance from those much wiser :)

The wife and I are in our early 40's and have 2 children (11, 8) to put through education etc. Currently have £350k in the bank - £200k being used to offset our mortgage plus another £150k cash earning no interest. This has only been the case for the last 6 months. The plan was never to leave the surplus in the bank as savings rates are peanuts!

We have already topped up our ISA’s and kids JISA’s and plan do the same come April. In the meantime, I was thinking of moving the surplus into a Stock & Shares account to invest in 8-10 IT’s. However, I am now thinking of moving more as our mortgage interest rate is base rate + 0.49%, we have 19 years left, are on interest only and don’t foresee a problem covering the mortgage as I work F/T. So why not let the money grow given current low rates…

Our ISA’s are spread across various stocks, IT’s and funds - most of these are based on recommendations from family members and have done well. I’ve never invested outside of an ISA therefore am looking for:

1. Recommendations on IT’s and funds (open to shares & dividends).
2. Recommendations on Platform - we currently have ISA’s and SIPP with HL (who we are happy with) however would be good to consider others as I believe fees for holding funds is a percentage therefore could be significantly more.
3. Thoughts on how I should spread the £200k vs £150k inc. how much should I keep in the bank noting we have £5-6k coming in each month and managed to save £2-3k each month.
4. Thoughts on how to extract any profit i.e. should I leave profit to grow if I don’t need the money or should I extract profits each tax year up to the CGT allowance? Obviously I don’t want to leave the £200k for 19 years then sell £200k+ (to pay the mortgage off) and capital gains tax.

Inputs are much appreciated. Please let me know if you need any further info.

Thanks in advance

jonesa1
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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#380580

Postby jonesa1 » January 25th, 2021, 12:46 pm

Whether (and how) you should invest the £200k (mortgage offset cash) depends totally on your attitude to risk. Currently you're in the position of knowing you could pay off the mortgage if necessary (e.g. interest rates rise, loss of income).Investing the money instead (which could be by moving to a more expensive house instead of buying stocks) is likely to make you wealthier in the long term, but there's a risk (hopefully small) the £200k will fall significantly in value and not recover the loss for a long time. Providing you're both OK (and able to sleep soundly) with that risk, then go for it. Personally, I paid off the mortgage early and found that quite liberating.

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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#380585

Postby staffordian » January 25th, 2021, 1:07 pm

You touch on CGT.

If you put large sums into ITs outside ISA protection, I would certainly keep an eye on any gains and aim to realise them annually, perhaps in conjunction with a bed and ISA strategy to get as much protected from tax.

Putting £40k pa into his and her ISAs should enable the bulk to be sheltered with little or no tax even given the current rate of saving.

I know little or nothing about SIPPs or personal pensions in general, but possibly this is an avenue for a part of the cash, though obviously not the offset monies or any rainy day funds.

I meant to add, some consider a full slug of premium bonds worth a punt, with no tax implications on any winnings, and, of course, the money is safe and quickly available if needed.

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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#380593

Postby Urbandreamer » January 25th, 2021, 1:21 pm

You say that ISA's and JISA's are sorted, so you seem to be talking about investing outside a tax wrapper.

In many ways this makes the issue of HL's fee's a lot simpler. You could open a dealing accounts with more than one provider and see how they compare for service. HL have a good reputation, but they charge quite a bit. I quite like A J Bell, check out their fees. Their calculator does a comparison with HL. It seems to show that HL is more expensive for ISA's and SIPP's, but they seem to also imply that HL doesn't charge for using a dealing account.

The issues of investing outside a tax wriapper are dividend tax and the possibility of captal gains tax. Dividend tax will be your key concern. You may have to slant things towards investments that pay little or no dividend. You will also have to keep good records of what you buy and at how much in case you get close to exceeding the CGT allowance. People who invest outside of tax wrappers find that they sell for no other reason than to crystalise a gain/loss within a given tax year.

I think that many platforms charge extra for Unit trusts or the ilk. Hence I recomend that you stick to your idea of IT's or ETF's. A passive ETF tracker is what many might recommend.

Rarther than give advice on IT's and/or shares I'll list a few that I or my family have. Most of the shares that I have pay good dividends, which may cause you tax issues. I'll also avoid the IT's that pay good dividends.

