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S&P 500 at 5,000?

Stocks and Shares ISA , Choosing funds for ISA's, risk factors for funds etc
Investment strategy discussions not dealt with elsewhere.
SalvorHardin
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Re: S&P 500 at 5,000?

#645746

Postby SalvorHardin » February 8th, 2024, 9:48 pm

Bubblesofearth wrote:The more detailed the analysis the more likely you will put success down to skill rather than luck. The oil price, like the value of major currencies, is notoriously difficult to predict. Millions of analysts are constantly looking at it. To believe you have an edge is hubris in the extreme. Without the big rise in the price of oil the Soco story, and the story of many other O&G companies, would have played out very differently.

We weren't analysing the oil price, we were mostly looking at the discoveries and the reserves, plus looking at what companies were selling for when taken over ("drilling on Wall Street"). There was a lot of information out there that has nothing to do with oil price forecasting.

The big thing with Soco was the discoveries, which the market was slow to react to. The oil price was secondary. Dragon Oil was all about going through the reservoir reports, in particular whether the reserves had been damaged by the inadequate maintenance by the post Soviet Union management.

If the market is perfectly efficient (it isn't, the behavioural economists have proven that) it's still perfectly possible for investors to regularly be on the right hand side of the mid point of the Gaussian distribution of investment returns (bearing in mind the Central Limit Theorem applies to the population of investment returns). And if you're having problems following that last sentence, that was the idea.

You won't be getting any more replies from me. Into the foe box with you. It's people like you that are increasingly putting people like me off TLF.

Envy is the worst of the seven deadly sins. Feel free to wallow in it.
Last edited by SalvorHardin on February 8th, 2024, 9:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

simoan
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Re: S&P 500 at 5,000?

#645747

Postby simoan » February 8th, 2024, 9:49 pm

Lootman wrote:
simoan wrote:It’s the VIX that worries me. It just keeps marching up and there’s so little volatility. It makes me feel uneasy.

A Vix of 12.79 is high?

https://www.google.com/search?q=vix+sto ... e&ie=UTF-8

No. It’s low. Do you not find the lack of volatility slightly worrying? The S&P is going up in pretty much a straight line for 3 months now.

Lootman
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Re: S&P 500 at 5,000?

#645749

Postby Lootman » February 8th, 2024, 9:56 pm

simoan wrote:
Lootman wrote:A Vix of 12.79 is high?

https://www.google.com/search?q=vix+sto ... e&ie=UTF-8

No. It’s low. Do you not find the lack of volatility slightly worrying? The S&P is going up in pretty much a straight line.

I see what you mean. The Vix is a fear index and if it is high then it is probably already too late to sell or hedge.

I have about 10% in cash and have stopped buying. A 3-month long at-the-money put option on the S&P 500 can give me some downside protection until the new tax year.

simoan
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Re: S&P 500 at 5,000?

#645759

Postby simoan » February 8th, 2024, 10:27 pm

Lootman wrote:
simoan wrote:No. It’s low. Do you not find the lack of volatility slightly worrying? The S&P is going up in pretty much a straight line.

I see what you mean. The Vix is a fear index and if it is high then it is probably already too late to sell or hedge.

The fact the index is just marching higher and there’s so little volatility indicates to me there’s complacency at play. We’ll see how long that lasts…

GoSeigen
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Re: S&P 500 at 5,000?

#656009

Postby GoSeigen » March 26th, 2024, 5:25 pm

Bubblesofearth wrote:Seems survivor bias is alive and well on TLF. Assuming the anecdotals are even true and not just cherries plucked from otherwise ordinary performances. Cherries we've been fed many times before by the usual suspects on here.



You know very well BoE that is not cherry picking or survivor bias. We had long discussions in real time about my investment views and I put my money where my mouth was. One very memorable example was where you said the only direction for gilt yields was up when I claimed they would fall a good 100bp further. On the back of your scoffing I actually bought a bunch of gilts and within the year turned some 20% IIRC, with yields indeed falling 100bp. You were always a gilt sceptic -- in the middle of an epic gilt bull run.

The OP asked for actual experiences of Fools here and that is what I and some others were giving, don't see why the ad hominem attack was necessary in the circumstances.


GS

Lootman
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Re: S&P 500 at 5,000?

#656024

Postby Lootman » March 26th, 2024, 5:51 pm

GoSeigen wrote:One very memorable example was where you said the only direction for gilt yields was up when I claimed they would fall a good 100bp further. On the back of your scoffing I actually bought a bunch of gilts and within the year turned some 20% IIRC, with yields indeed falling 100bp. You were always a gilt sceptic -- in the middle of an epic gilt bull run.

To be fair, someone who consistently gets market calls wrong can be a very useful contrarian indicator. One market theory is that when an investment story features on the front page of Time magazine, it represents a cyclical top for that idea. :D

mrodent
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Re: S&P 500 at 5,000?

#656267

Postby mrodent » March 27th, 2024, 3:09 pm

Lootman wrote:To be fair, someone who consistently gets market calls wrong can be a very useful contrarian indicator. One market theory is that when an investment story features on the front page of Time magazine, it represents a cyclical top for that idea. :D


*Froth-contrarian* factor-investing, perfectly legitimate, if undertaken using a rational, systematic approach. Stats please!

As ever the problem might be not when to sell, but when to buy again: what unfrothy things, and when? And why?
Last edited by mrodent on March 27th, 2024, 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kempiejon
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Re: S&P 500 at 5,000?

#656270

Postby kempiejon » March 27th, 2024, 3:16 pm

There's another of those stock market tales, I've seen it variously attributed. https://www.pitzlfinancial.com/blog/ode-shoeshine-boy
One of my favorite stories of wealth creation is that of the Kennedy family.

In 1929, at the height of an economic boom in America, Joseph Kennedy Sr. (father of JFK) was working as a stockbroker on Wall Street. As the story goes, Joseph was walking around when he decided to sit down for a shoeshine. While polishing his shoes, the young worker gave Joseph some of his favorite stock picks. When Joseph heard the shoeshine boy giving out stock tips, he figured the party was about to end, and it was time to get out of the market. Joseph proceeded to exit his positions in the market and bought short positions that bet on the market going down.

Shortly after that, the stock market entered a free fall. On Monday, October 28, 1929, the market dropped about 13%. The next day it fell another 12%. These became better known as Black Monday and Black Tuesday, and ushered the United States into The Great Depression.

Now did Joseph profit from this type of bet? Absolutely. It's estimated that he made somewhere north of $150 million during that period, which equates to roughly $3.5 billion in today’s dollars.

mrodent
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Re: S&P 500 at 5,000?

#656274

Postby mrodent » March 27th, 2024, 3:34 pm

Joseph proceeded to exit his positions in the market and bought short positions that bet on the market going down.


Apparently another Joseph Kennedy did the same thing, in 1928. He talked to the very same shoeshine boy. He lost 90% of his money as the market continued to rise and, at his wit's end, put the remaining 10% back into booming stocks in September 1929.

Quantum theory predicts that there is an infinite number of Joseph Kennedys in existence at any one time, and this has been proven scientifically by YouTube.


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