Multi holdings

[Dod101]

Not sure this is the right spot but having just spent at least 40 minutes chasing around for some illusive dividends, I am wondering what others do. I have two ISAs and a SIPP. I try to ignore the SIPP. I draw nothing from it and it just sits there quietly ticking along. I reinvest the dividends from time to time. I suppose I see myself as a custodian for the next generation.

My main point though is that I can and do have the same share spread over at least two of these three entities, mostly over the two ISAs. It is a pain because I expect like most I record dividends as they appear in my accounts. I treat the two ISAs as one as best I can but it would be great to have all of my say Chesnara in one account whereas it is actually spread over both ISAs, and I think I have one share spread over all three. I cannot imagine that is worthwhile selling in one account and buying again in the other. Do people just live with that or has anyone got a good idea to make it easier than I currently find it?

Dod

[swill453]

My main point though is that I can and do have the same share spread over at least two of these three entities, mostly over the two ISAs. It is a pain because I expect like most I record dividends as they appear in my accounts. I treat the two ISAs as one as best I can but it would be great to have all of my say Chesnara in one account whereas it is actually spread over both ISAs, and I think I have one share spread over all three. I cannot imagine that is worthwhile selling in one account and buying again in the other. Do people just live with that or has anyone got a good idea to make it easier than I currently find it?

You could do partial 'in specie' transfers between them to end up with complete holdings in both ISAs.

Scott.

[Dod101]

My main point though is that I can and do have the same share spread over at least two of these three entities, mostly over the two ISAs. It is a pain because I expect like most I record dividends as they appear in my accounts. I treat the two ISAs as one as best I can but it would be great to have all of my say Chesnara in one account whereas it is actually spread over both ISAs, and I think I have one share spread over all three. I cannot imagine that is worthwhile selling in one account and buying again in the other. Do people just live with that or has anyone got a good idea to make it easier than I currently find it?

You could do partial 'in specie' transfers between them to end up with complete holdings in both ISAs.

Scott.

I did not know that. I will investigate.

Dod

[Laughton]

I'm in the same boat but look on it as a sort of double check - if dividend arrives in one ISA then why hasn't it in another?

Of course it also leads to big frustrations - for instance, why do dividends always arrive last in the HL ISA??? Often days later.

[SebsCat]

I'm in the same boat but look on it as a sort of double check - if dividend arrives in one ISA then why hasn't it in another?

Of course it also leads to big frustrations - for instance, why do dividends always arrive last in the HL ISA??? Often days later.

Similarly, why do some brokers have the decency to round to the nearest penny (up or down) whilst others are greedy and always round down? I think I even had one dividend with where the payment came to an exact penny amount and they still rounded down!

[swill453]

I'm in the same boat but look on it as a sort of double check - if dividend arrives in one ISA then why hasn't it in another?

Of course it also leads to big frustrations - for instance, why do dividends always arrive last in the HL ISA??? Often days later.

Similarly, why do some brokers have the decency to round to the nearest penny (up or down) whilst others are greedy and always round down? I think I even had one dividend with where the payment came to an exact penny amount and they still rounded down!

In all my years of investing, I have to say I have never done the sums to work out if my broker is even paying the correct money, let alone whether they are rounding up or down.

My bad, I suppose...

EDIT: I do track the payments over time, so any errors would probably be apparent.

Scott.

[88V8]

My main point though is that I can and do have the same share spread over at least two of these three entities, mostly over the two ISAs. It is a pain because I expect like most I record dividends as they appear in my accounts.

I have the sane problem as I record my trading a/c and ISA separately and likewise OH, so we have some shares in four places.

However, it is not essential to record each dividend. Your platforms will send you a year-end report, will they not?

I do not believe that the reputable platforms make errors in allocating vanilla divis - although they might mess up something arcane - so we are making work for ourselves to no real purpose. Shuffling shares to facilitate record keeping is surely worse than allowing the tax dog to wag the investment tail....?

V8

[mc2fool]

You could do partial 'in specie' transfers between them to end up with complete holdings in both ISAs.

I did not know that. I will investigate.

Yep, it's perfectly permissible and would be a solution for your split holdings. However, ISA transfers seem to be a prime area for broker cockups, and at the very least you should be prepared for long delays, with each broker blaming the other for the hold ups and you being stuck with playing piggy in the middle.

As part of your investigation I suggest you take a look through the Brokers and Share Dealing board where there have been a number of transfer experiences aired over the years. Or just start a thread there naming your brokers and asking for partial transfer experiences between them.

