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Potential ISA Limits

Stocks and Shares ISA , Choosing funds for ISA's, risk factors for funds etc
Investment strategy discussions not dealt with elsewhere.
swill453
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Potential ISA Limits

#561892

Postby swill453 » January 16th, 2023, 11:06 am

This came up in another thread but was really off-topic for there.

abrdn Financial Fairness Trust in conjunction with the Resolution Foundation have come up with a briefing paper "ISA ISA Baby - Assessing the Government’s policies to encourage household saving"

It can be found here https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/pu ... -isa-baby/

One of its recommendations is to encourage saving by lower-income families "by reducing the significant support currently going to the already-wealthy".

They propose a £100,000 cap on ISAs (both cash and stocks and shares) and use the increased tax take from that to fund an increase in generosity of the existing Help to Save scheme:

Therefore, the sensible approach would be to cap ISA amounts, which could be done in a variety of ways. It is already the case that there is an annual cap on the amount that can be added to an ISA in any given tax year (currently £20,000). But there is no cap on the total value allowed to be held in ISA accounts, nor is there a cap on the income from the value within ISA accounts. It would be administratively difficult to cap returns or income because returns from stocks and shares ISAs can vary widely and over time. A simpler approach would be to cap the total value an individual is allowed to hold across any ISAs – and when this cap is hit, either as a result of active saving into an ISA or as a result of savings income or capital gains, then an individual would no longer be able to add money to any ISA account. Setting this cap at a relatively high level, say £100,000 (£200,000 for couples), would ensure that incentives to save for those with lower savings levels were not reduced at the same time as generating additional revenue which could be used to fund an increase in generosity of the Help to Save scheme. Figure 20 provides estimates of the revenue raised by capping existing individuals’ ISA holdings at £100,000, based on taxing returns on cash ISAs as income and taxing the returns on stocks and shares ISAs as capital gains. This shows that there would be significant revenue captured even with a cap set at a very high level, and that this would exceed any plausible estimate of the cost of expanding the generosity of Help to Save. But what is also evident from Figure 20 is that taxing returns on ISAs above £100,000 would largely impact those aged 60 and above: 1.5 million people had ISA holdings above £100,000 in 2018-20, of which 1.1 million (72 per cent) were aged 60 and above.

Applying this retroactively creates a challenge for those with more than one ISA account. One approach, and the one we assume for the following policy costing, is that individuals would need to choose what accounts to withdraw in order to meet the overall £100,000 limit. It would be needed to phase this requirement in over time given some ISA products have contractual restrictions on withdrawing finances immediately. There could also be legal challenges with a retroactive approach but that is beyond the scope of this paper and there are many examples of previous retrospective changes (e.g. cutting the lifetime pensions cap).


I don't know how likely this would be to ever get put into practice, but it shows it's being talked about.

Scott.

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561895

Postby monabri » January 16th, 2023, 11:09 am

I'll round up a posse and down to Number 10....

An army of 1 million marching on Downing Street...

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561903

Postby Tedx » January 16th, 2023, 11:20 am

Personally, I think it would be better to abolish higher rate tax relief on pension contributions. Now that is a tax giveaway to the better off.

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561906

Postby Alaric » January 16th, 2023, 11:29 am

Tedx wrote:Personally, I think it would be better to abolish higher rate tax relief on pension contributions. Now that is a tax giveaway to the better off.



Unless the rules on taxation of benefits whilst in payment are changed to exclude higher rate tax, it's also a takeaway. Not much incentive to set aside assets for retirement in pension form if it gets only basic rate relief on the way in, but higher rate tax on the way out.

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561910

Postby GeoffF100 » January 16th, 2023, 11:35 am

ISA limits look inevitable. It is surprising that uncapped ISAs have survived for as long as they have. I expect Labour will trim them back. £100K is a small ISA on these boards. I would not be surprised to see most of our ISA holdings kicked out into the open, with their capital gains and dividends taxed as income.