IT's
Scottish Mortigage (Yield 0.27%)
Pacific Horizons (currently on a premium, ie you pay £1.10 for £1 of assets, Yield 0.03%)
BMO Global Smaller Companies (formally run by FC, Yield 1.17%)
F & C (FCIT, yield 1.49%)

Shares.
Frontier developments (No dividend)
Keyword studios (Yield 0.02%)

Hope that you find the above of some interest, but note that you are accepting some significant risks.

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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#380635

Postby Joe45 » January 25th, 2021, 3:38 pm

I always suggest that before you do anything invest £20 in a good book on investing (eg Tim Hale).

It makes sense to make use of today’s incredibly low mortgage rates to effectively leverage your investing power. The trade off is risk, and only you can determine what you are comfortable with. That said, I was fortunate to receive a legacy in my early 30s and have been mortgage-free ever since. It is certainly very liberating. Perhaps you could do a bit of both.

I don’t invest on the basis of recommendations from family, friends or anonymous bloggers. I’m a complete Bogle Head, and I am 100% ultra low-cost global trackers (equities and bonds).

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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#380651

Postby Arborbridge » January 25th, 2021, 4:42 pm

Whenever one listens to "experts" on Money Box or similar programs, their advice is also to pay down the mortgage. In my view, this is muddle headed, especially with today's low interest rates.
If I had paid down my mortgage with every last pound I had available, I do not believe I would ever have started investing.

The question to ask is (as previous posters have written) is the one about risk. However, there are funds which have lower risk profiles and which give a high degree of probability that over time you would gain. An example might be a fund which invests partly in corporate bonds and partly in equities. I have such a fund where I have stashed cash "for later" and it is paying me around 5% and has not given me any capital shocks. Something like this might be a good place to park some of the cash, with the rest being invested for bigger potential gain at higher risk.

The other thing to remember is that once you pay off the mortgage, although it might be liberating, you've also loss use of the cash.

Arb.

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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#380656

Postby tjh290633 » January 25th, 2021, 4:58 pm

You are talking about concerns for CGT. The increase in value of an individual holding is unlikely to reach the threshold for CGT in the short term, unless you have a very considerable account in each one. Bear in mind that share values can rise and fall.

Currently the limit is £12,300, so if you put about £10,000 in each IT or other share, then periodically switching from one to another would eliminate your liability on that share. Bed and ISA can also be used if you have the allowances available for either of you. The gain would have to be more than double your original stake, so if you used 25 ITs, and the growth rate was 7%pa, then you might expect the value to double every 10 years or so. Probably switching a couple every year would work, then the next year you could switch back into those shares from another two.

Choose a platform with flat brokerage fees and the overhead cost would not be too much.

TJH

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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#380857

Postby flyer61 » January 26th, 2021, 11:00 am

ppk

as someone who has done is doing what you are thinking about here is what I have been up to.

I am paying £63 per £100k of mortgage per month ergo £756 per year for £100k of borrowing. Like you I work. My ISA portfolio is big enough to pay off my mortgage however it forms part of my retirement planning. The equity in my house is circa 50%.

6/7 years ago I started a two pronged attack that aimed to comfortably beat the cost of the borrowing and leave a pot that would take care of the mortgage.

Firstly I set up a significant monthly standing order to Fundsmith. If I was starting again I would do this again without hesitation.

Secondly I went to town on VCT's. My VCT portfolio is about 13% of my total financial worth.

I am about there! However, realise that it will take time to sell the VCT portfolio. I probably won't pay off the mortgage but continue to cycle the significant dividend income from the VCT's into other asset classes. I am at the stage where I am selling VCT's and buying more to make use of the tax relief on offer.

just my two penny's worth. I doubt an IFA would recommend this but it suits me.

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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#380888

Postby paulnumbers » January 26th, 2021, 12:16 pm

I'll tell you what I do, it's all personal though.

Anything I earn over £50k goes into a SIPP, that way I effectively get taxed (in the long run) at 15% on that money instead of 45%. That is quite a significant difference, and makes a significant difference to my long term wealth.

Anything I don't spend from my £50k earnings gets paid off the mortgage.

Be aware that for someone in their early 40's, you've only got 15 years before you can access a SIPP, it's not *that* tied up.

ppk79
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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#380984

Postby ppk79 » January 26th, 2021, 4:45 pm

All,

Many thanks for taking the time to respond, some useful points for us to think about.

