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Huge losses going on in Bonds right now!

Stocks and Shares ISA , Choosing funds for ISA's, risk factors for funds etc
Investment strategy discussions not dealt with elsewhere.
vand
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Re: Huge losses going on in Bonds right now!

#499274

Postby vand » May 8th, 2022, 12:58 pm

JohnW wrote:
They may still have a roll to play in your portfolio if you believe that their historical correlation and therefore the benefits of holding them will persist. However, at the moment, we are seeing evidence that their relationship with risk assets may be changing.

I don’t know what correlation they’d be better off having, or what’s coming, or what relationship with equities might change. But US bonds and stocks have had a negative correlation for 20 years (about -0.4), and a positive correlation of about 0.4 for 30 years before that. During that 30 year period government bonds returned 8%/year compound growth, and more than doubled in value in real terms. Predicting what will happen from here…..good luck.
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=248325


Right. Too many people are of the erroneous view that Bonds are a straightforward hedge for falling stocks.. but it's not that simple. While that assumption has been true in the disinflationary environment that we have seen in the last couple of decades, in the past they have also been periods of positive correlation... there have been long periods where both sides of a supposedly "balanced" portfolio has done badly.

BT63
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Re: Huge losses going on in Bonds right now!

#499301

Postby BT63 » May 8th, 2022, 3:44 pm

vand wrote:... there have been long periods where both sides of a supposedly "balanced" <bonds+shares> portfolio has done badly.


Cash and especially gold were better places to be.
Both - along with bonds and shares - part of the previously mentioned Permanent Portfolio.

richfool
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Re: Huge losses going on in Bonds right now!

#511165

Postby richfool » July 1st, 2022, 2:15 pm

Upon listening to Bloomberg there seems to be the suggestion that some money is now starting to move into bonds. Would now be the right time to think of doing that, if so, would the likes of HDIV or BIPS be suitable? (Though) I suspect they are referring to government bonds.

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Re: Huge losses going on in Bonds right now!

#511168

Postby Newroad » July 1st, 2022, 2:25 pm

Hi Richfool et al.

There are various views, as you might expect. If you want a positive view (for getting back into bonds, including corporates, try and get hold of Minerd's interview* on CNBC recently).

If you're interested in a real world example (of both, government and corporate bond performance, correlation etc) you can look at my portfolio update - in particular the second post**. You could look at both vs VWRL as a proxy for correlation vs (world) equities.

Regards, Newroad

* this one: https://www.cnbc.com/video/2022/06/28/watch-cnbcs-full-interview-with-guggenheims-scott-minerd.html

** this one: https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=34988

vand
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Re: Huge losses going on in Bonds right now!

#528100

Postby vand » September 6th, 2022, 9:51 pm

Well, bonds yields across all durations have broken out to new highs recently, meaning the holder of the bonds have seen their investments fall to new lows.

and yet the case for owning bonds seems as weak as it has ever been with real rates as negative as we have seen in the last year.

I don't see an emergency energy bill rescue package from the Government as helping. The inflation that would have happened in energy will instead just move to something else - probably to higher borrowing costs as the price of digging an ever larger hole in the public finances "subsidize" energy costs.

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Re: Huge losses going on in Bonds right now!

#528329

Postby 1nvest » September 7th, 2022, 6:13 pm

vand wrote:Well, bonds yields across all durations have broken out to new highs recently, meaning the holder of the bonds have seen their investments fall to new lows.

and yet the case for owning bonds seems as weak as it has ever been with real rates as negative as we have seen in the last year.

I don't see an emergency energy bill rescue package from the Government as helping. The inflation that would have happened in energy will instead just move to something else - probably to higher borrowing costs as the price of digging an ever larger hole in the public finances "subsidize" energy costs.

£17Bn tax reduction benefit for firms as well, including energy firms. She's betting big on inward investment, but instead is more inclined to see a collapse in GDP, ingrained and high inflation, outflows (weaker Pound) all compounding a downward spiral, potentially to where another 1970's style IMF bailout is required due to the risk of the UK being unable to cover its debt interest payments. Seemingly the best the Tories have to offer is a imbecile - that is doomed to further deepen the pain. I suspect as part of the bailout that the IMF may insist that the UK stops borrowing in order to cover paying the excessive prices/profits that energy firms make in return for selling gas extracted out of the UK and delivered to UK customers. That Truss could and should have done from the offset but opted not to.

A article the other day indicated that a Scottish baker had seen their gas bill rise from £9K/year to £79K/year. Should they increase prices from £1/loaf to £9/loaf in reflection - or simply shut up shop. A situation that will be very broadly replicated across very many SME's across the UK. Will you go to the pub when its £25/pint, or for a steak meal when its £100/steak. Maybe, but only if your wages/income had risen at least three of four fold.

Bonds paying a few percent unless also inflation linked - might as well as just leave it in hard cash for what that's worth in real terms. Lend to the UK (buy Gilts) when the Pound is likely to decline a further 15% on top of the 15% its already dropped - nah! Inward investment that might strengthen the Pound would need to see massively more higher returns than the high rates of inflation and declining currency amounts. But maybe once a collapse has followed through, IMF bailout, a potential 'disaster recovery' play - and only then might the Pound turn around and inflation start to flatten off.

vand
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Re: Huge losses going on in Bonds right now!

#531580

Postby vand » September 22nd, 2022, 6:17 pm

This is required reading for those who still think the Bond market is a good predictor of inflation:

https://www.piie.com/blogs/realtime-eco ... -inflation

TLDR: Bonds yields have no better clue to the future path of inflation, and most closely correlate with past inflation. Therefore (as we have now found out) they tend to be spectacularly wrong when a secular inflationary trend reverses to disinflation (1980) or the opposite (2021).

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Re: Huge losses going on in Bonds right now!

#531632

Postby MDW1954 » September 22nd, 2022, 9:44 pm

vand wrote:This is required reading for those who still think the Bond market is a good predictor of inflation:

https://www.piie.com/blogs/realtime-eco ... -inflation

TLDR: Bonds yields have no better clue to the future path of inflation, and most closely correlate with past inflation. Therefore (as we have now found out) they tend to be spectacularly wrong when a secular inflationary trend reverses to disinflation (1980) or the opposite (2021).


Interesting article, although I had to remind myself what disinflation was, and how it differs from deflation.

Investopedia says this:

Although they may sound the same, deflation should not be confused with disinflation. Deflation is a decrease in general price levels throughout an economy, while disinflation is what happens when price inflation slows down temporarily. Deflation, which is the opposite of inflation, is mainly caused by shifts in supply and demand. Disinflation, on the other hand, shows the rate of change of inflation over time. The inflation rate is declining over time, but it remains positive.


It's a long time since I bought an economics textbook. (About 45 years!) But I may need a refresher...

MDW1954

vand
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Re: Huge losses going on in Bonds right now!

#534402

Postby vand » October 3rd, 2022, 11:00 am

UK government bond total return:

Image
https://www.vanguardinvestor.co.uk/inve ... erformance

Given that the peak price of this fund was about £190 a year ago, you now down by about -38% in real terms since then using CPI


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