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Avoiding Pooled Nominee Accounts

Stocks and Shares ISA , Choosing funds for ISA's, risk factors for funds etc
Investment strategy discussions not dealt with elsewhere.
1nvest
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Re: Avoiding Pooled Nominee Accounts

#585749

Postby 1nvest » April 28th, 2023, 9:11 am

tug7 wrote:What is the cheapest/ easiest/ best way to buy and own funds & gilts that does not involve a pooled nominee account which all the cheaper platforms that I have looked at want to use for non ISA investments?

The world has transitioned to a era of depository rather than custodial. Deposit money with a bank and it becomes the banks money. Deposit money into a brokerage account and buy some shares and you've transferred money over to a brokerage who buy the shares that you like ... in their name. There are counter-party risks involved in such and I suspect that is the risk you are concerned about. Concentration risk is a major risk factor and having large amounts exposed to such depository risk whilst possibly having low year or year risk, sees that risk increase with time/years (when you're investing for 30+ years much can happen).

Assuming that is along the lines of your thinking ways to reduce that risk is to for instance shift bond (Gilt) risk over to the stock side.

US data PV and instead of 50/50 stock/gilts (bonds), 67/33 stock/cash (T-Bills or cash deposit) reasonably transferred bond risk over to the stock side. You can push that further and at around 80/20 stock/hard Pound currency you might broadly anticipate similar rewards to that of 50/50 stock/bonds. If instead of hard currency you held physical gold then that rotates back in the opposite direction, less stock weighting is required. But that does introduce drift/variance, is less inclined to track comparably from year to year, even though more broadly (multiple years) it does tend to periodically align/cross. 50/50 stock/gold for instance instead of 50/50 stock/gilts (bonds).

When gold is held in the form of legal tender currency, Sovereign/Britannia gold coins, then there's no purchase tax nor capital gains tax, and is physical in-hand (no counter-party risk).

Someone for instance might own their own home, a third of their total wealth, along with a third each in stocks and gold. When the gold is physical then two thirds of their wealth is in-hand, no counter-party risk. If the stock third is divided between a few brokers and funds, then single broker/fund risk is reduced to 11% of total wealth. Not that dissimilar to how much a stock index might decline in a single week at times. Thirds each in land (home), stock, in-hand (gold) was advocated by the Talmud millennia ago with safety/security in mind. Generational wealth also has a mantra a 'a third, a third, a third' in reflection of land, art, gold assets i.e. physical in-hand assets.

Yet another approach is as per Zvi Bodie, who instead of stock prefers 10/90 10x stock/treasury bills and where he secures that 10x leverage via Traded Options (monthly contracts/rebalancing). This provides a feel for along those lines PV where 100% stock is substituted by a third in a 3x stock and two thirds in bonds. For modest tracking you do however to rebalance periodically, something like yearly for 2x, 6 monthly for 3x, monthly for 10x.

Basically rather than totally avoiding depository/nominee you can alleviate the risk via asset allocation in order to reduce that risk down to more acceptable levels of comfort.

Alaric
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Re: Avoiding Pooled Nominee Accounts

#585771

Postby Alaric » April 28th, 2023, 10:44 am

1nvest wrote:Deposit money into a brokerage account and buy some shares and you've transferred money over to a brokerage who buy the shares that you like ... in their name.



It's not in the name of the broherage, rather it's in the name of their custodian. That's an important legal distinction.It's only when you make a bank deposit or buy an investment related insurance policy that the asset "belongs" to the bank or insurer.

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Re: Avoiding Pooled Nominee Accounts

#586026

Postby 1nvest » April 29th, 2023, 5:59 pm

Alaric wrote:
1nvest wrote:Deposit money into a brokerage account and buy some shares and you've transferred money over to a brokerage who buy the shares that you like ... in their name.

It's not in the name of the brokerage, rather it's in the name of their custodian. That's an important legal distinction. It's only when you make a bank deposit or buy an investment related insurance policy that the asset "belongs" to the bank or insurer.

In some cases the service (broker) and custodian can be under the same umbrella, ii for instance. ii services ltd (brokerage services), ii services nominee ltd (custodian). 'Ring fenced' 'Trust', but where there is a single concentration risk factor.

stevensfo
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Re: Avoiding Pooled Nominee Accounts

#586032

Postby stevensfo » April 29th, 2023, 6:56 pm

1nvest wrote:
Alaric wrote:It's not in the name of the brokerage, rather it's in the name of their custodian. That's an important legal distinction. It's only when you make a bank deposit or buy an investment related insurance policy that the asset "belongs" to the bank or insurer.

In some cases the service (broker) and custodian can be under the same umbrella, ii for instance. ii services ltd (brokerage services), ii services nominee ltd (custodian). 'Ring fenced' 'Trust', but where there is a single concentration risk factor.


I first heard the term 'ring fenced' many years ago when I discovered TMF c.1999 and I don't think that anybody ever got to the bottom of what it really means. Needless to say, it was a 'good thing' and we really shouldn't worry. Nothing to see here, move along please,,,, etc ;)

Last week, I bought a copy of Private Eye - first time in years - and immediately spotted the magic 'ring fenced' on page 43:

'Was Safe Hands Plans, the collapsed funeral plan provider, effectively acquired with the aid of money belonging to the 46,000 plan holders' supposedly ringfenced trust? Indeed it was. Confirmation comes from....' Private Eye No. 1596, 21 April 2023.


We can reveal that the trust fund had plunged £3.7million into the red – even though the money was supposed to be ring-fenced and protected.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bil ... -fund.html

Millions of pounds of customer money in the collapsed pre-paid funeral company Safe Hands Plans was funnelled to the company’s owner via the Cayman Islands
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/safe ... -0gv7k5808


Steve

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Re: Avoiding Pooled Nominee Accounts

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Postby Alaric » April 30th, 2023, 9:05 am

stevensfo wrote:I first heard the term 'ring fenced' many years ago when I discovered TMF c.1999 and I don't think that anybody ever got to the bottom of what it really means.

If properly set up, it just means that liquidators aren't able to seize the assets.

The only known loophole with custodians of investments is that liquidators can demand their fees from the assets.

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Re: Avoiding Pooled Nominee Accounts

#586148

Postby scrumpyjack » April 30th, 2023, 1:02 pm

I used to get share certificates for some of my larger holdings. I don't now if firms like HL still do this (ie buy shares through them then ask to withdraw them in certificated form).

The trouble is certificates are not risk free. If they get lost in the post that is a problem!!
I used to use TD Waterhouse, whose London office was very close to my office, so I could collect or hand in important documents like share certificates.

Eventually I decided it was all too much hassle and reckon that the chance of problems with a major broker like HL was extremely remote, so certificates were not worth the hassle.


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