@jonesa1 - We’d like to move to a bigger house but it’s a choice between being mortgage free and not having to worry about losing my job etc OR having more space and paying a mortgage for the next 15-20 years. We decided to stay put and make the money work for us hence the questions.
Re: attitude to risk - we understand that the value can fall however based on our experience with ISA investments over the last 15 years, the value has normally recovered or grown. Given we have 19 years left on the mortgage, I’m hoping the £200k can grown into something bigger. If there is a shortfall at the end, we have other saving we can use to make up the difference however this is a worse case scenario.

@staffordian - Already have a SIPP and a work pension therefore will need to keep on the annual allowance, will check my calculations. I may consider keeping some of the £200k in PB’s just as a safe haven. Thanks for the tip on keeping an eye on gains.

@Urbandreamer - You raise a good point on dividend tax, I guess I would need to keep this to £2k tax free allowance in any given tax year? Point noted regarding keeping a good record for CGT. Sounds like I should crystallise gains/losses before the end of the tax year.
Any recommendation for a passive ETF or two?
Re: IT’s - Have SMT, it keeps on going so may invest more. Will look at the others.
Re: Shares - Also have FDEV, planning to hold for long term. May buy more if/when it dips. Will take a look at Keyword studios.

@Joe45 - Fair point on risk. Any recommendation for ultra low cost global trackers?

@Arb - My thinking exactly. My target was to have enough to pay my mortgage off if I chose to do so. I’m grateful I reached that point at my age however my thinking over the last few years is to make my money work for me. Do you mind sharing the fund you have mentioned please?

@TJH - Point noted on switching a couple every year and flat brokerage fees.

@flyer61 - Very similar position to us.
Re: Fundsmith - which one if you don’t mind me asking? Do you mind giving me an idea of the returns you have seen with the monthly setup? We obviously have the lump sum so when to drop this in is the question.
Re: VCT’s - We invested in Octopus a few years back and get the occasional dividends. My only concern is how easily I can sell the VCT after the 5 year mark. We have a family member that makes use of this every year to reduce their SA tax bill.

@paulnumbers - I have a company pension that I’m trying to max out using the annual allowance and previous 3 years unused allowance (before Pension relief is likely changed). Would you mind explaining your numbers for your SIPP please, I’m not sure I follow 45% down to 15%.

Thanks, ppk79

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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#380993

Postby Joe45 » January 26th, 2021, 5:09 pm

ppk79 wrote:All,

Many thanks for taking the time to respond, some useful points for us to think about.

@jonesa1 - We’d like to move to a bigger house but it’s a choice between being mortgage free and not having to worry about losing my job etc OR having more space and paying a mortgage for the next 15-20 years. We decided to stay put and make the money work for us hence the questions.
Re: attitude to risk - we understand that the value can fall however based on our experience with ISA investments over the last 15 years, the value has normally recovered or grown. Given we have 19 years left on the mortgage, I’m hoping the £200k can grown into something bigger. If there is a shortfall at the end, we have other saving we can use to make up the difference however this is a worse case scenario.

@staffordian - Already have a SIPP and a work pension therefore will need to keep on the annual allowance, will check my calculations. I may consider keeping some of the £200k in PB’s just as a safe haven. Thanks for the tip on keeping an eye on gains.

@Urbandreamer - You raise a good point on dividend tax, I guess I would need to keep this to £2k tax free allowance in any given tax year? Point noted regarding keeping a good record for CGT. Sounds like I should crystallise gains/losses before the end of the tax year.
Any recommendation for a passive ETF or two?
Re: IT’s - Have SMT, it keeps on going so may invest more. Will look at the others.
Re: Shares - Also have FDEV, planning to hold for long term. May buy more if/when it dips. Will take a look at Keyword studios.

@Joe45 - Fair point on risk. Any recommendation for ultra low cost global trackers?

@Arb - My thinking exactly. My target was to have enough to pay my mortgage off if I chose to do so. I’m grateful I reached that point at my age however my thinking over the last few years is to make my money work for me. Do you mind sharing the fund you have mentioned please?

@TJH - Point noted on switching a couple every year and flat brokerage fees.