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561914

Postby GeoffF100 » January 16th, 2023, 11:45 am

Alaric wrote:
Tedx wrote:Personally, I think it would be better to abolish higher rate tax relief on pension contributions. Now that is a tax giveaway to the better off.

Unless the rules on taxation of benefits whilst in payment are changed to exclude higher rate tax, it's also a takeaway. Not much incentive to set aside assets for retirement in pension form if it gets only basic rate relief on the way in, but higher rate tax on the way out.

There are some who would say that tax relief should not be provided to build up pensions that are so big that the pensioner pays higher rate tax in retirement.

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561922

Postby stevensfo » January 16th, 2023, 12:13 pm

GeoffF100 wrote:ISA limits look inevitable. It is surprising that uncapped ISAs have survived for as long as they have. I expect Labour will trim them back. £100K is a small ISA on these boards. I would not be surprised to see most of our ISA holdings kicked out into the open, with their capital gains and dividends taxed as income.


£100K is a small ISA on these boards.

Quite! I started off saving approx 20 quid a month into a Halifax Sharebuilder account when I was a lowly and underpaid lab technician and thankfully discovered TMF and then ss ISAs. Always been a saver, never bought a fast car, average holidays with the kids, very much LBYM, thought mainly about safety and security when I stopped work.

Somehow, I can't imagine ISAs being cut as drastically as that, let alone retrospectively. The backlash could result in emotions rising from 'a bit miffed' to 'really cheesed off!' ;)

More likely to be a simple rule for all 'new' ISAs. After all, those with larger ISAs are mainly us boomers who, in any case, will see their ISAs fleeced for 40% IHT. Given the state of the NHS, probably sooner rather than later. :(

Steve

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561928

Postby Alaric » January 16th, 2023, 12:20 pm

GeoffF100 wrote:There are some who would say that tax relief should not be provided to build up pensions that are so big that the pensioner pays higher rate tax in retirement.

If tax allowances remain frozen then a lot more people are who would not regard themselves as particularly "rich" are going to hit the 40% tax threshold provided their wages, salaries or pensions are revalued in line with price increases.

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561929

Postby swill453 » January 16th, 2023, 12:23 pm

The practicalities of reducing everyone's stocks and shares ISA to £100,000 would be difficult. Right now the only way to get anything out of an ISA is to liquidate it and withdraw the cash. Can you imagine the market chaos if all the shares in ISAs over £100,000 were sold on one particular day?

I guess they might come up with a (new) way of transferring to a non-ISA account, but it's not going to be simple.

Scott.

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561932

Postby mike » January 16th, 2023, 12:31 pm

For people who, as I have, have organised their retirement income via ISAs, rather than a traditional pension, this would be a very hard blow.

Pension savers have their tax relief on contributions, but their income is taxed as it is taken.

ISA savers paid their contributions from taxed income, but got their tax relief as income is taken.

It would seem grossly unfair to those who are no longer in a position to change their retirement plans to have the rug pulled out like that.

Wishful thinking here
- could this apply to only to those under retirement age ?
- or freeze existing ISAs worth over £x to new contributions ?
- or make available a conversion from ISA to pension/SIPP with tax relief ?

Just thinking out loud so ISA retirees are not strongly disadvantaged with respect to pension retirees.

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561933

Postby Alaric » January 16th, 2023, 12:33 pm

swill453 wrote:The practicalities of reducing everyone's stocks and shares ISA to £100,000 would be difficult..



There's probably a simple solution. That would be to impose a wealth tax on the value of the ISA with a £ 100,000 per person exemption. Easy to enforce as well, given the reporting that ISA managers are required to do. Not a policy designed to win elections if support is needed from those of modest wealth.

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561942

Postby Wuffle » January 16th, 2023, 12:50 pm

Seems unlikely to me that they would shoot themselves in the foot by reducing the interest, dividend and CGT allowances ...... then cap ISA's.
The revenue would choke.
That assumes the unwashed would even know what CGT was (because we don't want financial education on the curriculum do we - who knows what they might find out).
Nicking a few % off the high rate / low rate arbitrage seems easier.
Or don't cap NI.
Lots of things, which brings me back to what might be found out.