[Dod101]

All in all I guess that I might as well leave things as they are but I was frustrated at having to spend an age looking for an explanation as to why there was a shortfall with one share. The result was that I actually had a couple of hundred more in dividends than I thought in 2023 so it was not all bad.

Dod

[TUK020]

I also have shares spread over multiple accounts: ISA, SIPP, SIPP Drawdown.
I have added an extra sheet to HYPTUSS which lists the number of shares held in each account by ticker type, and totals them - this is then fed into the shareholding in the portfolio page.
I use HYPTUSS as my overall tracking tool, but do not attempt to verify each dividend payment in each account. Life is too short

[tjh290633]

Not sure this is the right spot but having just spent at least 40 minutes chasing around for some illusive dividends, I am wondering what others do. I have two ISAs and a SIPP. I try to ignore the SIPP. I draw nothing from it and it just sits there quietly ticking along. I reinvest the dividends from time to time. I suppose I see myself as a custodian for the next generation.

My main point though is that I can and do have the same share spread over at least two of these three entities, mostly over the two ISAs. It is a pain because I expect like most I record dividends as they appear in my accounts. I treat the two ISAs as one as best I can but it would be great to have all of my say Chesnara in one account whereas it is actually spread over both ISAs, and I think I have one share spread over all three. I cannot imagine that is worthwhile selling in one account and buying again in the other. Do people just live with that or has anyone got a good idea to make it easier than I currently find it?

Dod

The only time I had two separate accounts was when PEPs ceased, ISAs began, and never the twain shall meet. I made the decision not to duplicate holdings, partly for the sort of reason that you mention, but also because inevitably money would have been in the wrong place and trying to top up or top slice would have been completed. I have to say that the day when I could amalgamate the two could not come soon enough.

Mine had the same manager, so the amalgamation was simple. I know the argument for having more than one account manager, but with several PEPs already with unit fund managers, and the PEP/ISA being with a major bank, I felt there was no need to spread my custom further.

That having been said, the complications when certain corporate actions happen would be multiplied. I'm thinking back to various demergers or returns of capital, when one might have ended up with rump holdings of various shares, or odd sums of cash, which having a single ISA manager would have avoided.

TJH

[midgesgalore]

Not sure this is the right spot but having just spent at least 40 minutes chasing around for some illusive dividends, I am wondering what others do. I have two ISAs and a SIPP. I try to ignore the SIPP. I draw nothing from it and it just sits there quietly ticking along. I reinvest the dividends from time to time. I suppose I see myself as a custodian for the next generation.

My main point though is that I can and do have the same share spread over at least two of these three entities, mostly over the two ISAs. It is a pain because I expect like most I record dividends as they appear in my accounts. I treat the two ISAs as one as best I can but it would be great to have all of my say Chesnara in one account whereas it is actually spread over both ISAs, and I think I have one share spread over all three. I cannot imagine that is worthwhile selling in one account and buying again in the other. Do people just live with that or has anyone got a good idea to make it easier than I currently find it?

Dod

I had this issue with a pair of growth ITs in my ISA. I bought SSON, Smithson IT, and MNKS, Monks IT in my ISA and then later transferred them to my SIPP after I no longer needed the large cash pile in my SIPP for care-home fees. I already had holdings of these ITs in my SIPP.

My thinking post initial purchase is, where possible, to withdraw dividends from my ISA without needing to pay tax (as opposed to my SIPP - where I will pay tax) and keep these growth vehicles in my SIPP with "some" cash. Therefore I could make a reasonable manipulation without transferring funds.

As it turned out these ITs have both suffered from large discounts in the last year and both went into a negative return so I made purchases of these in my SIPP (from the cash mountain) to a rounded up value exceeding the ISA investment value + fees.
Since then I have sold the SSON IT in my ISA at an overall profit and am waiting until the MNKS IT share price gets slightly above 1095p / share to realise the capital in the ISA again.

So for a temporary period of some months I doubled my holding in both these investment trusts as the only compromise.

midgesgalore

[Gerry557]

Dod

As mentioned, you can transfer them between brokers. I have done this myself with mixed results but ultimately got there.

I even made a thread on the process and some of the issues I had with the process.

[Steveam]

This thread has spurred me into doing a bit of simple tidying-up.

I have 10 holdings which are spread over at least 2 “accounts” (either different brokers or GIA or ISA or SIPP. There is only a certain amount of easy tidying-up (if it’s just two different brokers and both GIA then easy; if ISA or SIPP or GIA then more awkward).