@flyer61 - Very similar position to us.
Re: Fundsmith - which one if you don’t mind me asking? Do you mind giving me an idea of the returns you have seen with the monthly setup? We obviously have the lump sum so when to drop this in is the question.
Re: VCT’s - We invested in Octopus a few years back and get the occasional dividends. My only concern is how easily I can sell the VCT after the 5 year mark. We have a family member that makes use of this every year to reduce their SA tax bill.

@paulnumbers - I have a company pension that I’m trying to max out using the annual allowance and previous 3 years unused allowance (before Pension relief is likely changed). Would you mind explaining your numbers for your SIPP please, I’m not sure I follow 45% down to 15%.

Thanks, ppk79

HSBC, Fidelity or Vanguard.

Gerry557
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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#381105

Postby Gerry557 » January 27th, 2021, 8:12 am

You are in a relatively good position. Mortgage covered and excess savings and income.

Look on the monivator website they did ask the same question and there is learning and experience to be had.

Should you do it is a question only you can answer based on feedback and your own gut feelings. Many choose to pay off the mortgage to get that weight off their sholders. Than seems to be a bit lower on your priority list if you are considering investing the lot.

You have options, invest the surplus cash, £150k and then add the excess income over time. No shoulders to worry about, time to learn your investing brain, smaller cgt and tax complications.

You need to have 6 months access to outgoings, in case of emergency. You both loose jobs etc. 6x3 =18k unless you can cut outgoings further. You can calculate this more accurately. Don't include your shares with this, they are likely to fall just as you need them, think financial crash and covid. The offset also allows access to further cash should you need it unless you empty it.

You should be looking to get more into ISAs, make the income producing ones stay in the wrapper, then used that income to add more. This can suck up 40k or so a year for both of you. Accumulation funds outside the wrapper means less tax on income. Cgt is more generous assuming you are not using it elsewhere.

The numbers you are looking at means a flat rate brokers would be cheaper for you in the long run. Iweb or Interactive investor, again monivator has an item on this with tables. Look at where you are likely to be rather than where you are now. I found HL far to expensive.

You haven't mentioned any thoughts on moving house or upgrading with a growing family, another thought to bear in mind. It looks like uni cost can be covered by surplus income.... Currently.

Others have covered various options on outside ISA investing. Topping up pension, Premium bonds are other tax efficient options. The pair of you could put 60k in Premium bonds and hope for the big one or better than your savings. At worst a loss to inflation.

The final thought is how to pay off the mortgage, you have time now so no rush but you don't want to end up in a position having to sell up to find £200k just when the market has dropped, you have no jobs, the kids uni costs kick in etc. Tax rates can also change. What if cgt is scrapped or lowered etc.

If you empty the offset you need to work out a strategy about how you will pay it off. Max cgt yearly, monthly top ups from income, new endowment.

Shares can go down as well as up and some can dissappear completely. Longer term investing should outweigh the low level mortgage but things can go wrong. Even funds can have issues. Think Woody recently, not great if you need to pay off the mortgage when the fund is closed.

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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#381109

Postby Parky » January 27th, 2021, 8:21 am

Gerry557 wrote:Tax rates can also change. What if cgt is scrapped or lowered etc.



Ha ha. Much more likely to increase! The capital appreciation of an unmortgaged house could be greater than a share portfolio, and is not subject to capital gains tax. The swings in value will also probably be less than a share portfolio. I would go for paying off the mortgage.

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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#381118

Postby staffordian » January 27th, 2021, 9:00 am

Gerry557 wrote: Accumulation funds outside the wrapper means less tax on income.

I may be wrong on this, but isn't the general view that accumulation units are more complex outside tax wrappers than income units as the income is still there and needs to be accounted for but is hidden and therefore hard to calculate?

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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#381121

Postby Urbandreamer » January 27th, 2021, 9:12 am

Parky wrote:Ha ha. Much more likely to increase! The capital appreciation of an unmortgaged house could be greater than a share portfolio, and is not subject to capital gains tax. The swings in value will also probably be less than a share portfolio. I would go for paying off the mortgage.


Wrong, or at least not fully specified. You DO pay CGT on houses. However there is an exemption for the home that you live in.

Sure the OP is talking about his home, rather than any house, but you seem to be makeing a general statement.

FWIW, I have both invested and paid off mortgage capital in the past. However I have in the past been paying double digit interest rates. It's difficult to outperform those sort of returns by investing.