W.

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561948

Postby Adamski » January 16th, 2023, 1:01 pm

I doubt they'd raise as much as they think by setting isa limits.

Proactive investors such as here would actively manage their investments to minimise capital gains, and shift investments from high yield to growth/zero dividend to avoid dividend tax. It would end the High yield portfolio.

It's the dilemma for all wealth taxing measures. Arguably we are atvthe peak of the laffer curve already, and tax raising measures lead to less income to the treasury, as people will engage in tax avoiding behaviours, and act as a disincentive to add income.

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561954

Postby Adamski » January 16th, 2023, 1:18 pm

Point these socialist think tanks miss is the only reason I/maybe you started saving into an ISA is because in my old job they closed our FS pension scheme. If we in the private sector had FS schemes like they do in the public sector then we wouldn't need risky stock market savings.

Has the resolution foundation dreamt up ways of taxing public sector pensions, and our hard working public servants? No, it's always private sector workers getting shafted.

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561955

Postby scrumpyjack » January 16th, 2023, 1:18 pm

swill453 wrote:abrdn Financial Fairness Trust in conjunction with the Resolution Foundation


Yawn, 2 left wing pressure groups spouting more drivel again and dressing it up as objective comment!

Irritating that these sort of groups manage to get charitable status and so end up being subsidised by us taxpayers.

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561957

Postby GeoffF100 » January 16th, 2023, 1:19 pm

swill453 wrote:The practicalities of reducing everyone's stocks and shares ISA to £100,000 would be difficult. Right now the only way to get anything out of an ISA is to liquidate it and withdraw the cash. Can you imagine the market chaos if all the shares in ISAs over £100,000 were sold on one particular day?

I guess they might come up with a (new) way of transferring to a non-ISA account, but it's not going to be simple.

It would not be particularly difficult, e.g. if your ISA was £1 million on 6 April and the limit was £100K, then 10% of your capital gains, dividends and interest would be tax free for the following tax year. The CGT rules are more complicated than that already.

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561970

Postby Lootman » January 16th, 2023, 1:42 pm

stevensfo wrote:More likely to be a simple rule for all 'new' ISAs. After all, those with larger ISAs are mainly us boomers who, in any case, will see their ISAs fleeced for 40% IHT.

Ironic if the total tax take is less because ISAs are cashed out and funds diverted to IHT avoidance strategies.

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561973

Postby mike » January 16th, 2023, 1:49 pm

mike wrote:For people who, as I have, have organised their retirement income via ISAs, rather than a traditional pension, this would be a very hard blow.

Pension savers have their tax relief on contributions, but their income is taxed as it is taken.

ISA savers paid their contributions from taxed income, but got their tax relief as income is taken.

It would seem grossly unfair to those who are no longer in a position to change their retirement plans to have the rug pulled out like that.

Wishful thinking here
- could this apply to only to those under retirement age ?
- or freeze existing ISAs worth over £x to new contributions ?
- or make available a conversion from ISA to pension/SIPP with tax relief ?

Just thinking out loud so ISA retirees are not strongly disadvantaged with respect to pension retirees.


Bad form to reply to one's own post, but just had another thought to add to my wishful thinking so ISA retirees are not disadvantaged with respect to pension retirees.

- make the combined value limit of pension and ISA savings equal to the pension Lifetime Allowance (currently slightly over £1,000,000)

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561978

Postby Dod101 » January 16th, 2023, 1:54 pm

I think that they would have to leave existing ISAs as they are but put a limit on ISAs currently under the new limit (which would surely be more than £100,000.) I have to say that I am sympathetic to the idea of imposing a limit for an ISA because I have paid very little tax for some years now and that genuinely does not seem very logical.

Dod

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Re: Potential ISA Limits

#561981

Postby SebsCat » January 16th, 2023, 2:03 pm

swill453 wrote: Can you imagine the market chaos if all the shares in ISAs over £100,000 were sold on one particular day?

It wouldn't be on a particular day, but even if it were, I would be amazed if the market even noticed.


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