Best wishes,

Steve

[PrefInvestor]

Well holding the same investment in several different accounts is a common problem that many people have I’m sure. I try to buy so that so that all tranches of the same investment are all in the same account where I can, but often that isn’t possible if the available cash is available in one account and not available in another. Doing transfers to try and bring them together sounds really over the top to me, I see the situation as probably unavoidable.

My investment spreadsheet handles this situation without a problem though, each tranche purchase can be allocated to any account, dividends due on each account are displayed separately and all tranches across all accounts are presented as one holding on the overall portfolio summary display. No problem, but then the spreadsheet is my own creation and I envisaged this possibility from the start….

I think you just need a better spreadsheet for managing your investments !.

ATB

Pref

[Dod101]

I do but I cannot be bothered and so I have the problem. So I will just live with it I guess.I am concerned to ensure that I get all the dividends to which I am entitled and then in recording them properly. What prompted the post in the first place was that at the weekend, one dividend looked a bit low and on investigation I discovered that I had not included some dividends in another ISA. Added about 3% to my dividend total so not insignificant.

Dod

[midgesgalore]

Well holding the same investment in several different accounts is a common problem that many people have I’m sure. I try to buy so that so that all tranches of the same investment are all in the same account where I can, but often that isn’t possible if the available cash is available in one account and not available in another. Doing transfers to try and bring them together sounds really over the top to me, I see the situation as probably unavoidable.

My investment spreadsheet handles this situation without a problem though, each tranche purchase can be allocated to any account, dividends due on each account are displayed separately and all tranches across all accounts are presented as one holding on the overall portfolio summary display. No problem, but then the spreadsheet is my own creation and I envisaged this possibility from the start….

I think you just need a better spreadsheet for managing your investments !.

ATB

Pref

I do this too PrefInvestor.
I keep a single spreadsheet tab for each investment stock irrespective of which account it resides and breakout the organised income contributions from each account individually and cumulatively from all accounts. These investment incomes are reported in my front sheet summary.

It takes a few hours of concentration and no interruptions to copy and paste the computations to each of around 35-ish tabs but well worth it for the quality of the final summary.
Going forward this is almost no effort to maintain


midgesgalore

[PrefInvestor]

I do this too PrefInvestor.
I keep a single spreadsheet tab for each investment stock irrespective of which account it resides and breakout the organised income contributions from each account individually and cumulatively from all accounts. These investment incomes are reported in my front sheet summary.

It takes a few hours of concentration and no interruptions to copy and paste the computations to each of around 35-ish tabs but well worth it for the quality of the final summary.
Going forward this is almost no effort to maintain

midgesgalore

That’s interesting midgesgalore, as in income investor dividends are critically important to me. I feel that only by implementing a rigorous planning, maintenance and checking process do I feel that I know what’s going to be paid and when and can check that the correct amount is actually received.

A brief description of my process is as follows:-
1. Before the start of each new calendar year I create a single spreadsheet table listing all of the dividend payments due in the next year for all of my holdings. I do this using the dividendmax website which lists all of the dividend payments for an investment for some years ahead including XD dates, payment dates and amounts. For any investments I can’t obtain the information for in this way I take last years payment profile and include that, at this stage the list is only provisional anyway. My spreadsheet automatically looks up my current holding size for each account and has columns that calculate the dividend due for each payment for each investment and account and adds these together to get an overall total for a dividend payment. I then sort the list by XD date to produce a complete list of the expected payments for the year. Typically this exercise takes me a couple of hours to do for about 50 different holdings – but it only needs doing once a year, typically I do it in a December.

2. The list created in 1. is just a provisional list and the dates and amounts can and will change over time as the year progresses. I am registered with the LSE and receive emails when any RNS potentially affecting dividends or results on any of my holdings is issued, on receipt of any such email I check and update my dividend table. Periodically I check other dividend information sites such as exdividendate.co.uk and marketbeat.com which can also sometimes provide updates.

3. When an XD date on the spreadsheet arrives I check the status of the investment on the LSE to ensure that it has in fact gone XD. If it hasn’t then I do an internet search to find the correct date and amend my table.

4. My dividend table includes payment dates and when one of those dates arrives I check the relevant brokers for payment and check that the amount paid is what I was expecting. If it isn’t then I re-check the relevant RNS to correct my dividend table or contact my broker to obtain the reason for the discrepancy.