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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#381122

Postby paulnumbers » January 27th, 2021, 9:12 am

@paulnumbers - I have a company pension that I’m trying to max out using the annual allowance and previous 3 years unused allowance (before Pension relief is likely changed). Would you mind explaining your numbers for your SIPP please, I’m not sure I follow 45% down to 15%.


So I compare what I can get now vs what I'll ultimately get from the pension.

I run my own company and get paid in dividends, so the top slice of income looks like...

£100 turnover minus £19 corporation tax minus £26 income income tax = £55 in the pocket.

or,

£100 into pension, at 57 years old get 25% tax free and pay 20% tax on £75 = £85 in the pocket.

So, swapping 45% for 15%

You can do the same calculation for yourself to see the benefit, if you're an employee, I'd guess the benefit is greater as employee are taxed more.

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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#381157

Postby Gerry557 » January 27th, 2021, 10:38 am

My last post was written yesterday and missed your reply. I mistakenly only previewed the post instead of posting, corrected this morning.

One other clarification, is your mortgage rate for life or until a set date. I assumed it was for life

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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#381160

Postby Gerry557 » January 27th, 2021, 10:56 am

staffordian wrote:
Gerry557 wrote: Accumulation funds outside the wrapper means less tax on income.

I may be wrong on this, but isn't the general view that accumulation units are more complex outside tax wrappers than income units as the income is still there and needs to be accounted for but is hidden and therefore hard to calculate?


This is no or relatively small amounts of income with accumulation funds so no dividend income to worry about unless over the £2k allowance. The fund reinvests this for you so the unit price rises compared to the equivalent income fund.

When you sell, then it's liable to any cgt over the allowance. Hence comments regarding keeping an eye out.

You both have a £2k allowance and putting shares into the lower tax rate payer name would be better, 7.5% instead of 32.5%.

You would need to calculate if paying any dividend tax would still work out financially better if you get higher divi rate than mortgage after tax.

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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#381167

Postby mc2fool » January 27th, 2021, 11:14 am

Gerry557 wrote:
staffordian wrote:
Gerry557 wrote: Accumulation funds outside the wrapper means less tax on income.

I may be wrong on this, but isn't the general view that accumulation units are more complex outside tax wrappers than income units as the income is still there and needs to be accounted for but is hidden and therefore hard to calculate?

This is no or relatively small amounts of income with accumulation funds so no dividend income to worry about unless over the £2k allowance.

That's true no matter what kind of units you have, income or accumulation. As staffordian says, the notional dividend from accumulation funds is treated, tax wise, exactly the same as dividends from income funds, so there's no difference or advantage for tax purposes.

However, the complexity with accumulation funds outside a tax wrapper comes when you sell, 'cos you have to keep track of and add all those notional dividends back into your base cost when calculating CGT. If you have to hold anything outside of a wrapper, tax wise income units are just simpler.

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Re: Invest vs Mortgage

#381181

Postby ppk79 » January 27th, 2021, 11:50 am

Thanks again for all the responses.

@Joe45 - Thanks will take a look.

@Gerry557 - Valid point on emergency fund. I have another savings account that I ignore for this purpose, I will make sure it is topped up.
Re: mortgage rate - Yes, for life and the potential to reset back up to 25 years if I can be bothered to spend time on the phone with the bank.

@Parky - fair point on capital appreciation & no CGT on your home however how can you crystallise this without selling up your home?

@Urbandreamer - I would pay off the mortgage first if interest rates were double digits!
Not sure if you missed my questions earlier about recommendation for a passive ETF or two.

@paulnumbers - I understand your calcs now, thanks. I too had my own company for the last 10 years therefore contributed to a SIPP in the absence of a company pension. I now have an employee and I am trying to max out the £40k allowance + previous 3 years unused allowance before pension relief is likely to be changed in the upcoming budget. I presume you keep the contribution under £40k?

@Gerry557 @mc2fool
To confirm:
1. Acc funds will reinvest profit thus increasing the price of the fund so you have to keep track of initial buy in price - sell price = profit for CGT calculations? Not sure where the £2k allowance comes into play here, sorry if I missed it.
2. Inc fund provide dividends therefore have to manage the £2k tax free allowance/7.5%/32.5% against other income?

Another investment vehicle option would be to open a SIPP for my wife as she has no pension at all and only works P/T. She is 44 so 11 years till SIPP is accessible at 55. Thoughts?

Thanks, ppk79


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