ATB

Pref

[77ss]

Not sure this is the right spot but having just spent at least 40 minutes chasing around for some illusive dividends, I am wondering what others do. I have two ISAs and a SIPP. I try to ignore the SIPP. I draw nothing from it and it just sits there quietly ticking along. I reinvest the dividends from time to time. I suppose I see myself as a custodian for the next generation.

My main point though is that I can and do have the same share spread over at least two of these three entities, mostly over the two ISAs. It is a pain because I expect like most I record dividends as they appear in my accounts. I treat the two ISAs as one as best I can but it would be great to have all of my say Chesnara in one account whereas it is actually spread over both ISAs, and I think I have one share spread over all three. I cannot imagine that is worthwhile selling in one account and buying again in the other. Do people just live with that or has anyone got a good idea to make it easier than I currently find it?

Dod

Well, it won't suit everybody, but I have recently consolidated all my ISA holdings into a single provider. Moving my ii shares into my iWeb account.

Prompted largely by my dislike of the ii interface and charging, but it has had the additional benefit of eliminating some 'multi-holdings' - as well as simplifying my record keeping. Getting all my divis in one place also means that I can reinvest them earlier.

I still have 3 'multi-holdings' involving my SIPP and dealing account, but I hope to deal with these over the next couple of years.

[tjh290633]

I do this too PrefInvestor.
I keep a single spreadsheet tab for each investment stock irrespective of which account it resides and breakout the organised income contributions from each account individually and cumulatively from all accounts. These investment incomes are reported in my front sheet summary.

It takes a few hours of concentration and no interruptions to copy and paste the computations to each of around 35-ish tabs but well worth it for the quality of the final summary.
Going forward this is almost no effort to maintain

midgesgalore

That’s interesting midgesgalore, as in income investor dividends are critically important to me. I feel that only by implementing a rigorous planning, maintenance and checking process do I feel that I know what’s going to be paid and when and can check that the correct amount is actually received.

A brief description of my process is as follows:-
1. Before the start of each new calendar year I create a single spreadsheet table listing all of the dividend payments due in the next year for all of my holdings. I do this using the dividendmax website which lists all of the dividend payments for an investment for some years ahead including XD dates, payment dates and amounts. For any investments I can’t obtain the information for in this way I take last years payment profile and include that, at this stage the list is only provisional anyway. My spreadsheet automatically looks up my current holding size for each account and has columns that calculate the dividend due for each payment for each investment and account and adds these together to get an overall total for a dividend payment. I then sort the list by XD date to produce a complete list of the expected payments for the year. Typically this exercise takes me a couple of hours to do for about 50 different holdings – but it only needs doing once a year, typically I do it in a December.

2. The list created in 1. is just a provisional list and the dates and amounts can and will change over time as the year progresses. I am registered with the LSE and receive emails when any RNS potentially affecting dividends or results on any of my holdings is issued, on receipt of any such email I check and update my dividend table. Periodically I check other dividend information sites such as exdividendate.co.uk and marketbeat.com which can also sometimes provide updates.

3. When an XD date on the spreadsheet arrives I check the status of the investment on the LSE to ensure that it has in fact gone XD. If it hasn’t then I do an internet search to find the correct date and amend my table.

4. My dividend table includes payment dates and when one of those dates arrives I check the relevant brokers for payment and check that the amount paid is what I was expecting. If it isn’t then I re-check the relevant RNS to correct my dividend table or contact my broker to obtain the reason for the discrepancy.

ATB

Pref

It strikes me that you are going a long way round to achieve your objectives. I have a spreadsheet of 12 month's dividends in chronological payment order, with columns from left to right:
Company name
Announcement date
XD date
Payment date
Shares held
Dividend per share
Dividend amount
Dividend actually paid
Cumulative total of dividends expected
Cumulative total of dividends received

At the top of the dividends received column is the cash balance before the next expected dividend is received. The data is the latest available, either that applying last year or the latest to be announced via RNS posts. Periodically I update the starting balance and then increase the dates for the dividends already paid by one year. Then sort on Payment Date.

The problem that I see with your method is that the linkage to the number of shares held may be incorrect, if shares are sold XD or if shares are added after the XD date.

I use conditional formatting to highlight today's date and for dividends unchanged, increased, decreased, passed or awaiting currency declarations.

I store an abridged copy of RNS announcements with the essential data about each payment. I also keep a spreadsheet for each financial year as a record of dividends received. This just entails copying the data for each payment from the main spreadsheet.

Additionally I have a chronological record of events for each share held, from first purchase to eventual disposal.

It serves me well and anomalies are easily spotted.

TJH